Is it okay to hit your children?

[Ryan2065]

As a matter of fact I find it refreshing to see that the people here are thinkers who form their own opinions and give their reasoning for them, instead of just citing other people's work all the time and showing no thought of their own.

If you notice, I cite my evidence after I voice my opinion. In most all my posts in threads I give my opinion first in a post, and then I move on and give my opinion a second time (when someone goes against it) and back it up with facts. I find that this is the best way to get my point across. Give my opinion, then show that others think the same way (experts.)

Ahh, and of course all these "studies" were completely on the up and up and none of the children knew that they were being observed ever huh? Look, you can quote all you want the many studies you want to refer to. Have at it and have fun. But, seriously, as a person who has gone through many college courses on varying psychology classes that has read and even duplicated some of these studies I can tell you that you can manipulate any of the findings, as well as your sample, to get the exact results you are looking for. Psychologists seem to have a tendency of thinking they know more than they do simply because they have a degree. They are self proclaimed experts that magically KNOW how EVERYONE is because of sampling a portion of the population...and every random samplng isn't exactly random if you think about it.

Did you even read any of the studies that I posted? Actually I don't think that you did. Because if you did, you would notice that it is a psychologist saying that a panel of judges skewed the data to make it look like spanking was harmful to a child when most of the studies they did showed that they were not harmful. And its nice that you took a few psychology courses and now believe that you know more than the experts. Seeing as you disregard the studies I posted without even reading them saying that the "experts" were more than likely wrong.

The actual evidence that I posted was about a panel of experts in their fields looking at all of the evidence for and against spanking that they could get their hands on and forming an opinion. That opinion was:

The co-chairs of the conference concluded, "Given a relatively "healthy' family life in a supportive environment, spanking in and of itself is not detrimental to a child or predictive of later problems."

Then the man went on to say that the AAP took this evidence, and only looked at the evidence against spanking and then came out with a statement that said all spanking is bad no matter what. Please actually read what I present before you attack it.

As for "jibberish", the people here are voicing their opinions...and there is NOTHING wrong with opinion in a debate. Opinions are formed through knowledge, experience, and those come with age as well. Just because not everyone here is citing what others say doesn't make their statements any less valid.

Have you ever witnessed a debate? I doubt you have. Out of 140 posts here only 3 of them actually have referenced material. 98% of this thread is opinion, 2 % of it is cited fact. Please show me one debate that is like that. As I stated before, opinions are nice in a debate, but without fact, each opinion holds equal weight. The way to debate is to share your opinion and then back it up with fact.

 

[Kowalski]

Ryan, you seem big on so-called fact, but someway short of any first hand experience, I suggest that as you aren't a parent, you kindly shut up...

Cheers

K

 

[Draka]

Did you even read any of the studies that I posted?

I honestly did not...nor did I care to. As Turk pointed out for every one you post someone could post one that showed the opposite. I have had my fill of these things.

Have you ever witnessed a debate? I doubt you have. Out of 140 posts here only 3 of them actually have referenced material. 98% of this thread is opinion, 2 % of it is cited fact. Please show me one debate that is like that. As I stated before, opinions are nice in a debate, but without fact, each opinion holds equal weight. The way to debate is to share your opinion and then back it up with fact.

You can doubt all you like. And by the way, I never said I know more than the "experts", but I criticize every source and every study I see. Just because someone may be respected in their field doesn't make them necessarily right.

And as for debates...this is not a professional debate forum now is it? This is a religious forum...and those discussions alone can not be backed up with "facts". As for anything else...we are having an internal debate with other forum members. We are not trying to "win" or "lose" a debate here. We are sharing views and beliefs. And I repeat, there is nothing wrong with that. And just because someone holds a view you don't and they don't have links to back it up doesn't make the view wrong. It makes it personal based on their own observations and experience. Not "jibberish".

 

[Ryan2065]

Ryan, you seem big on so-called fact, but someway short of any first hand experience, I suggest that as you aren't a parent, you kindly shut up...

Its so nice to have an opponent like you. Makes my side sound so much better to anyone wandering in and reading this.

 

[Kowalski]

Well if you think so, but I don't think so. I place decency and humanity above data, and have the utmost confidence in my stance.

cheers

K

 

[Ryan2065]

I honestly did not...nor did I care to. As Turk pointed out for every one you post someone could post one that showed the opposite. I have had my fill of these things.

Its nice that you did not read my sources, but yet still found a way to critizie the way they came about their conclusions. I do not mind an opposing view, but if you are going to critize my sources, the least you can do is read them.

You can doubt all you like. And by the way, I never said I know more than the "experts", but I criticize every source and every study I see. Just because someone may be respected in their field doesn't make them necessarily right.

