Imagine by John Lennon

[BSM1]

No...actually I'm just tired of those anti-theists who keep quoting "Imagine" as if it were Holy Writ in their constant quest to rid the world of religion, as if their 'imagination' and the elimination of something that if they are RIGHT is a man-made construct. If they are RIGHT, getting rid of religion would not only NOT solve the problems they think it would, history has shown us that forcing the elimination of religion is an extremely nasty and violent thing to do. Democidal. Genocidal.

And people would still go on doing what those anti-theist types are blaming religion for.

"Imagine" seems to be their anthem.

.....and frankly, I don't see that it has motivated anything but people sitting around a campfire alternating 'Imagine' with "Kumbaya." (which is a combination that has always made me go wait...what?) I haven't seen that it has motivated any actual DEEDS of kindness. "Non-violence' is simply NOT doing something, and 'joy' is purely personal. Wonderful, but it doesn't affect anybody ELSE.

Our job in this world, I believe, is not to HAVE joy (though we do get that) but to GIVE joy. Not to simply 'be non-violent," but to protect others against violence. Not to imagine, but to DO. Not to sit around and sing idealistic (with incredibly stupid ideals) but to work to make others well, and happy, and able to have their own joys and peace.

THAT'S what we should be doing. And that's the only thing that will, perhaps, bring peace to the world.

That song? There's nothing about it's ideals that would even begin to accomplish that.

To John's credit he did use "religion" as opposed to "belief"...

 

[Shantanu]

To John's credit he did use "religion" as opposed to "belief"...

He did not say anything about God.

 

[Revoltingest]

Personally, I think it is perhaps one of his poorest songs. His drug addled ranting is impressive to some apparently. The sweeping assumptions involved in the lyrics were so embarrassing that Lennon himself was critical of the song but, of course, I can't put my finger on that interview I know I have heard. It is good the Yoko finally got some credit for writing some of the insipid lyrics.

Forest Gump should'a gotten some credit too.

Btw, this......
"Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger"
.....sounds like a recipe for mass starvation....

 

[YmirGF]

Forest Gump should'a gotten some credit too.

Btw, this......
"Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger"
.....sounds like a recipe for mass starvation....

and as some wrote in criticism, this is coming from a man writing the tune in his multi-million dollar apartment with its splendid penthouse views while his wife was actively out courting business folks of all stripes for interesting new investment opportunities. How radical is that, eh?

 

[dianaiad]

To John's credit he did use "religion" as opposed to "belief"...

Well, there's a problem.

whenever you get more than one person sharing the same beliefs....you get religion.

 

[BSM1]

Well, there's a problem.

whenever you get more than one person sharing the same beliefs....you get religion.

Exactly...

 

[Wu Wei]

When seeing Paul McCartney recently he gave a tribute to his friend John Lennon which reminded me of his song Imagine. Given the turmoil and anger between countries and religions, his lyrics to his song seem to have so much meaning in our current time.

"Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today... Aha-ah...

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion, too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace... You...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world... You...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one" by John Lennon.
Maybe it is just an idealized dream but its message to me carries the meaning that if we stop seeing us as so different from each other and instead see ourselves as the same above religion, above nationality or race, that we could finally work better in cooperation to solve the disasters that lie ahead. I personally would extend this to the rest of the life on earth too. So as the new year begins maybe we should reflect the wisdom in his words. I wonder if anyone else agrees?

Based on the majority of the responses to your post.... I believe we have a long...LONG way to go....

 

[dianaiad]

He did not say anything about God.

One does not need to believe in a deity to have religion. Just ask a Buddhist.

Frankly, I think that there is a set of atheists that are very religious indeed. Not all of 'em, of course; not even most. However, those who are anti-theist and band together for that common goal, share similar opinions and methods, etc., act just like the religions they most despise.

As for me, if it looks, acts and talks like a religion, then I think it probably is one...even if they have a real problem admitting it.

