Is Belief in God Spritual Suicide?

[YmirGF]

The symbol becomes mistaken for reality, and soon he is lost as the egoistic God-figure which is emblematic of all his desires and values becomes unattainable to him, creating a dualistic paradox he cannot resolve intellectually.

That is where you are wrong. The reason why so many believe this cannot be unraveled is because they believe it cannot be unraveled. They create the very obstacle they cannot pass. Human animals CAN resolve their spiritual dilemma however they will need honesty and intellectual integrity to do so.


In regards to the Op, I would not describe this as being "spiritual suicide" though, to be sure, it may well mark the death of previous thinking. Not quite the same thing, imo.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Is it not true that those who believe in god will find only the god they believe in? And is it not also the case that any god the petty mind can conceive of is a petty god? Last, if all of that is so, then is not belief in god a form of spiritual suicide since it would condemn us to -- at the very best -- find nothing beyond our own petty, projected idea of god?

Nothing is being killed, if there isn't anything else to find.

 

[Random]

That is where you are wrong. The reason why so many believe this cannot be unraveled is because they believe it cannot be unraveled. They create the very obstacle they cannot pass. Human animals CAN resolve their spiritual dilemma however they will need honesty and intellectual integrity to do so.

No I did not say it could not be unraveled at all, only that it cannot be resolved by means of belief or the intellect, since a problem cannot be solved as/from the same level of consciousness that created it.

However, the "dilemma" as you call it can be resolved by simpler means - the Heart, and direct experience of God. What is meant by that is up to each individual as it is entirely a subjective matter. Honesty is key in either case.

 

[ChristineES]

Is it not true that those who believe in god will find only the god they believe in? And is it not also the case that any god the petty mind can conceive of is a petty god? Last, if all of that is so, then is not belief in god a form of spiritual suicide since it would condemn us to -- at the very best -- find nothing beyond our own petty, projected idea of god?

It doesn't have to be. For some, yes, it certainly would be; particularly those who stop their spiritual quest after finding or settling on a faith. But a lot of us "faithful folks" continue to seek for truth in the spiritual sense. Searching is something that should be life long and not ever stop.

 

[Onkara]

What 'more' do you suggest we invest in our search for truth?
Which method should we, according to you, employ?

Perhaps you may have seen my other posts in this thread as I would like to emphasise that I do not consider it be a question of ignoring science over religion, but not to make a "spiritual sacrifice" in the name of science.

I suggest finding some premises which will allow you to feel comfortable to explore further in confirming them for yourself. As I hoped to explain, there is nothing for a person who wants nothing, one needs to want to find an answer to fuel their search. It should require logic and offer logical explanations ideally, if you prefer that way to "truth".

Actually this is the point of Sunstones' OP as it may appear that people only find what they want to find. Personally I found it was much more than I had expected.

 

[jarofthoughts]

Perhaps you may have seen my other posts in this thread as I would like to emphasise that I do not consider it be a question of ignoring science over religion, but not to make a "spiritual sacrifice" in the name of science.

I suggest finding some premises which will allow you to feel comfortable to explore further in confirming them for yourself. As I hoped to explain, there is nothing for a person who wants nothing, one needs to want to find an answer to fuel their search. It should require logic and offer logical explanations ideally, if you prefer that way to "truth".

Actually this is the point of Sunstones' OP as it may appear that people only find what they want to find. Personally I found it was much more than I had expected.

I'm not even sure what "spiritual sacrifice" would mean in this context, so if you could elaborate somewhat on that subject I would be grateful.
As for finding the 'truth', whatever we put into that basket, I have yet to find any reason to think that there is anything outside observed reality (Or what can at least in theory be observed. I'm not so ignorant that I'd claim we know everything). I've seen no evidence for a soul, a spirit or anything supernatural at all, which has led me to think that there is no reason to find an answer to a question that apparently does not exist.

