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Is Catholicism true and...

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
1. Is Catholicism true and

2. Once enough people find a thing to be not true, can it unite humans sufficiently to bring about global unity?

It's been a while since I looked into Catholicism, and I seem to recall (though my memory is not a particularly good one) coming to the personal conclusion (in my opinion) that most of its central claims fall into the category of highly improbable to be true.

I also believe that if enough people discover a religion to be untrue it loses its power to unite those people and that reaching global unity will become improbable without some means of eliminating the dissenters.

Inspired by the thread;
Will empire return?.

In my opinion.
 

Ella S.

*temp banned*
If by "Catholicism" you mean "the whole of the doctrines set forward by the Catholic Church," then Catholicism is metaphysically impossible. The Trinitarian interpretation of the Holy Trinity violates the Law of Identity. This makes Trinitarianism necessarily false, and so Catholicism cannot be true as a whole.

Most Catholics are non-Trinitarian, though, and instead understand the Trinity in some heretical way, so I don't think this is that big of a blow to the religion for its followers.
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
If by "Catholicism" you mean "the whole of the doctrines set forward by the Catholic Church," then Catholicism is metaphysically impossible. The Trinitarian interpretation of the Holy Trinity violates the Law of Identity. This makes Trinitarianism necessarily false, and so Catholicism cannot be true as a whole.

Most Catholics are non-Trinitarian, though, and instead understand the Trinity in some heretical way, so I don't think this is that big of a blow to the religion for its followers.
Thanks for sharing.
Would this be the Law of Identity you refer to?;
Law of identity - Wikipedia
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Perhaps it may be helpful to get this thread going to list what the basic teachings of Catholicism are;

'The core beliefs of the Catholic faith are found in the Nicene Creed. Here’s what it says:

  • I believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible.
  • I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten Son of God, born of the Father before all ages. God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father; through him all things were made. For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven, and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary, and became man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate, he suffered death and was buried, and rose again on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead and his kingdom will have no end.
  • I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified who has spoken through the prophets.
  • I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church. I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come.'
Source: What do Catholics believe?
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
What does this section even mean?
'I believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible.'

Does it mean that God set the universe in motion deistically or that God fashioned everything?

If God fashioned everything why do we (in my opinion) appear to have perfectly viable natural explanations for how most things came to be?

On the other hand I believe if it was just a deistic kick off then the earth wouldn't have been made by God at all, and it would have been far simpler to say 'God set the universe in motion and the earth resulted' if you were trying to get people to understand what you are actually saying?

In my opinion.
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Catholicism is no more true and no more false than any religion. Religions are helpful to some but not all. They all contain human doctrines which often cover fundamental truth with rituals and ceremonies.
If religions are not helpful to all then can they be expected to unite people on the global level?
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
1. Is Catholicism true and

2. Once enough people find a thing to be not true, can it unite humans sufficiently to bring about global unity?

It's been a while since I looked into Catholicism, and I seem to recall (though my memory is not a particularly good one) coming to the personal conclusion (in my opinion) that most of its central claims fall into the category of highly improbable to be true.

I also believe that if enough people discover a religion to be untrue it loses its power to unite those people and that reaching global unity will become improbable without some means of eliminating the dissenters.

Inspired by the thread;
Will empire return?.

In my opinion.

There is the Old Testament and the New Testament. There is also the promise of the Spirit. The Spirit of Truth would be left behind after Jesus died. The Catholic Church is connected to the promise of the Holy Spirit. This is why the story of the Catholic Church is not a clone of the past. It was a work in progress connected to a creative spirit of truth writing the future. The Third Testament to the Holy Spirit will finish the trinity; three books. Each book is a way to serve God; Old, New and Future.

The New Testament tells us about the life and death of Jesus, as well as 40 days after that. It does not tell us much of the future beyond that. This is anticipated in Revelations. The future would be led by the Holy Spirit, which still needed to be lived and written.

After Jesus leaves for Heaven for good, early Christianity, was in a very precarious place being a victim of a religious genocide. It did not look good and that may have been the end of the story. But many pockets of faithful endured and in the 4th century AD, Christianity became the official religion of a world super power; Rome. This merger is key part of the third testament.

Revelations of the New Testament predicted a 1000 year reign of peace, which historically; 20/20 hindsight, appears to align with the period from the 4th century merger to the 14th century, when the Church started to split; Atheism, Alchemy and the Protestant movements. Up to that point, the Super Power status of the secular Holy Roman Empire, offered security for the faithful. Luckily, the Church preserves these 1000 years of memories in its archives.

