Jenny Collins
Active Member
True
True
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
If Jesus is God why doesn't the Bible say so?
- Thread starter SethZaddik
- Start date
moorea944
Well-Known Member
Yes, and no........ No, in a sense that it doesnt actually mean Jesus. But it can and does at times involve him.
"God" in Hebrew can mean different things. Elohim, Eloah, or EL.
EL
(Pronounced Ail, rendered "God") - "As this word passed before the mind of the Hebrew, the idea of Power, Might, Strength, stood out in bold relief". "It always presented to the Hebrews the idea of strength and power". "EL" stands for the Great FIRST CAUSE, for POWER UNCREATE, the substratum of all creation, and the means whereby the angels (Elohistic messengers) performed their duties and the Lord His miracles. "It is El that girdeth me with strength," declared the Psalmist (Ps. 18v32)
ELOAH
(Rendered "God") singifies Mighty One, one whose might is drived from EL, thus Deity in specific manifestion. See Job 19v26, Hab. 3v3, where the word is used of Christ, the manifestation of the Father (the latter reference should be in the future tense - "shall come")
ELOHIM
(Rendered "God"). Plural from of the above. Deity in multitudinous manisfestation. The word, though plural, is often used with a singular verb, indicating that though the Elohim may constitute a multitude, one Eternal Spirit motivates them all, thus revealing Deity in manifestation - e.g Psalm 95v7: "He (Yahweh) is our Elohim (Mighty Ones)". The angels were the "ministers of Yahweh" excelling in His strength (Ps 103v20-22). "For Yahweh is a great El and a great King above all Elohim" (Ps. 95v3). "Elohim" comes from a word ALAH to swear to bind oneself by an oath, so that though a multitude that no one can number, the Elohim act as a single unit; they are united together and with Yahweh, with ties that are indivisible. The word is translated "angels" in Ps. 8v5, and "judges" in Exod. 21v6, 22v8-9, 28, because the latter revealed Yahweh's law and judgement to the nation.
Sometimes we need to be careful not to bring up Jesus as God, since he is not our creator or God Himself. Jesus does carry and bear God's name, and so do we, but most titles are to refer to GOD Himself.
Jenny Collins
Active Member
Wasn't Moses called Elohim in the Bible? Was he one manifestation of multiple entities?
To me, Jesus is Not God because the Tetragrammaton (YHWH) never applies to Jesus.
The two (2) LORD/Lord's of Psalms 110 (KJV) are two (2) separate persons.
KJV LORD ( where the Tetragrammaton stands ) stands for LORD GOD (YHWH)
Whereas Lord ( Not in all capital letters ) stands for Lord Jesus - Colossians 3:1
The Tetragrammaton is never applied to the ' Lord ' in some lower-case letters.
Could you please give more information about ' for POWER UNCREATE '.
When God sends forth His spirit things are created - Psalms 104:30
Last edited:
I will be brief, neither Jesus who is also the Father could ever be the God of the Old Testament Yahweh/Jehovah, a war monger and baby bashing God. Satan from Job is a Prosecutor, an accuser/adjudicator but not an evil person, whereas the Jewish God is "I Jehovah am a man of war" Exodus 15:3 the opposite of the Loving Father, that says love your enemies, and cares even for a sparrow. It is this Semitic God Jehovah that is behind all the wars and terror in this world Today. This is the ancient serpent and his seed is the Jewish race. That does not mean all the Jews Today are the seed of the serpent as they have no proof they are descendants of Abraham anymore than the Indians, but it seems the Arabs have as a race from Ishmael and their warlike behavior. The only sign of the seed of Jehovah is your warlike behavior. The characters of the Bible are largely symbolic, they may well depict certain aspects our own personality we need to judge and other aspects to promote. The Old Testament should not be attached to the New Testament as Marcion's Bible the first well before the present Bible rejected.
moorea944
Well-Known Member
Actually, yes.
Jenny Collins
Active Member
So was Moses made up of three beings?
moorea944
Well-Known Member
I totally agree with you.
You mean Col 1v3??? Didn't see it in Col 3v1. But anyhow....