 

[Penumbra]

Is it not true that those who believe in god will find only the god they believe in? And is it not also the case that any god the petty mind can conceive of is a petty god? Last, if all of that is so, then is not belief in god a form of spiritual suicide since it would condemn us to -- at the very best -- find nothing beyond our own petty, projected idea of god?

In that case, a theist is stuck between a rock and a hard place.

If they claim to know attributes and facts about god, then this argument renders their god rather petty. On the other hand, if they can't describe anything about their god, then why do they believe it exists at all? They might as well just be an atheist.

That is where you are wrong. The reason why so many believe this cannot be unraveled is because they believe it cannot be unraveled. They create the very obstacle they cannot pass. Human animals CAN resolve their spiritual dilemma however they will need honesty and intellectual integrity to do so.

In regards to the Op, I would not describe this as being "spiritual suicide" though, to be sure, it may well mark the death of previous thinking. Not quite the same thing, imo.

Do you assert that you have unraveled the spiritual dilemma?

 

[LuisDantas]

I'm not even sure what "spiritual sacrifice" would mean in this context, so if you could elaborate somewhat on that subject I would be grateful.

To borrow from a famous cartoon character: make that double!

 

[Sunstone]

To borrow from a famous cartoon character: make that double!

Spirituality, in my way of looking at it, refers to how a person handles both the human tendency to perceive a division between subject and object, and the consequences of that perception. Spiritual suicide is just a poetic way of describing someone who is quite clumsy and unskillful in dealing with that perception and its consequences.

 

[LuisDantas]

Oh, that I can understand well enough, Sunstone. It is Onkara's "spiritual sacrifice in the name of science" that I have a hard time imagining.

 

[Sunstone]

Oh, that I can understand well enough, Sunstone. It is Onkara's "spiritual sacrifice in the name of science" that I have a hard time imagining.

I don't understand what he means by that either.

 

[Onkara]

I don't understand what he means by that either.

I'm not even sure what "spiritual sacrifice" would mean in this context, so if you could elaborate somewhat on that subject I would be grateful.
As for finding the 'truth', whatever we put into that basket, I have yet to find any reason to think that there is anything outside observed reality (Or what can at least in theory be observed. I'm not so ignorant that I'd claim we know everything). I've seen no evidence for a soul, a spirit or anything supernatural at all, which has led me to think that there is no reason to find an answer to a question that apparently does not exist.

Hello
Sorry for the confusion, it may have come from my use of "sacrifice/suicide".

My interpretation of "a form of spiritual suicide" is someone who puts aside, gives up, commits suicide or sacrifices their spiritual interests or pursuits for something else. In the context of the OP the question is; "is not belief in god a form of spiritual suicide since it would condemn us to -- at the very best -- find nothing beyond our own petty, projected idea of god?"

My answer is that "spiritual sacrifice" is not just belief in god leading to our own petty, projected idea of god, but belief is anything which we feel fills that gap, be it science, materialism, politics or even work.

It is my observation that most people default to science over god as an explanation for what they cannot explain and this is no better than finding nothing beyond our own petty projected ideas.

It is not that using science is wrong, nor god concepts, but the ego, which we are up against and for that to come under analysis we must go as far as to question belief in any idea, not just those in god (or even science).

Like you I have no "evidence" for soul, supernatural events (nor do I seek it). I hoped to communicate was that ego is founded on all ideas and that leads to spiritual suicide/sacrifice.

 

[LuisDantas]

It is my observation that most people default to science over god as an explanation for what they cannot explain and this is no better than finding nothing beyond our own petty projected ideas.

Are you sure that it isn't? By this wording it sounds quite proper instead. The whole point of science is to be the best possible default explanation.

Maybe we are using divergent definitions of science?

It is not that using science is wrong, nor god concepts, but the ego, which we are up against and for that to come under analysis we must go as far as to question belief in any idea, not just those in god (or even science).

Actually, part of the concept of science is that its findings must be questioned if at all possible.

Like you I have no "evidence" for soul, supernatural events (nor do I seek it). I hoped to communicate was that ego is founded on all ideas and that leads to spiritual suicide/sacrifice.