 

[Bear Wild]

I posted his song because we are at a point in human history when global cooperation is needed more than ever. The problem seems to me that there is still too much conflict between religions and nationalities not to mention races yet for us to solve what we are going to face we will need to transcend all of the things that divide us. This includes the political parties in my country that are blind to what we are facing including the president who promotes division. Maybe some do not like John Lennon and many do not want to give up their religion yet the basic meaning of rising above the differences in cooperation is more important now than ever so I still think the lyrics give the message we need to listen to even if you are not a fan of John Lennon.

 

[Shantanu]

One does not need to believe in a deity to have religion. Just ask a Buddhist.

Frankly, I think that there is a set of atheists that are very religious indeed. Not all of 'em, of course; not even most. However, those who are anti-theist and band together for that common goal, share similar opinions and methods, etc., act just like the religions they most despise.

As for me, if it looks, acts and talks like a religion, then I think it probably is one...even if they have a real problem admitting it.

If it is a faith that something will lead to salvation of sorts, it is a religion.

 

[Revoltingest]

and as some wrote in criticism, this is coming from a man writing the tune in his multi-million dollar apartment with its splendid penthouse views while his wife was actively out courting business folks of all stripes for interesting new investment opportunities. How radical is that, eh?

Everyone, even wealthy radical commies, should still
make wise investments until the revolution comes.

 

[dianaiad]

If it is a faith that something will lead to salvation of sorts, it is a religion.

Well, the dictionary has one definition that agrees with you, but it also defines religion as:

a pursuit or interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance.

It is in this sense that I think that subset of atheists qualifies.

 

[Shantanu]

Well, the dictionary has one definition that agrees with you, but it also defines religion as:

a pursuit or interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance.

It is in this sense that I think that subset of atheists qualifies.

Atheists have faith in their own intelligence, moral science and abilities which derive from gods and goddesses unknown to them.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

When seeing Paul McCartney recently he gave a tribute to his friend John Lennon which reminded me of his song Imagine. Given the turmoil and anger between countries and religions, his lyrics to his song seem to have so much meaning in our current time.

"Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today... Aha-ah...

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion, too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace... You...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world... You...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one" by John Lennon.
Maybe it is just an idealized dream but its message to me carries the meaning that if we stop seeing us as so different from each other and instead see ourselves as the same above religion, above nationality or race, that we could finally work better in cooperation to solve the disasters that lie ahead. I personally would extend this to the rest of the life on earth too. So as the new year begins maybe we should reflect the wisdom in his words. I wonder if anyone else agrees?

Imagine is amazingly beautiful musically, and presents a world at peace. But peace at what cost?

The song suggests "imagine nothing to die for, and no religion too." Nothing worth dying for?????? What a cheap world. And a world without religion? That would be a NIGHTMARE.

No peace is worth that cost.

 

[dianaiad]

Atheists have faith in their own intelligence, moral science and abilities which derive from gods and goddesses unknown to them.

I was going along with you just fine until I got to "abilities which derive from gods and goddesses unknown to them." I think this particular subset of atheists will rather strongly disagree with you. They are of the very strong opinion that there are NO gods or goddesses from which to 'derive' anything at all. In fact, those who would agree with you on that matter would be better called 'deists' or 'agnostic." I think 'atheism' chimes in at 'I see no evidence that there are any gods/goddesses,' not that there are some...but we just don't know who or what they are.

However, I think I'll have to let an atheist or two confirm that one for us. Me? I'm a theist with a very definite set of beliefs in a very definite description of deity.

 

[Shantanu]

I was going along with you just fine until I got to "abilities which derive from gods and goddesses unknown to them." I think this particular subset of atheists will rather strongly disagree with you. They are of the very strong opinion that there are NO gods or goddesses from which to 'derive' anything at all. In fact, those who would agree with you on that matter would be better called 'deists' or 'agnostic." I think 'atheism' chimes in at 'I see no evidence that there are any gods/goddesses,' not that there are some...but we just don't know who or what they are.