In the Psalms, David calls YAHWEH, LORD and Lord. Moses and some angels are called Lord too. In the NT, Jesus is always called Lord and not LORD. But I wouldnt say that "Lord" stands for Jesus, but it doesnt. It is a title of authority. Jesus has it, GOD has it, Moses had it, etc.....
Jonathan Hoffman
Active Member
Was Paul one of the 12 apostles of the Lamb or was Mathias? Or was Paul the 13th apostle?
SethZaddik
Active Member
If you read the first chapter of Acts where it says Matthias replaced Judas you will have your answer.
Although I guess you have it already but at least you know where the answer is. I did a thread "Paul is not an Apostle" a week ago that explains everything.
According to Jesus p who chose 12 Apostles (obviously to match the 12 tribes or 11&2/2 tribes), Luke who announced the exact qualifications and Revelation "Vision of New Jerusalem" there can be no "13th apostle."
Ephesus is congratulated in that same book for spotting and rejecting false apostles (like Paul, who "all those who are in Asia have turned" from "Me" or Paul).
Jesus didn't rebuke anyone for that.
He did rebuke anyone who did as Paul did and taught the "doctrine of Balaam" which is a reference to Paul's writings and teachings that it is OK to eat meat sacrificed to idols because "an idol is nothing."
Not according to Jesus p and the Holy Spirit at the Jerusalem Council with James p though, or God in the entire OT, but Paul alone.
Last edited:
SethZaddik
Active Member
According to Jerome who translated "Gospel of the Hebrews" Jesus p said:
"My Mother, the Holy Spirit..." took me to Mt. Tabor.
Jerome explains that this should not offend anyone as previous authors of previous generations condemned it.
He states that Jesus p only says "My Mother" because in the Hebrew tongue Spirit is feminine, in Greek masculine and Latin neuter.
But this would logically apply to all instances of "My Father" as well, it could be said God, YHVH, is masculine so He is called masculine, and this is the case in the Zohar (Elohim is feminine, Mercy), but that is a different subject, God is masculine in the Bible.
If "My Mother, the Holy Spirit" can be explained away by linguistic issues, "My Father" can be too.
Regardless the Father is God, Jesus p is the Messiah or if you like "son" but He is "Our Father" too, so we are all His children.
The Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit of God, in Christianity it is a separate God because they wanted a Trinity like the Egyptians and Indians, probably, and because it was easier to make Jesus as God more acceptable to pagan Romans.
But Jesus p is never said to be God or equal to God in the Bible, as I have explained since the OP. He denies it many times and it can not be denied when looked at, see OP.
As we all know 3=3 and no amount of sophistry is going to change that. If you have 3 Gods you are literally a polytheist, Tritheist, specifically.
Simply claiming, by way of "mystery", that 3 are 1 might work on people disinterested in logic and the actual words of the Bible.
Because it doesn't say "Trinity" or " 3 are 1 God" at all, even if you stretch logic you can't say it says those things.
It doesn't even say Jesus p is God.
Like King David he is called "son", early MSS. of Luke have Psalm 2:7 quoted at Jesus' p Baptism as did Gospel of the Hebrews.
Last, a "High Priest according to the order of Melchizedek" is a "High Priest" of God.
God, however, is not a Priest of any sort.
Not equal. Jesus power is "Given" him, not from him originally.
psychoslice
Veteran Member
Like most scriptures, you can read whatever you want, it will depend on your level of Consciousness, that is the level you will see and act from.
moorea944
Well-Known Member
Why does it have to be 3 beings? Just curious.....
SethZaddik
Active Member
That is pretty true.
But what the book means to say is what is most important to truth and theology.
If it never says Jesus p is God, language is manipulated in translation (Ton theon should be "God" theos should not, it makes it seem like it originally said something it did not, theos= divine or A god, a lesser god that The God or Ton theon) and the Trinity invented by men and not even in the Bible, but in the Nicene Creed, some SERIOUS deception has been employed to make a man who wanted anything but to be called God, called "God" by over a billion people.
I have a problem with it. It means that most don't read the Bible, the ones that do are told how to (mis)interpret it to reach the conclusions desired, and the ones who do realize it have no voice in church and no church to go to as they pretty much all but a few believe in the Trinity.