Prophesy says that Satan will be released after the 1000 year reign of peace is over. A spirit of division would appear to change the Church, dividing it like a fertilized ovum to form many Christian churches. This division also broke the original merger of Roman secularism with early Christianity, sort of separating these two extremes back to its original parts; cleaner Christianity and godless secular atheism; Spanish Inquisition and Hitler. Hitler tried to restore 1st century Rome.

The period after the 1000 years to now was very interesting time in history and was part of the promise of the Spirit as it took on the spirit of Satan. This still needs to be complied. The Catholic Catechism is an updated look at Christianity but this does not have wide enough appeal to be the final Third Book. The spirit of division keeps all the parts from combining.
 
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metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
1. Is Catholicism true and

2. Once enough people find a thing to be not true, can it unite humans sufficiently to bring about global unity?

It's been a while since I looked into Catholicism, and I seem to recall (though my memory is not a particularly good one) coming to the personal conclusion (in my opinion) that most of its central claims fall into the category of highly improbable to be true.

I also believe that if enough people discover a religion to be untrue it loses its power to unite those people and that reaching global unity will become improbable without some means of eliminating the dissenters.

Inspired by the thread;
Will empire return?.

In my opinion.
Some parts probably are "true", and some parts probably are "false", but determining which teaching is which is a bugger.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Brazilians are about 50%-60% Catholic Roman. The percentage used to be higher still. To this day we are presumed to be Catholics until we signal otherwise. It is far more usual for Catholics to have been raised into the creed than to actively choose to adhere. In absolute numbers, we are the largest Catholic contingent worldwide, although Mexico comes close and may well surpass us in the near future.

The average Brazilian has very little awareness of other religions and creeds, being generally aware of Kardecist Spiritism, a spectrum of Protestant beliefs including very influential neo-charismatic churches (usually called "Evangelicals"), assorted other Christian groups, the African origin religions Umbanda and Candomblé and perhaps Seicho-no-Ie and Christian Orthodox churches, the last two perceived as largely ethnic beliefs.

Most Brazilians have a measure of a syncretic attitude towards religion. It is frowned upon to be openly atheistic here, and neo-charismatics can be intolerant, but other than that people rarely want to question anyone else's beliefs. Catholicism is widely perceived as an unremarkable "default" belief, while Spiritism is often perceived (despite being very animistic and reincarnationist in nature) as an extension or bridge from Catholicism into something wider - sometimes a bolder form of Catholicism, sometimes a creed that dares to ask and answer questions. Meanwhile, Umbanda and Candomblé have to deal with a lot of largely undeserved prejudice and mistrust.

In practice Catholicism's role in Brazilian society is mainly not to be perceived as true in a doctrinary sense, but rather as a respectable and useful institution, to the point of not being questioned too directly nor too often. Which is one reason why it has been losing adherents to other creeds (mostly Neo-Charismatics) at a significant rate. Neo-Charismatics tend to make very specific promises for significant personal change right here in this world. Catholics, not so much.

Catholicism in Brazil also suffers from a very significant self-inflicted internal tension. On the one hand it has a clear doctrine that requires very specific and fairly unusual beliefs; on the other, it is rather more interested in being accepted and heard than in asking whether we truly believe. I am not the exception among Brazilian atheists for having been through Eucharist despite never having been a believer.

In practice, Catholicism as it exists in Brazil is a wide alliance of people with various degrees of interest in the actual doctrine and the political and social visibility and influence of the church. At present it does not have too much of a clear political stance and is in fact fractured to a significant degree. Parts of it flirt continuously with Fascism, others are interested in social justice.

It has largely lost its arrogance, which is one reason why the Neo-Charismatics are currently far more influential in politics. Another is that there isn't much of a consensual political goal among Catholics.

But for decades now, Catholicism in Brazil cares a lot more about reverence than about belief. Which is arguably a good thing.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
The average Brazilian has very little awareness of other religions and creeds, being generally aware of Kardecist Spiritism
I had a foreign exchange student from Brazil that was into that.

Catholicism is widely perceived as an unremarkable "default" belief,
I can see that.

In practice, Catholicism as it exists in Brazil is a wide alliance of people with various degrees of interest in the actual doctrine and the political and social visibility and influence of the church.
Since the Church allows for personal discernment, this is an obvious byproduct of that.

It has largely lost its arrogance, which is one reason why the Neo-Charismatics are currently far more influential in politics. Another is that there isn't much of a consensual political goal among Catholics.
Yep-- "big tent".

But for decades now, Catholicism in Brazil cares a lot more about reverence than about belief. Which is arguably a good thing.
I agree with you, and thanks so much for posting this.
 

