Imagine by John Lennon

[Shantanu]

Nope. I happen to think that evolution is how 'God did it." I also believe that He probably loves the diversity that showed up as a result as much as we appreciate it; probably more, because HE isn't trying to eliminate species as fast as He can at the moment. We are.

I also believe that the Grand Canyon took millions of years to become what it is today, and that the scablands of eastern Washington took...perhaps...days to be carved out through more than one catastrophic flood.

I believe that God has given us two sets of 'scripture' from which to understand Him and His creations. One is through written scripture, which tells us (through the eyes of the prophets who actually wrote them) how He wants us to deal with one another, and the other is the very creation He made; the universe itself and, more closely, the planet and solar system we live in. If we don't learn as much as we can from both sets of information, we are really missing the whole point of being alive. At least, that's what I think.

The problems only happen when people figure that science can explain religious things, and that scripture has anything at all to do with what science discovers about the physical world. Or to put this another way:

Science is about telling us what and how.
The bible (and other books that claim to be scripture) tell us why.

I'm quite happy, and excited about, both...and new discoveries made by the scientific method do NOT tell us 'why,' but the process? The What and the How? they are very much worth knowing and learning about.

AND I think that God wants us to learn everything we can about everything we can.

Thank you for sharing this.

 

[dianaiad]

Yeah, i am just reading more bitterness.

Few people can claim to be as influential towards peace and joy than the beatles. I am not saying that no others have such claims. I am just suggesting that it is not common.

Disagree with the premise all you want. But there is little rarionale for your emotive display here.

I cannot imagine why you carry such animosity towards such a peaceful song and peaceful message.

Because it is ridiculous, and it is not a peaceful song.

....and I was fourteen when the Beatles came to the USA. I should have been one of those girls squeeling and fainting at their very name. I disliked them and their music.

But then, I was taking singing lessons and singing with the predecessor of the LA Opera company (when they would let pretty much anybody sing in the chorus). I was a bit of a music snob...I have grown to appreciate the Beatles more in my old age, but I STILL think that "Imagine" is the dumbest song ever written.

though "baby shark" can give it a run for its money.

 

[Curious George]

Because it is ridiculous, and it is not a peaceful song.

....and I was fourteen when the Beatles came to the USA. I should have been one of those girls squeeling and fainting at their very name. I disliked them and their music.

But then, I was taking singing lessons and singing with the predecessor of the LA Opera company (when they would let pretty much anybody sing in the chorus). I was a bit of a music snob...I have grown to appreciate the Beatles more in my old age, but I STILL think that "Imagine" is the dumbest song ever written.

though "baby shark" can give it a run for its money.

Perhaps in your even older age you will grow to appreciate the contribution of others and bitterness will subside.

 

[dianaiad]

Perhaps in your even older age you will grow to appreciate the contribution of others and bitterness will subside.

Oh, I'm not bitter.

Just annoyed. At my age I'm allowed to be a curmudgeon, and given how long I have dealt with atheists who use this song as their hymn of choice, I have a right to be curmudgeonly about it. I mean, really?

Who really advocates getting rid of all possessions, eliminating all countries and all religion? That's not idealistic...that's...sitting naked in a commune and hoping it doesn't snow on you and waiting for someone ELSE to bring the groceries.

...and it was written by a druggie millionaire who had too big a notion of his own importance, and who would have screamed bloody murder if anybody had said to him about getting rid of possessions..."you first."

Or rather, he did perform many charity concerts, AFTER he made enough money to support his heroin habit and his lifestyle. I do have to say that he figured, at some point, that he 'had enough,' and then proceeded to do many charity concerts.

but he didn't invade his 'principal' and he kept up his lifestyle. His concerts, while laudable, were 'extra,' Sort of a retirement hobby.

Many say he 'walked the walk,' but if he had done that, the 'no possessions' thing....Yoko Ono wouldn't have been a rich widow.

 

[Curious George]

Oh, I'm not bitter.

Just annoyed. At my age I'm allowed to be a curmudgeon, and given how long I have dealt with atheists who use this song as their hymn of choice, I have a right to be curmudgeonly about it. I mean, really?

Who really advocates getting rid of all possessions, eliminating all countries and all religion? That's not idealistic...that's...sitting naked in a commune and hoping it doesn't snow on you and waiting for someone ELSE to bring the groceries.

...and it was written by a druggie millionaire who had too big a notion of his own importance, and who would have screamed bloody murder if anybody had said to him about getting rid of possessions..."you first."

Or rather, he did perform many charity concerts, AFTER he made enough money to support his heroin habit and his lifestyle. I do have to say that he figured, at some point, that he 'had enough,' and then proceeded to do many charity concerts.

but he didn't invade his 'principal' and he kept up his lifestyle. His concerts, while laudable, were 'extra,' Sort of a retirement hobby.

Many say he 'walked the walk,' but if he had done that, the 'no possessions' thing....Yoko Ono wouldn't have been a rich widow.

But your not bitter.