If the truth was ever taught en masse in the churches, the misinterpretations to make Jesus look like God revealed as such, it would only mildly disrupt things but eventually people would be fine with it. It just means that there is one God and Jesus is the Messiah and second in command, so to speak.
Things would probably improve, is my theory. It will never be tested though.
Have a good day!
psychoslice
Veteran Member
Lets face it what we have in the bible especially the new testament is nothing more than a whole lot of words shuffled about, which also have been changed and added to over many years, why on earth would anyone take them seriously, I for one don't.
Jenny Collins
Active Member
psychoslice
Veteran Member
Many will simply believe what they want to believe, and Jesus being god is one of those beliefs.
Norbert Tinca
New Member
John 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10. Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
This is another proof that the bible talk about Jesus is God. Here another.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost
Peter, when the holy spirit came down to him, he has the revelation what that NAME means.
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Yes, in the beginning was the WORD. This is the Old Testament, the Torah of the jews. That is their God, their teachings about God, the laws. Yes. A God if you want. Among many others. But also this teaching talk about the coming of God on earth. Emmanuel - God with us. When the time come God was born in flesh an live with us 33 years. His mean is not to clarify the Torah but to:
Mat 3:15 Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness.
John 19:28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
Jesus was here not to clarify, but to fullfill what it been in the scripture. Himself talking about Moses that wrote about HIM in John 5. Much more, the people that lives in that days fulfill all that was written of Him too. Even without of their knowing.
Acts 13:27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.
29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.
He fulfilled what is wrote about Him, everybody fulfilled what is wrote about Him. He died on the cross, raise from the dead, was seen by more than 500 people, and the rise to heaven. Now the Holy Ghost it's Jesus too. It's GOD in our hearth. In us. In His temple. And if it in us we have no need to question GOD or anything else. We just know it. Knowin the truth free us. The holy ghost is a gift from God.
1Jonh 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
Jesus is God. Jesus is the Holy Ghost too. I think Jesus is everything. God is just one. How you pray to God? Let Jesus aside and speak to God? Or pray to each of them separately? Maybe pray to virgin Maria too? We don't even know how to pray.
Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Think that the spirit is another entity or something separate from God? Think about when the holy spirit came down on Jesus in a form of pigeon. And think about the following verses:
Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily
The holy spirit (ghost - how you want it) was God in Jesus. Think about Jesus like a terrestrial vehicle for God if you want.
John 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
And like this, with the sacrifice of Jesus, who have no sin, the Holy Spirit can be given to us. We learn about God in our lifetime, but everything we learned it is wrong. It's human thinking and interpretation. God discover us, trough holy spirit, the truth in us. That means a reborn. To forget everything you ever teached about and let God to interpret his parabolas. Like in Matthew 13. We don't need to talk about the sower and what he was doing. We need the meanings of it. I know that God was the word in the past. He lives on earth 2000 years ago. And now lives in us. Not all of us. It doesn't mean that if I am the son of my father, I am not a father of my son. I am father an son also. The name of the father and the son and the holy spirit is JESUS. He is God. There is no two or three of them. They are not separate.
9. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10. Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
This is another proof that the bible talk about Jesus is God. Here another.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost
Peter, when the holy spirit came down to him, he has the revelation what that NAME means.
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Yes, in the beginning was the WORD. This is the Old Testament, the Torah of the jews. That is their God, their teachings about God, the laws. Yes. A God if you want. Among many others. But also this teaching talk about the coming of God on earth. Emmanuel - God with us. When the time come God was born in flesh an live with us 33 years. His mean is not to clarify the Torah but to:
Mat 3:15 Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness.
John 19:28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
Jesus was here not to clarify, but to fullfill what it been in the scripture. Himself talking about Moses that wrote about HIM in John 5. Much more, the people that lives in that days fulfill all that was written of Him too. Even without of their knowing.
Acts 13:27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.
29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.