Right, but you didn't actually see this study at all but you still were able to critize it. Based on what you said I could critize ANY science study and call it false. Please refrain from posting an experts opinion on another thread, I can just refer you back to this thread where you apparently have the feeling that psychologists are prone to error and experts opinions are not to be taken seriously.

And as for debates...this is not a professional debate forum now is it? This is a religious forum...and those discussions alone can not be backed up with "facts".

Thats nice, this is not a religious debate, however, so it can be backed up with facts and studies.

As for anything else...we are having an internal debate with other forum members. We are not trying to "win" or "lose" a debate here. We are sharing views and beliefs.

You do not seem to get it do you? The sharing of views and beliefs is a discussion. If you do not want me to critize other people please keep out of the debate threads. Here we are having a debate and people are trying to win and lose. Any person who posted more than once (meaning anyone who posted their opinion and then defended it) is trying to win the debate on some level. Otherwise they would feel no need to defend their position.

And I repeat, there is nothing wrong with that. And just because someone holds a view you don't and they don't have links to back it up doesn't make the view wrong. It makes it personal based on their own observations and experience. Not "jibberish"

The thing is, after you post your opinion once, if you do not back it up with facts the second time, you are only restating your origional point and usually offer no more useful points. The first posts of everyone where they voice their opinion on the matter is not jibberish, the ways they decided to back up their views is. The thread basically reads like this...
Person for Spanking: "I believe spanking is good!"
Person against spanking: "Well I believe it is bad."
Person for spanking: "I think its good!"

And so on and so on.

 

[Draka]

Well if you think so, but I don't think so. I place decency and humanity above data, and have the utmost confidence in my stance.

cheers

K

As do I

 

[Ryan2065]

Well if you think so, but I don't think so. I place decency and humanity above data, and have the utmost confidence in my stance.

No you place immediate decency and humanity above data. You don't care what happens in the long run as long as everyone is PC here and now.

 

[Kowalski]

Yes Ryan, but your what I term a second hand expert, an expert only from the perspective of others, I rely on first hand experience, both with my children, my friends children and my grandchildren.

Cheers
K

 

[Draka]

Its nice that you did not read my sources, but yet still found a way to critizie the way they came about their conclusions. I do not mind an opposing view, but if you are going to critize my sources, the least you can do is read them.

I did not criticize your sources inparticular now did I? I simply stated how sources in general can be wrong and data can be manipulated now didn't I?

Right, but you didn't actually see this study at all but you still were able to critize it. Based on what you said I could critize ANY science study and call it false. Please refrain from posting an experts opinion on another thread, I can just refer you back to this thread where you apparently have the feeling that psychologists are prone to error and experts opinions are not to be taken seriously.

As I am not prone to posting others' findings ad-nauseum in order to make my stance look better I have no worry of that. As Kowalski has said...I base my stance on decency and humanity...I need no one else to tell me what those are. And am quite comfortable with my stance and how I not only present it, but anything else as well.

Thats nice, this is not a religious debate, however, so it can be backed up with facts and studies.

Didn't say it was now did I?

You do not seem to get it do you? The sharing of views and beliefs is a discussion. If you do not want me to critize other people please keep out of the debate threads. Here we are having a debate and people are trying to win and lose. Any person who posted more than once (meaning anyone who posted their opinion and then defended it) is trying to win the debate on some level. Otherwise they would feel no need to defend their position.

Just because you may be adamant about being the final and utmost word on everything doesn't mean others are. And I will enter into any thread I want to, debate or not. If you have such a problem with how people debate here then perhaps you are the one who should avoid these threads...because you are the only one complaining and throwing a tantrum about it.

The thing is, after you post your opinion once, if you do not back it up with facts the second time, you are only restating your origional point and usually offer no more useful points. The first posts of everyone where they voice their opinion on the matter is not jibberish, the ways they decided to back up their views is. The thread basically reads like this...
Person for Spanking: "I believe spanking is good!"
Person against spanking: "Well I believe it is bad."
Person for spanking: "I think its good!"

And so on and so on.

And if that is how you see this thread you obviously haven't done any real reading either.

 

[Ryan2065]

Just because you may be adamant about being the final and utmost word on everything doesn't mean others are. And I will enter into any thread I want to, debate or not. If you have such a problem with how people debate here then perhaps you are the one who should avoid these threads...because you are the only one complaining and throwing a tantrum about it.

Really, I am the only one complaining about it? Then why was this thread started?
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20251

I wasn't even the one who started it. Maybe you should read it.

 

[Draka]

Really, I am the only one complaining about it? Then why was this thread started?
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20251

I wasn't even the one who started it. Maybe you should read it.

I have read it thank you...but as you are the only one who seems to be having a problem with this particular thread (which was going fine until you had to put your two cents in) perhaps you should back out. We were getting along fine without your criticism and calling us spouters of "jibberish".