I'm afraid I still don't get it.

 

[Onkara]

Are you sure that it isn't? By this wording it sounds quite proper instead. The whole point of science is to be the best possible default explanation.

Maybe we are using divergent definitions of science?

Actually, part of the concept of science is that its findings must be questioned if at all possible.

I'm afraid I still don't get it.

Hello Luis
I will try to explain.

I am fairly satisfied with the definition of science at the top of the wikipage:Science - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Science is a human field of study. I include Psychology and any other field of study as a science if it uses statistics or mathematical data to form a foundation for a conclusion based on an hypothesis.

I agree that the results should always be questioned and nothing in science is 100% "provable" or 100% "evidencel" of a fact. There is always room for it to change or be negated (e.g. see Hawkins quote above).

It is for these reason that I say that science depends on our ideas. If we didn't have the ideas then it would not exist in a way in which it could be communicated. Likewise our ideas make things exist because we can then communicate them as if they were objects. Not only the concept or belief in god (as per OP) but also science, politics, literature or any other human endeavour takes the form of an idea.

Now the mind takes ideas and objectifies them and later the ego claims them for itself, like possessing any object or idea. The mind makes "god" into an object through the communication of ideas (language). For example, I say "God is kind". Now I have created an object idea, "god", which has the property of "kindness". Both of which only exist in our minds.

This is Sunstones OP, is belief in god just petty ideas in our ego (mind)?

So yes, it is a "petty idea" but it is only up to a point. The point is that it is only an idea when we recognise that it is the mind/ego which is creating the objects. Before we recognise that it is our mind which creates these objects and gives them independent existence then people will not deny their existence as real for them. They will continue to believe and this blind belief I can call "spiritual suicide", because we are investing our selves (our spirit) in the belief of an idea.

This is why we go around and around in circles, with comments from theist saying "God exists" and atheists saying "give me the evidence then". Because both theist and atheist are dealing with their minds.

There is an option which lies beyond the mind, and that when we recognise that our own mind is creating these objects. I am suggesting that we cannot arrive at that point until we accept that science (or anything which replaces the god concept) is seen as an objectified idea.

That which lies beyond the mind is not an idea in itself, it can be spoken about as if it were an idea. I call that idea "consciousness" but in reality it cannot be limited to an idea because it only takes someone to deny it and it is gone. In other words ideas only exist if we accept them (agree to think them).

If we recognise that we are that which is beyond the mind. That which knows the mind and its ideas, we can move beyond the "petty idea" of god etc. Until we reach that point we are bound to go around and around in circles trying to prove ideas to each other.

Is that a little more clear?

 

[jarofthoughts]

My answer is that "spiritual sacrifice" is not just belief in god leading to our own petty, projected idea of god, but belief is anything which we feel fills that gap, be it science, materialism, politics or even work.

It is my observation that most people default to science over god as an explanation for what they cannot explain and this is no better than finding nothing beyond our own petty projected ideas.

As mentioned before, science has an excellent track record for figuring out how reality works, which is probably why it is the default explanation, as well it should be. The fact of the matter is that science works.

What would you suggest we do instead/in addition to that?

Like you I have no "evidence" for soul, supernatural events (nor do I seek it). I hoped to communicate was that ego is founded on all ideas and that leads to spiritual suicide/sacrifice.

I'm afraid I'm with Luis on this one. I still don't understand the point you are trying to make. :sorry1:

 

[jarofthoughts]

Hello Luis
I will try to explain.

I am fairly satisfied with the definition of science at the top of the wikipage:Science - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Science is a human field of study. I include Psychology and any other field of study as a science if it uses statistics or mathematical data to form a foundation for a conclusion based on an hypothesis.

I agree that the results should always be questioned and nothing in science is 100% "provable" or 100% "evidencel" of a fact. There is always room for it to change or be negated (e.g. see Hawkins quote above).