Brickjectivity

Brickish Brat
Staff member
Premium Member
2. Once enough people find a thing to be not true, can it unite humans sufficiently to bring about global unity?
Uniting around a falsehood cannot work, because the sensation disappears after a time. It is analogous to two countries that were once allies in the past. They can still become angry with one another and go to war. Time passes, and they forget the old unifying friendship.

I suggest that the prescription (for peace) is somewhat different. A prophet or a martyr or a group of martyrs must be noticed, misunderstood and then found to have a superior way of living or a pacifist intent or a feature that is desireable. This is how innovations of all kinds move forward. Think of technological innovations as an example. First you hear about some new gimmick, then you assume it is junk like so many other gimmicks, then you find out that its actually a very good thing, then you adopt it. This is also how conversion works.

Let us take for example Russia's disbelief about USA's disinterest. That country does not believe USA has neutral intentions and keeps presuming that we are scheming to control them. That is why they have attempted to invade Ukraine and prevent us from influencing Ukraine. If we do have neutral intentions and show our intentions to be neutral then in the long run Russia may convert (not literally). What I mean is it may cast of presumptions about our intentions. How do we do this? We cannot prove it with talk. We cannot prove it with withdrawal, either. So our actions must demonstrate that we have no interest in invading or controlling Russia. This results in innovation when disbelief turns into belief. Then USA and Russia become better friends than ever. We put the past behind us and banish all who clamber about wars.

1. Is Catholicism true and
The principle of conversion is true. You can convert to be catholic, and you can have a catholicism that encourages peace. Catholicism is incomplete in my opinion or perhaps too wordy and too fickle. I think too much of it is considered to be settled fact, and I think that what is catholic is not necessarily all of the things that people say is catholic. Nevertheless the principles can be applied.
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
Most Catholics are non-Trinitarian, though, and instead understand the Trinity in some heretical way, so I don't think this is that big of a blow to the religion for its followers.

As far as I know the Trinity remains the central doctrine of the Catholic Church, not just as 'a' doctrine, but the central doctrine from which all other doctrines are formed.
 

Alien826

No religious beliefs
I see the driving factors to be culture (at the group level) and self interest (at the individual level). Religion kind of floats on top of those things. If we could somehow disprove all religion and it went away (right!), those two things would remain.

Yes, I'm a pessimist about the human race ever sorting itself out. It's possible that "peace" could be imposed externally. I have hopes for an alien invasion, but I'm having trouble convincing my fellow aliens. They look at the history of Afghanistan and say "eff that*". Can't blame them really.

*Actually it's a kind of tentacular twist and jerk that is difficult to translate exactly. Think of the words "eff that" combined with an extended farting noise.
 

Brickjectivity

Brickish Brat
Staff member
Premium Member
As far as I know the Trinity remains the central doctrine of the Catholic Church, not just as 'a' doctrine, but the central doctrine from which all other doctrines are formed.
Its very mysterious. I can see how it might function as an axiom but not as a center. Most people seem to get it wrong, but maybe that is intentional.
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
Its very mysterious. I can see how it might function as an axiom but not as a center. Most people seem to get it wrong, but maybe that is intentional.

It is the unity of the Trinity that is God's self gift, a model for how to live our lives, unity in families, among others.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Catholicism is no more true and no more false than any religion. Religions are helpful to some but not all. They all contain human doctrines which often cover fundamental truth with rituals and ceremonies.
I think Jesus would say, " ouch ! " to the ^ above ^.
Sure there are many teachings about Jesus, but that does Not make the teachings of Jesus as false.
Jesus even forewarns us so that we can be forearmed in Matthew chapter 7.
MANY would come in Jesus' name but prove false - Matthew 7:21-23
Jesus gave us the illustration about how genuine 'wheat ' Christians and the fake 'weed/tares' Christians would be growing together (side by side, so to speak) over the many centuries until the Harvest Time or our time frame with the soon coming time of separation on Earth near at hand - Matthew 25:31-34,37.
Jesus only set up one annual day in which to remember him (No rituals /ceremonies) just remember his day of death.
That day of death is the annual anniversary as found in the Jewish calendar Spring month of Nisan on the 14th day.
- Luke 22:19
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
It is the unity of the Trinity that is God's self gift, a model for how to live our lives, unity in families, among others.
Unity as in all three being equal or __________
The Father is greater than all - Jesus is part of the 'all ' - John 10:29
God is a Spirit Person and God sends forth His spirit - Psalms 104:30
So, God as a Spirit Person is not the same as God sending forth His spirit.
Also, pre-human heavenly Jesus did Not send himself to Earth, but his God sent heavenly Jesus to Earth for us.
 
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