Jeremiah
Well-Known Member
"I wonder when the civilized people will come to deliver us from our culture."
I pray everyday for the flying saucers to come take me away.
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Is everything relative? The "Prime Directive" is evil
- Thread starter ATAT
- Start date
"I wonder when the civilized people will come to deliver us from our culture."
I pray everyday for the flying saucers to come take me away.
lemo
Member
Your full of monkey knowledge....but empty....lol
But beware, they may be green lizards in disguise who wants to eat you!
(V reference.)
BruceDLimber
Well-Known Member
Greetings!
According to the Baha'i scriptures, ALMOST everything is relative! I quote:
Such an existence is a contingent and not an absolute existence, inasmuch as the former is preceded by a cause, whilst the latter is independent thereof. Absolute existence is strictly confined to God, exalted be His glory. Well is it with them that apprehend this truth.
Gleanings, LXXXI, p. 187
Best!
Bruce
According to the Baha'i scriptures, ALMOST everything is relative! I quote:
Such an existence is a contingent and not an absolute existence, inasmuch as the former is preceded by a cause, whilst the latter is independent thereof. Absolute existence is strictly confined to God, exalted be His glory. Well is it with them that apprehend this truth.
Gleanings, LXXXI, p. 187
Best!
Bruce
Caladan
Agnostic Pantheist
Its unrealistic to expect a native tribe to make a transition from an isolated communal life in the deep jungle to modern life. the idea that modern civilizations are somehow more moral is questionable on many levels, only in the last century dozens of millions were perished inside and around the heart of European culture. we still live in a dog eat dog world on many levels, native tribes may at least have the moral and communal dynamics which support the individual inside their society without the web of complexities of the modern world. without people contaminating their spiritual visions, their delicate relations with the forest, and without erasing their culture with progress.
Soga
New Member
You say the doctors would treat (previously unknown diseases) at a discount price. Unless the first contact with the outside world is a CDC team in full biological isolation suits the chances are good no villager would survive long enough for a doctor to come. But lets set that aside for now.
And how are the villagers going to pay for treatment, even at the discount price you mention? The village probably has no idea of money. Are you going to build a school to teach the western concept of "money" before treating the diseases killing the village? Or are the doctors going to accept barter goods? If so what would be acceptable? Gems? Wood? Animal skin?
Ok Say contact is made, then what? They don't have the knowledge to even integrate into any "civilized" society. Should we make them dependt on forms of welfare? The adults will never be able to learn how to exist in modern society. Should we just kill all the adults and put the children in "schools" to learn how to exist in our society, robbing them of their cultural identity? It's not that far fetched, look how Americans treated American Indians.
As to your first question, "Is it all relative" I would say "yes" to a certian extent. You mentioned things like rape and child abuse that you say are examples of actions that every culture holds as "bad." However not ever society views these actions as evil. I can not think of a single act that is viewed as "evil" or "wrong" in every society. Even cannibalism and incest are accepted in some cultures. Are you going to tell these societies they are "bad?"
In order for one culture or society to be "bad" or "good" there must be some Supreme Moral/Ethical Judge. For many people they view morality and ethics through the lens of religion. But again you come back to the issue of which religion (or other moral/ethical system) has the final authority of "goodness."
From your post it sounds if you have set yourself up as judge of all cultures. I missed the ballot where you were elected, because I'd have put myself on that ballot.
You call the village a hellhole because they don't have modern amenities, but if i remember from my anthoropoly course, most hunter gatherer societies only work approx 10 hours out of the week to secure food. Most people in a "civilazied" have to work 40-60 hours per work to earn enough money to support their family. Additionally many hunter gathers are egalitarian, which can be argued to be the most fair way to distribute wealth.
You mention medicine and disease they can't heal. We suffer those in the most advanced societies in the world. The level of treatment you receive is entirely dependent on you level of wealth. Unless you believe that a street bum receives the same level of care as say Bill Gates (one of the richest men in the world). But what about the average person? They only receive treatment up the level of their health-care plan. With meany diseases this only prolongs the inevitable. I remember a study that concludes that many "primitive" societies do not suffer the same diseases that "modern" cultures do. Their diet is entirely organic, and they don't come into contact with the contaminates that we do. I acknowledge that are some conditions that we could probably treat better than could. But does the harm of "contact" out weigh the few positives we could bring?
And we circle back to the position of who gets to decide that? So yes it is relative.
And how are the villagers going to pay for treatment, even at the discount price you mention? The village probably has no idea of money. Are you going to build a school to teach the western concept of "money" before treating the diseases killing the village? Or are the doctors going to accept barter goods? If so what would be acceptable? Gems? Wood? Animal skin?
Ok Say contact is made, then what? They don't have the knowledge to even integrate into any "civilized" society. Should we make them dependt on forms of welfare? The adults will never be able to learn how to exist in modern society. Should we just kill all the adults and put the children in "schools" to learn how to exist in our society, robbing them of their cultural identity? It's not that far fetched, look how Americans treated American Indians.
