Is anyone else here practicing a religion without beliefs?

[Jim]

... you shouldn't be expecting other people to tell you all about themselves.

I’m not expecting other people to tell me all about themselves.

 

[MNoBody]

well, what do you want to know.?
ask

 

[Jim]

well, what do you want to know.?
ask

Is fhat for me? I’m searching for people who are practicing something that they call “religion,” without any statement of beliefs attached to it. One example that has been discussed in this thread is Zazen.

 

[MNoBody]

Is fhat for me? I’m searching for people who are practicing something that they call “religion,” without any statement of beliefs attached to it. One example that has been discussed here is Zazan.

yes, that was for you Jim....ask....what do you wish to know about that....?

 

[Jim]

yes, that was for you Jim....ask....what do you wish to know about that....?

Sorry, I forgot that it was you! I was just curious to know if there were any people here practicing some kind of religion without any statement of beliefs attached to it. Now I know that there is one, and maybe one other.

(edit) Oops! No, that wasn’t you. Do you practice Zazen too?

 

[MNoBody]

so you are just counting heads then?

 

[Jim]

so you are just counting heads then?

No. Actually, just knowing that there is one answers my question. Plus I learned something new. I don’t remember ever hearing of Zazen before.

 

[MNoBody]

zazen = seated meditation
so, yes, it is useful.
a meditation circle i have been to in this locale has been following south american traditions and utilizes 'hape' [a mostly tobacco and other plants and ashes snuff], which i have also tried , and it is another useful method

 

[MNoBody]

probably a subject for another thread of its own.

 

[izzy88]

I decided a few days ago not to try to discuss anything with anyone who associates me with a belief system.

Respectfully, you need to get over your irrational desire to be without a belief system; it's literally impossible to live without one, and what you've been saying throughout this thread is plain nonsense. You have a system of beliefs just like everyone else, and there are going to be some people who share your beliefs and some people who don't. That's life. It's clear you're trying to place yourself above the majority by being more objective, more of a "free-thinker", but the only difference between you and the rest of us is that we all admit when we've looked to sources outside of ourselves for knowledge and wisdom, while you try to make it appear that you've come up with all of your beliefs by yourself - whatever that's supposed to mean. You don't live in a vacuum, Jim; nothing you think or believe is original. Zazen is as much of a belief system as any other religion, as is your humanitarian religion.

I think we could have had a pretty interesting conversation, but suit yourself, I suppose.

 

[metis]

Zazen is as much of a belief system as any other religion

It is a process, not a religion, that is potentially compatible with any religion. The biblical prophets, for example, would typically go out into the wilderness by themselves to pray and meditate, which is basically what "zazen" is. Monks in the Church use this a great deal as they meditate. Thomas Merton stated in "Seven Story Mountain" that learning meditation in Vietnam from Buddhist monks very much helped his own spirituality.

 

[izzy88]

It is a process, not a religion, that is potentially compatible with any religion. The biblical prophets, for example, would typically go out into the wilderness by themselves to pray and meditate, which is basically what "zazen" is. Monks in the Church use this a great deal as they meditate. Thomas Merton stated in "Seven Story Mountain" that learning meditation in Vietnam from Buddhist monks very much helped his own spirituality.

Yes, but it is a belief system. There is a system of beliefs regarding what it is, how to do it, why to do it, what it is intended to accomplish, etc. There is a belief system attached to it, like there is with anything else.

 

[MNoBody]

Yes, but it is a belief system. There is a system of beliefs regarding what it is, how to do it, why to do it, what it is intended to accomplish, etc. There is a belief system attached to it, like there is with anything else.

sure, that is correct, each school of belief would have their own specific way that they preferred, some would be quite militant about it.
[edit- 'correct' from the point that it lines up with what i have read and know about it, 'i concur' would perhaps have been more appropriate.]

 

[metis]

Yes, but it is a belief system. There is a system of beliefs regarding what it is, how to do it, why to do it, what it is intended to accomplish, etc. There is a belief system attached to it, like there is with anything else.

Actually there is not since there are so many different ways one may meditate and reasons for doing as such. Why would the prophets and today's Catholic monks have done this for centuries if it is a belief system not compatible with Christianity?

 

[metis]

sure, that is correct, each school of belief would have their own specific way that they preferred, some would be quite militant about it.
[edit- 'correct' from the point that it lines up with what i have read and know about it, 'i concur' would perhaps have been more appropriate.]

Yes, but that is so highly variable. For example, I have a book on meditation written by the Dalai Lama that covers different forms of meditation with different possible outcomes. Same is true in Hinduism as well

Again, it's a process to an end, thus not an end in and of itself, and those ends are variable.

 

[MNoBody]

Yes, but that is so highly variable. For example, I have a book on meditation written by the Dalai Lama that covers different forms of meditation with different possible outcomes. Same is true in Hinduism as well

Again, it's a process to an end, thus not an end in and of itself, and those ends are variable.

i agree with that
it does all amount to the same thing in the end regardless of which door someone gets in by.
but people are perplexed
which is perfectly imperfect.

 

[izzy88]

Actually there is not since there are so many different ways one may meditate and reasons for doing as such. Why would the prophets and today's Catholic monks have done this for centuries if it is a belief system not compatible with Christianity?

Where have I said it's not compatible with Christianity?

Zazen is a system of beliefs regarding mediation, and within it there can certainly be several varying schools of thought, each with sightly different beliefs, but it is still a belief system, itself.

I posted the full dictionary entry for "religion" earlier in the thread. Any system of beliefs can legitimately be referred to as a religion; the 6th definition of the term states: "something one believes in and follows devotedly." I'd say Zazen meets that description, wouldn't you?

You're using a very narrow definition of "religion" in order to exclude Zazen, but that doesn't reflect how the term is actually defined. If Jim considers his humanitarianism to be religion, then Zazen certainly is, as well. You can refuse to call it such if you want, but that doesn't change the fact that it can accurately be called religion based on the definition of the word.

 

[metis]

i agree with that
it does all amount to the same thing in the end regardless of which door someone gets in by.
but people are perplexed
which is perfectly imperfect.

I understand and agree.

I use prayerful meditation a great deal, and this involves less words and more "listening", if you know what I mean. The impact on me from that has been phenomenal in terms of giving me senses of direction that has opened so many "doors" for me over the last 40 years.

 

[metis]

Where have I said it's not compatible with Christianity?

Zazen is a system of beliefs regarding mediation, and within it there can certainly be several varying schools of thought, each with sightly different beliefs, but it is still a belief system, itself.

I posted the full dictionary entry for "religion" earlier in the thread. Any system of beliefs can legitimately be referred to as a religion; the 6th definition of the term states: "something one believes in and follows devotedly." I'd say Zazen meets that description, wouldn't you?

You're using a very narrow definition of "religion" in order to exclude Zazen, but that doesn't reflect how the term is actually defined. If Jim considers his humanitarianism to be religion, then Zazen certainly is, as well. You can refuse to call it such if you want, but that doesn't change the fact that it can accurately be called religion based on the definition of the word.

Ya, I have to admit that this is my fault on this as I was largely just focusing in on "meditation" versus just "zazen meditation". Sorry 'bout that.

 

[MNoBody]

I understand and agree.

I use prayerful meditation a great deal, and this involves less words and more "listening", if you know what I mean. The impact on me from that has been phenomenal in terms of giving me senses of direction that has opened so many "doors" for me over the last 40 years.

silence is golden