 

[dianaiad]

But your not bitter.

nope. I just dislike hypocrisy and stupidity.

And I have to wonder at the thinking processes of anybody who honestly believes that achieving the ideals of "Imagine" would be a GOOD thing.

unless, of course, the human race were reduced to a single tribe living in the Amazon valley. Then it would work.

 

[Curious George]

nope. I just dislike hypocrisy and stupidity.

I am not buying it.

 

[dianaiad]

I am not buying it.

that's OK. You bought "Imagine" as a description of ideals that would actually be good things. Given that, your 'not buying it' doesn't make me cringe.

By the way, I don't lie. I'm quite aware of the difference between 'bitter' and 'annoyed,' even when I express annoyance with rather strong language.

When it first came out, "Imagine" didn't bother me. I figured it was just another Beatles song. Big whoop.

It wasn't until people started treating it like a hymn or anthem that the annoyance factor rose.

I mean, I have a basic inability to believe that anybody with two synapses to rub together would consider that the 'ideals' sung about in that song were actually possible...or desirable.

But then, I happen to believe that a perfect world MIGHT just contain one global country in which everybody is free to move, and to be....but that there would be 'no countries?" Chaos. We are people. It would be violence everywhere and uncontrollable.

No religion? Mentioned twice? What on earth do you think would replace religion? We are people. If there is no God, then people made religion up in order to justify their actions. Without religion, people would just find something else to justify it. ....and without the idea that there MIGHT be punishment or judgement for bad behavior in the 'afterlife.' We have seen from fairly recent history that people who believe that they have no God to account to become incredibly violent/genocidal, if they happen to be leaders who have the power to force religion out of their political influence.

THAT'S what happens when people can enforce the 'no religion' thing.

No possessions? We are humans. We are people. That's not going to happen...and if by some miracle of mind control it DID, humanity would disappear. As another poster mentioned...sounds like a plan for mass starvation. All 'possessions' would be concentrated in the hands of a few, and we would be living like the pre-plague Europeans. Not fun.

We are people. We are humans. We need to concentrate...not on stupid ideals that don't work, but on those that do; helping others, teaching others, becoming better people who are 'other centered,' and willing to aid those who need it, and willing to accept aid when WE need it.

Something a tad bit more practical than imagining something that silly.

 

[Curious George]

that's OK. You bought "Imagine" as a description of ideals that would actually be good things.

Whoa now. I didn't say that. I said that it is trying to convey a peaceful message.

There is a difference.

You have a bone to pick with a song that has literally inspired millions. Not simply that Imagine is not your cup of tea, but that it is the "dumbest song" ever made. If that doesn't spell out bitter...

 

[Twilight Hue]

When seeing Paul McCartney recently he gave a tribute to his friend John Lennon which reminded me of his song Imagine. Given the turmoil and anger between countries and religions, his lyrics to his song seem to have so much meaning in our current time.

"Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today... Aha-ah...

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion, too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace... You...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world... You...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one" by John Lennon.
Maybe it is just an idealized dream but its message to me carries the meaning that if we stop seeing us as so different from each other and instead see ourselves as the same above religion, above nationality or race, that we could finally work better in cooperation to solve the disasters that lie ahead. I personally would extend this to the rest of the life on earth too. So as the new year begins maybe we should reflect the wisdom in his words. I wonder if anyone else agrees?

The song is great , but the man himself had needed a little work.

 

[Ancient Soul]

Nah....

Nice hair style you got there.

 

[Ancient Soul]

Yes. I have long since been inspired by Lennon’s Imagine lyrics.
But I’m saddened to see how little humanity has learned in 50 years.
Perhaps the three evils he described are a little weaker now than they were then.......we shall see.

I think you're way too kind.

Having lived "back then", I'm convinced that in the U.S. people have "de-evolved". So many narcissistic, hateful, violent, uncaring, cruel, rude, etc, etc, etc... people now. And it seems to be getting worse.

 

[BSM1]

Nice hair style you got there.

Why, thank you. It's the latest thing in Paris.

 

[Ancient Soul]

When seeing Paul McCartney recently he gave a tribute to his friend John Lennon which reminded me of his song Imagine. Given the turmoil and anger between countries and religions, his lyrics to his song seem to have so much meaning in our current time.

"Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today... Aha-ah...

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion, too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace... You...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world... You...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one" by John Lennon.
Maybe it is just an idealized dream but its message to me carries the meaning that if we stop seeing us as so different from each other and instead see ourselves as the same above religion, above nationality or race, that we could finally work better in cooperation to solve the disasters that lie ahead. I personally would extend this to the rest of the life on earth too. So as the new year begins maybe we should reflect the wisdom in his words. I wonder if anyone else agrees?

I've been thinking upon this issue a lot lately, with so much hate, bigotry, racism, and division in America.