It is for these reason that I say that science depends on our ideas. If we didn't have the ideas then it would not exist in a way in which it could be communicated. Likewise our ideas make things exist because we can then communicate them as if they were objects. Not only the concept or belief in god (as per OP) but also science, politics, literature or any other human endeavour takes the form of an idea.

Now the mind takes ideas and objectifies them and later the ego claims them for itself, like possessing any object or idea. The mind makes "god" into an object through the communication of ideas (language). For example, I say "God is kind". Now I have created an object idea, "god", which has the property of "kindness". Both of which only exist in our minds.

This is Sunstones OP, is belief in god just petty ideas in our ego (mind)?

So yes, it is a "petty idea" but it is only up to a point. The point is that it is only an idea when we recognise that it is the mind/ego which is creating the objects. Before we recognise that it is our mind which creates these objects and gives them independent existence then people will not deny their existence as real for them. They will continue to believe and this blind belief I can call "spiritual suicide", because we are investing our selves (our spirit) in the belief of an idea.

This is why we go around and around in circles, with comments from theist saying "God exists" and atheists saying "give me the evidence then". Because both theist and atheist are dealing with their minds.

There is an option which lies beyond the mind, and that when we recognise that our own mind is creating these objects. I am suggesting that we cannot arrive at that point until we accept that science (or anything which replaces the god concept) is seen as an objectified idea.

That which lies beyond the mind is not an idea in itself, it can be spoken about as if it were an idea. I call that idea "consciousness" but in reality it cannot be limited to an idea because it only takes someone to deny it and it is gone. In other words ideas only exist if we accept them (agree to think them).

If we recognise that we are that which is beyond the mind. That which knows the mind and its ideas, we can move beyond the "petty idea" of god etc. Until we reach that point we are bound to go around and around in circles trying to prove ideas to each other.

Is that a little more clear?

Sorry if I'm reading you wrong here, but are you arguing for the existence of a soul of some kind?

 

[Onkara]

Sorry if I'm reading you wrong here, but are you arguing for the existence of a soul of some kind?

Does the second post to Luis answer the doubt above?

I am tot really saying that there is a "soul" I have no evidence of a soul as per abrahmic theology, although you can call it that should it help us to understand. I call it Consciousness. But not consciousness in the sense that you are awake, but a state of pure unbroken awareness, which exists even where there is no object or sense data for awareness to know itself.

I am sorry this is so complicated. It is not on my agenda to pursue this. I was actually hoping to highlight that belief in anything is still belief limited to our petty ideas (as per OP). I am not out to show you pure consciousness here, neither do you need to accept my word (if you would) .

 

[Onkara]

As mentioned before, science has an excellent track record for figuring out how reality works, which is probably why it is the default explanation, as well it should be. The fact of the matter is that science works.

What would you suggest we do instead/in addition to that?

I agree, Science is excellent, but it still has limitations due to the way reality changes (see my Hawkins quote above if easier to see my point). We should not only invest in science because we reject God, but we should still consider our own existence.

I am suggesting in addition to science that we look at the way our minds work and to confirm empirically if there is a foundation, like pure consciousness, on which all ideas depend.

 

[Peace]

But I wonder: Why would any of us think the god we seek is anything other than a petty projection of our petty minds?

This cannot be the case for Islam and other Abrahamic religions. We believe in One God and we are sure and aware of His existance. I would say, it would be just ungrateful of my mind to seek and worship other that its Creator, God! My mind believes, worships, trusts and loves its true Creator!!

Is belief in God Spiritual Suicide?

Nope :no:, it is rather a spiritual safety and victory

 

[Onkara]

This cannot be the case for Islam and other Abrahamic religions. We believe in One God and we are sure and aware of His existance. I would say, it would be just ungrateful of my mind to seek and worship other that its Creator, God! My mind believes, worships, trusts and loves its true Creator!!

Nope :no:, it is rather a spiritual safetu and victory

Hello Peace
I would like you to elaborate on being sure of His existence, please. What makes you sure, is it a sense of certainty and how to you feel/know that?