As to your first question, "Is it all relative" I would say "yes" to a certian extent. You mentioned things like rape and child abuse that you say are examples of actions that every culture holds as "bad." However not ever society views these actions as evil. I can not think of a single act that is viewed as "evil" or "wrong" in every society. Even cannibalism and incest are accepted in some cultures. Are you going to tell these societies they are "bad?"
In order for one culture or society to be "bad" or "good" there must be some Supreme Moral/Ethical Judge. For many people they view morality and ethics through the lens of religion. But again you come back to the issue of which religion (or other moral/ethical system) has the final authority of "goodness."
From your post it sounds if you have set yourself up as judge of all cultures. I missed the ballot where you were elected, because I'd have put myself on that ballot.
You call the village a hellhole because they don't have modern amenities, but if i remember from my anthoropoly course, most hunter gatherer societies only work approx 10 hours out of the week to secure food. Most people in a "civilazied" have to work 40-60 hours per work to earn enough money to support their family. Additionally many hunter gathers are egalitarian, which can be argued to be the most fair way to distribute wealth.
You mention medicine and disease they can't heal. We suffer those in the most advanced societies in the world. The level of treatment you receive is entirely dependent on you level of wealth. Unless you believe that a street bum receives the same level of care as say Bill Gates (one of the richest men in the world). But what about the average person? They only receive treatment up the level of their health-care plan. With meany diseases this only prolongs the inevitable. I remember a study that concludes that many "primitive" societies do not suffer the same diseases that "modern" cultures do. Their diet is entirely organic, and they don't come into contact with the contaminates that we do. I acknowledge that are some conditions that we could probably treat better than could. But does the harm of "contact" out weigh the few positives we could bring?
And we circle back to the position of who gets to decide that? So yes it is relative.
Jeremiah
Well-Known Member
You forgot the period and it should be you're.
McBell
mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
it is rather interesting how those who try so hard to convince others of their superior intellect end up being the ones who show just how ignorant they truly are.
lemo
Member
Do you know what monkey knowledge is?
Jeremiah
Well-Known Member
I am not worried about impressing you.
Jeremiah
Well-Known Member
Never heard the term before.
lemo
Member
So where is your intellect?
Alceste
Vagabond
May I humbly suggest you look at the real world results of the "civilization" of indigenous people rather than episodes of Star Trek before reaching your ethical conclusions.
How exactly do you believe we are different? Has the West put a stop to rape, exploitation, warfare, superstition, slavery, ignorance or any of the "evils" of more primitive cultures? On the contrary, we have exported exploitation, superstition and warfare on an unprecedented scale - so enthusiastically that we risk destroying most of the forms of life currently living on this planet, including ourselves.
Maybe Klingon missionaries are exceptionally well-behaved, but here on Earth, when indigenous people fall under the influence of the Christian church, the missionaries do the bulk of the raping.
I think people should be left alone unless they request help. It has nothing to do with whose culture is "superior". IMO, the desire to forcefully export your own culture to others is shameless hubris, ignorance and arrogance, and deeply immoral in and of itself. If you want to find somebody to pull up out of the darkness, start by looking in the mirror.
PolyHedral
Superabacus Mystic
Intellect != knowledge.
Because we were not given a choice as to the time, to whom, and or where we were to be born to, makes all of us of the same.
Those born in remote areas of the world had no choice either.
So, my understanding of who God is, via the bible, I understand we have a responsibility to our brothers and sisters.
The terms Brothers and sisters is a term used to denote that under the creative work and the salvation work of God, we are brothers and sisters and encouraged to love one another, our enemies.
God planted the tree of knowledge of good and evil as a staple in the human element, giving us the ability to exercise it at will.
So the potential for evil will always exist and our responsibility to subdue it.
here and everywhere.
Blessings, AJ
tumbleweed41
Resident Liberal Hippie
The same old story....
Inuit Elder (to Missionary)- I am a good moral man who honers his elders, respects others, provides for my family...if I had not heard of your God, would my soul have been in jeopardy?
Missionary- No, God will not punish you if you are a moral person who has never heard of him.
Inuit Elder- But now that you have told me of your God, I must accept him, or else my soul will be in jeopardy?
Missionary- Yes, now you have to make a choice.
Inuit Elder- Why did you tell me?
Inuit Elder (to Missionary)- I am a good moral man who honers his elders, respects others, provides for my family...if I had not heard of your God, would my soul have been in jeopardy?
Missionary- No, God will not punish you if you are a moral person who has never heard of him.
Inuit Elder- But now that you have told me of your God, I must accept him, or else my soul will be in jeopardy?
Missionary- Yes, now you have to make a choice.
Inuit Elder- Why did you tell me?
Jeremiah
Well-Known Member
Ok, say it's not some previously untouched society in the middle of the Amazon. Say it's some tribe in Ethiopia who knows about us and we know about them, but they've largely kept their culture and we've largely left them alone. We know that they practice female circumcision. Is it unethical to try to persuade them to abandon this practice? Is it unethical to not try to persuade them?
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