However, I think I'll have to let an atheist or two confirm that one for us. Me? I'm a theist with a very definite set of beliefs in a very definite description of deity.

Do you dispute the fact that the diversity in human beings when we all appear 'human' is due to genetic factors caused by a hitherto scientifically unknown mechanism?

 

[Brickjectivity]

and as some wrote in criticism, this is coming from a man writing the tune in his multi-million dollar apartment with its splendid penthouse views while his wife was actively out courting business folks of all stripes for interesting new investment opportunities. How radical is that, eh?

True. At the same time some of great ideas have been produced by dishonest people, such as Thomas Jefferson. Just because someone doesn't carry through with a virtuous action doesn't mean that they can't identify with virtue mentally and envision virtuous ideas. Lennon could say good things. I'd say he's a good entertainer and leave it at that.

 

[Watchmen]

I despise the song.

 

[Curious George]

No...actually I'm just tired of those anti-theists who keep quoting "Imagine" as if it were Holy Writ in their constant quest to rid the world of religion, as if their 'imagination' and the elimination of something that if they are RIGHT is a man-made construct. If they are RIGHT, getting rid of religion would not only NOT solve the problems they think it would, history has shown us that forcing the elimination of religion is an extremely nasty and violent thing to do. Democidal. Genocidal.

And people would still go on doing what those anti-theist types are blaming religion for.

"Imagine" seems to be their anthem.

.....and frankly, I don't see that it has motivated anything but people sitting around a campfire alternating 'Imagine' with "Kumbaya." (which is a combination that has always made me go wait...what?) I haven't seen that it has motivated any actual DEEDS of kindness. "Non-violence' is simply NOT doing something, and 'joy' is purely personal. Wonderful, but it doesn't affect anybody ELSE.

Our job in this world, I believe, is not to HAVE joy (though we do get that) but to GIVE joy. Not to simply 'be non-violent," but to protect others against violence. Not to imagine, but to DO. Not to sit around and sing idealistic (with incredibly stupid ideals) but to work to make others well, and happy, and able to have their own joys and peace.

THAT'S what we should be doing. And that's the only thing that will, perhaps, bring peace to the world.

That song? There's nothing about it's ideals that would even begin to accomplish that.

Yeah, i am just reading more bitterness.

Few people can claim to be as influential towards peace and joy than the beatles. I am not saying that no others have such claims. I am just suggesting that it is not common.

Disagree with the premise all you want. But there is little rarionale for your emotive display here.

I cannot imagine why you carry such animosity towards such a peaceful song and peaceful message.

 

[dianaiad]

Do you dispute the fact that the diversity in human beings when we all appear 'human' is due to genetic factors caused by a hitherto scientifically unknown mechanism?

Nope. I happen to think that evolution is how 'God did it." I also believe that He probably loves the diversity that showed up as a result as much as we appreciate it; probably more, because HE isn't trying to eliminate species as fast as He can at the moment. We are.

I also believe that the Grand Canyon took millions of years to become what it is today, and that the scablands of eastern Washington took...perhaps...days to be carved out through more than one catastrophic flood.

I believe that God has given us two sets of 'scripture' from which to understand Him and His creations. One is through written scripture, which tells us (through the eyes of the prophets who actually wrote them) how He wants us to deal with one another, and the other is the very creation He made; the universe itself and, more closely, the planet and solar system we live in. If we don't learn as much as we can from both sets of information, we are really missing the whole point of being alive. At least, that's what I think.

The problems only happen when people figure that science can explain religious things, and that scripture has anything at all to do with what science discovers about the physical world. Or to put this another way:

Science is about telling us what and how.
The bible (and other books that claim to be scripture) tell us why.

I'm quite happy, and excited about, both...and new discoveries made by the scientific method do NOT tell us 'why,' but the process? The What and the How? they are very much worth knowing and learning about.

AND I think that God wants us to learn everything we can about everything we can.