He fulfilled what is wrote about Him, everybody fulfilled what is wrote about Him. He died on the cross, raise from the dead, was seen by more than 500 people, and the rise to heaven. Now the Holy Ghost it's Jesus too. It's GOD in our hearth. In us. In His temple. And if it in us we have no need to question GOD or anything else. We just know it. Knowin the truth free us. The holy ghost is a gift from God.
1Jonh 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
Jesus is God. Jesus is the Holy Ghost too. I think Jesus is everything. God is just one. How you pray to God? Let Jesus aside and speak to God? Or pray to each of them separately? Maybe pray to virgin Maria too? We don't even know how to pray.
Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Think that the spirit is another entity or something separate from God? Think about when the holy spirit came down on Jesus in a form of pigeon. And think about the following verses:
Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily
The holy spirit (ghost - how you want it) was God in Jesus. Think about Jesus like a terrestrial vehicle for God if you want.
John 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
And like this, with the sacrifice of Jesus, who have no sin, the Holy Spirit can be given to us. We learn about God in our lifetime, but everything we learned it is wrong. It's human thinking and interpretation. God discover us, trough holy spirit, the truth in us. That means a reborn. To forget everything you ever teached about and let God to interpret his parabolas. Like in Matthew 13. We don't need to talk about the sower and what he was doing. We need the meanings of it. I know that God was the word in the past. He lives on earth 2000 years ago. And now lives in us. Not all of us. It doesn't mean that if I am the son of my father, I am not a father of my son. I am father an son also. The name of the father and the son and the holy spirit is JESUS. He is God. There is no two or three of them. They are not separate.
SethZaddik
Active Member
John 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10. Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
This is another proof that the bible talk about Jesus is God. Here another.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost
Peter, when the holy spirit came down to him, he has the revelation what that NAME means.
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Yes, in the beginning was the WORD. This is the Old Testament, the Torah of the jews. That is their God, their teachings about God, the laws. Yes. A God if you want. Among many others. But also this teaching talk about the coming of God on earth. Emmanuel - God with us. When the time come God was born in flesh an live with us 33 years. His mean is not to clarify the Torah but to:
Mat 3:15 Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness.
John 19:28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
Jesus was here not to clarify, but to fullfill what it been in the scripture. Himself talking about Moses that wrote about HIM in John 5. Much more, the people that lives in that days fulfill all that was written of Him too. Even without of their knowing.
Acts 13:27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.
29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.
He fulfilled what is wrote about Him, everybody fulfilled what is wrote about Him. He died on the cross, raise from the dead, was seen by more than 500 people, and the rise to heaven. Now the Holy Ghost it's Jesus too. It's GOD in our hearth. In us. In His temple. And if it in us we have no need to question GOD or anything else. We just know it. Knowin the truth free us. The holy ghost is a gift from God.
1Jonh 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
Jesus is God. Jesus is the Holy Ghost too. I think Jesus is everything. God is just one. How you pray to God? Let Jesus aside and speak to God? Or pray to each of them separately? Maybe pray to virgin Maria too? We don't even know how to pray.
Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Think that the spirit is another entity or something separate from God? Think about when the holy spirit came down on Jesus in a form of pigeon. And think about the following verses:
Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily
The holy spirit (ghost - how you want it) was God in Jesus. Think about Jesus like a terrestrial vehicle for God if you want.
John 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
And like this, with the sacrifice of Jesus, who have no sin, the Holy Spirit can be given to us. We learn about God in our lifetime, but everything we learned it is wrong. It's human thinking and interpretation. God discover us, trough holy spirit, the truth in us. That means a reborn. To forget everything you ever teached about and let God to interpret his parabolas. Like in Matthew 13. We don't need to talk about the sower and what he was doing. We need the meanings of it. I know that God was the word in the past. He lives on earth 2000 years ago. And now lives in us. Not all of us. It doesn't mean that if I am the son of my father, I am not a father of my son. I am father an son also. The name of the father and the son and the holy spirit is JESUS. He is God. There is no two or three of them. They are not separate.
This thread is about the Bible not saying Jesus (p) is God.
Thanks for sharing, it still doesn't and not anything you or anyone has provided has shown otherwise. Because it doesn't say it.
The Nicene Creed does.