I just never did "get it". It makes no sense to me to hate anyone unless maybe they did something to harm you. Then I just let it go afterwards. But to hate a whole group of people for whatever stupid reason, just seems like a senseless waste of time and only does more harm to the hater holding all those negative emotions all the time. Spending one's days venting at protests, vandalizing others property, beating people over their appearance, spewing hateful rants on the Internet, all for what exactly? What a wretched way to live one's life, consuming oneself with such hatred.

I would rather do what I have done my entire life. To spend my days simply enjoying life. To wake up in the morning and have nothing more on my mind but planing out my day. Always spending as much time as I could every day out hiking with my dog and soaking in all of the beauty of the forests, the cloud formations in the sky, sunsets, etc, etc, etc... And just seek the peace and quiet to savor all the beauty of the world around me. And when around people I just see them as other people, all trying to find their way thru this life just like I am, no better, no greater. I could care less about their form or skin color, it makes no difference. Why should it? It never enters my mind to start any kind of strife with anyone, hate hurts my soul, I therefore hate to hate. So I just never will understand why people do so love to hate others for whatever stupid reason they make up to hate them.

 

[Ancient Soul]

Why, thank you. It's the latest thing in Paris.

LOL

Sorry. but I just had to comment on your Avatar. I'm a wee bit on the err... "mature" side so grew up watching The Little Rascals I think it was called. God, that seems a lifetime ago. So I was taken back in time upon seeing that photo.

 

[Father Heathen]

....and without the idea that there MIGHT be punishment or judgement for bad behavior in the 'afterlife.' We have seen from fairly recent history that people who believe that they have no God to account to become incredibly violent/genocidal, if they happen to be leaders who have the power to force religion out of their political influence.

“If people are good only because they fear punishment and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed.” - Albert Einstein

If you have to be spooked into being a moral person, are you really a moral person?

 

[Shantanu]

“If people are good only because they fear punishment and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed.” - Albert Einstein

If you have to be spooked into being a moral person, are you really a moral person?

If you wish to survive in this world, you need to obey the laws of the country that you live in.

 

[dianaiad]

Whoa now. I didn't say that. I said that it is trying to convey a peaceful message.

There is a difference.

You have a bone to pick with a song that has literally inspired millions. Not simply that Imagine is not your cup of tea, but that it is the "dumbest song" ever made. If that doesn't spell out bitter...

no. It 'spells out' a musician who thinks the lyrics to that song are really stupid (I rather like the 'tune')

It spells out the frustration I feel whenever I have to debate some idiotic atheist who honestly feels inspired by that song, and thinks that somehow legislating, or militarizing, religion out of existence would solve the ills of the universe.

It spells out someone who knows better than to think that human nature would be improved somehow if someone could force their ideals (no religion...no possessions...I hesitate to say 'communism,' because that isn't about 'no possessions,' it's about who owns them and who gets to pay for them even if they don't own them) and 'no countries."

It spells out the frustration with the sheer hypocrisy of the writer of that song that has 'inspired millions.'

What it HAS done, thanks to Yoko Ono who has assigned all the income from the song to ...I forget who...is to inspire the folks who HAVE that income (Amnesty International? again, I forget) to see to it that it gets played. A lot. To increase the income from a song that advocates 'no possessions,' which of course involves 'no money.'

I reserve 'bitterness' to something more important than a debate topic.

 

[dianaiad]

“If people are good only because they fear punishment and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed.” - Albert Einstein

If you have to be spooked into being a moral person, are you really a moral person?

Doesn't matter if one is 'moral' individually or not, does it...if it works? Me, if the difference between a leader who respects the rights of his people to practice their religion or one who sends police out to arrest those who actually go to church is simply that he is 'spooked into being a moral person," I'll take the spooked one.

It's ALWAYS good for the leader to feel that he is accountable to someone...or Someone...even if that Someone isn't believed in by some others. it's only when that leader does NOT feel accountable that atrocities like...oh...the starvation of the Ukrainians, the mass murders of Mao and Pol Pot, etc., occur.

Yes, theocracies have also been murderous...but not quite to that extent, so efficiently and so...in the millions all at once...and THEY have to take the time to figure out a way to get God on their side first. It's not a huge stumbling block for them, certainly...but it is one and when one must be held accountable by God, one is ALSO held accountable to the priests and believers in that God. Turning all those people to one's purpose takes some politicking and time. One then doesn't have quite as much power and time to do that sort of mass murder, and when one does, one is always in danger of being accused of heresy and deposed. Believers who disagree with their political leadership tend to get irritated.

All we have to do to confirm this is look to the twentieth century and see exactly who it is did the most killing. And no, I am NOT including Hitler in the group to look at.

 

[Shantanu]

Doesn't matter if one is 'moral' individually or not, does it...if it works? Me, if the difference between a leader who respects the rights of his people to practice their religion or one who sends police out to arrest those who actually go to church is simply that he is 'spooked into being a moral person," I'll take the spooked one.

If the State sends out the Police or mental health authorities because you have morals that diverge from the State's laws, then you have been on the wrong path entirely, for the rule is one must survive.