 

[Kowalski]

Yes, I see. Well, bashing kids is not something one wants to see so-called empirical reporting on. The fact of the matter is , is that violence against children by adults is wrong wrong and more wrong. and we need no reports from any so-called experts who may well be flawed in their own inner workings.

Cheers

K

 

[Darkdale]

No you place immediate decency and humanity above data. You don't care what happens in the long run as long as everyone is PC here and now.

That was the point I was attempting to make earlier; and they are completely intolerant of anyone who wants to parent differently.

 

[Aqualung]

That was the point I was attempting to make earlier; and they are completely intolerant of anyone who wants to parent differently.

yeah. I understood what you meant.

 

[Kowalski]

That was the point I was attempting to make earlier; and they are completely intolerant of anyone who wants to parent differently.

If you mean by that, we are against violent conduct carried out on children, then you are at least correct in that assumption.

K

 

[Ryan2065]

Sigh, I can only hope the others see both of your ignorance.

Yes, I see. Well, bashing kids is not something one wants to see so-called empirical reporting on. The fact of the matter is , is that violence against children by adults is wrong wrong and more wrong. and we need no reports from any so-called experts who may well be flawed in their own inner workings.

That is really nice. I was "bashed" as a child as you call it, and that was all fine and dandy. But the spankings I recieved were not the worst punishment. The thing I never wanted to happen was the yelling. I could handle spanking just fine, the yelling always brought me to tears. I would rather someone be spanked by a loving parent then have that person be yelled at by that same parent. This is exactly what you people are wanting the parents to do. Yell at their kids. Yelling, to me, does more damage than spanking.

I have read it thank you...but as you are the only one who seems to be having a problem with this particular thread (which was going fine until you had to put your two cents in) perhaps you should back out. We were getting along fine without your criticism and calling us spouters of "jibberish".

I believe I am done with you. I offer evidence to support my view and you don't even offer me the benefit of the doubt to read them over before you critize them. That is a great insult to me Draka. I'm done.

 

[Jaymes]

I don't think anyone with their head screwed on straight is suggesting parents verbally abuse their kids instead of spanking.

 

[constantine]

I have never hit my kids. My father spanked me once with a brush then I learnt my lesson. He used it as a threat that I payed close attention to and I would quickly fall in line.. He didnt have to hit me again because his loud angering voice was ,to me...a possible threat of getting the brush.

When I was 15 I told my mom to f off and he grabbed me by the throat and slammed me into the wall and punched me in the head a few times .
Two times in my life my father used physical discipline on me and I'm glad he did.. He earned my respect ,when he talked I did what I was told (most times)... I never talked back to my dad.
I think the worst thing is yelling. When you discipline a child you must reinforce it with understanding and assurance that we all make mistakes but must learn from them, so this is why disciplinary action must take place. I know how hard it is to reason with kids.Kids are proud of their accomplishments, so if they remember the lesson learned they should be aware of how proud their parents are of them.
They all need their space to be kids because the most important memmory to have as a kid is all the fun things you did.
I expect my children to be polite to people and behave in public,and to try their best in school and sports. I expect them to make stupid mistakes ,fight with each other and want to fit in with the other kids and be rebellious.
I have no problem if the wife smacks their butt and often times(i must admit) it gets frustrating raising children and I'll tell my wife to smack em.
I know I will not have a problem punching them in the head when they're teenagers like my dad did to me.
I can still remember the night 20 yrs ago.... My dad saying....... who you think you are boy....I'll f.n.beat the hell outta ya boy ... nobody talks to my wife like that ...you lil f.n. *******
and there's my mom screaming at my dad to stop.... stop hurting my baby... oh my poor baby....
Parents must earn their kids respect. A little smack on the butt may be a good way to earn it....
I might give it a try soon myself.....once... just once.... something they'll always remember and realize it actually made them a better person for it....it doesnt diminish them like insults do, and yelling criticisms ,only makes them feel worthless..
There's certainly not a fine line between physical discipline and child abuse. They are on the opposite sides of the spectrum.

 

[Jaymes]

From a quick Google search... obviously not an unbiased source. It makes an interesting point, though.

"Children in seventeen countries are growing up without being hit in homes, in daycare or in schools. Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Austria, Finland and other countries that have banned corporal punishment of children in general have low rates of interpersonal violence compared to the United States. Professor Adrienne Haeuser who studied these educational laws in Europe in 1981 and 1991 said “Children are receiving more discipline since the law in Sweden passed. Parents think twice and tend to rely more on verbal conflict resolution to manage their children”. Discipline is important. Discipline means “to teach”. We need more discipline of children such as explaining and reasoning, establishing rules and consequences, praising good behavior in children and being good models for or children. Such methods develop a child's conscience and self-control. Children who experience teaching discipline are less likely to misbehave and more likely to become self-disciplined adults."