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If humans can't unite on religion, is there a purpose to religion?

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
The ' Tree of Life ' its return is found at Revelation 22:2 because it stands for the ' healing ' of earth's nations.
Earth's nations are here on Earth, and Isaiah 35th chapter describes that coming ' healing ' to be on Earth.
During that 1,000-year governmental reign over Earth even ' enemy death ' will be No more on Earth.
- 1 Corinthians 15:24-26; Isaiah 25:8
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
The ' Tree of Life ' its return is found at Revelation 22:2 because it stands for the ' healing ' of earth's nations.
Earth's nations are here on Earth, and Isaiah 35th chapter describes that coming ' healing ' to be on Earth.[/quote]
I fully agree.
During that 1,000-year governmental reign over Earth even ' enemy death ' will be No more on Earth.
- 1 Corinthians 15:24-26; Isaiah 25:8
I believe that spiritual death will be no more but physical death will always be with us.
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is spiritual death.
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
This is true, but this doesn't mean we can't agree on a lot of truths and unite on Messengers sent by God.



Well, in case of Quran, it claims it's a book of signs, insights and proofs. But I don't understand, if God exists, you saying he can't prove everything about his religion including setting up proofs for his Messengers?

Thinking of religion as a set of beliefs that a person has is a modern development...religion used to be about shaping the character of the person who exerts themselves in a religious fashion. The end product was a soul that others could bare witness to as a holy person. Now we think in terms of a person's dogma as if everyone was a disciplined epistemologist and could be categorized in terms of a set of identifying beliefs into varying species of religion.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Sorry I dont understand what a western religion is. What are they?
Speaking very generally, "Western religions" are the monotheistic religions, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. In Western religion, God is a sentient being who is separate from creation. "Eastern religions" tend to be more philosophical or dharmic, such as Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, and perhaps Confucianism if you stretch it. In Eastern religion, what you have rather than a sentient being is more like a force (although it is perfectly okay if you think of it as a being) that is the source underlying all the universe, usually referred to as Brahman or Tao. This can play a large or small or no role at all in the religion/philosophy.

Obviously this East/West dichotomy leaves out a good many religions, specifically classic European paganism and animism (the older sets). You don't see Zeus or Thor referred to, probably because these religions have died out. Nor do you get any of the New World religions or African religions having their own say -- it's as if they don't exist.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Speaking very generally, "Western religions" are the monotheistic religions, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. In Western religion, God is a sentient being who is separate from creation. "Eastern religions" tend to be more philosophical or dharmic, such as Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, and perhaps Confucianism if you stretch it. In Eastern religion, what you have rather than a sentient being is more like a force (although it is perfectly okay if you think of it as a being) that is the source underlying all the universe, usually referred to as Brahman or Tao. This can play a large or small or no role at all in the religion/philosophy.

Obviously this East/West dichotomy leaves out a good many religions, specifically classic European paganism and animism (the older sets). You don't see Zeus or Thor referred to, probably because these religions have died out. Nor do you get any of the New World religions or African religions having their own say -- it's as if they don't exist.

This is the first time I am hearing Judaism, Christianity and Islam are western religions.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Thinking of religion as a set of beliefs that a person has is a modern development...religion used to be about shaping the character of the person who exerts themselves in a religious fashion. The end product was a soul that others could bare witness to as a holy person. Now we think in terms of a person's dogma as if everyone was a disciplined epistemologist and could be categorized in terms of a set of identifying beliefs into varying species of religion.

What you say is not wrong, and I agree with it.
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
Yes to all recent posts...I am often short on time so my answers are condensed and not fully explained. I should, perhaps, have specified the Abrahamic religions as opposed to West/East.

LIteralism is often found among the adherents of at least the Abrahamic religions and as such those people defend as literally true what is demonstrably not provable nor based on anything other than a source of information which is no less authoritative than another source of information which may contradict it. Since we can play no favorites with any source of information proof lies best in reproducible or connectively reproducible experience. Science is, of course, best at this and any literalistic belief which runs against the scientific grain shows itself to be anti-proof.
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
What you say is not wrong, and I agree with it.

I recently completed watching the Gifford Lectures given by Peter Harrison where he makes the case I just stated. It is a bit difficult to follow as he speaks very abstractly...but also takes the time to fully develop his thoughts. I am sure I will benefit from a repeat watch of this lecture series to understand more fully.

Science, Religion and Modernity
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Yes to all recent posts...I am often short on time so my answers are condensed and not fully explained. I should, perhaps, have specified the Abrahamic religions as opposed to West/East.

LIteralism is often found among the adherents of at least the Abrahamic religions and as such those people defend as literally true what is demonstrably not provable nor based on anything other than a source of information which is no less authoritative than another source of information which may contradict it. Since we can play no favorites with any source of information proof lies best in reproducible or connectively reproducible experience. Science is, of course, best at this and any literalistic belief which runs against the scientific grain shows itself to be anti-proof.

There are ways of God proving his religion. We have to see religion in two ways:

(1) Abstract Religion
(2) Specific instance of the abstract

The question is if you can prove (1), can you prove (2)? Of course, if you prove (2), you can prove (1), because (2) becomes an authority on what is (1). But I think first is first, prove (1), then seek to know through those proofs for (1), what (2) is.

I believe Quran has proofs for (1), and in the way it proves (1), it proves (2). It also has proofs for (2) in terms of eloquence superiority, but this is not the only proof, but Muslims are only familiar with that. The problem with the latter, is you need to be immersed with Quran and Arabic to know this divine miracle.

So I propose much of the Quran is about proving what is (1), and if you can prove it, I believe you can narrow the potential instances of it to the specific, as nothing can be an instance of the abstract one but the concrete one from God in theory.

What do I mean by abstract. For example, the concept of a reminder. There is the concept, and there is the very instances of it (Quran). Can argue the need of a divine book without knowing the right one? I think we can.

Another example, is the concept of family of the reminder, in terms that chosen guides and teachers come in form of groups knowns as a family, there is the general concept than there is specific cases in the past, like family of Abraham, and the question is what is the purpose of such a family and is there need of one in current time.

Another example, is one generic founder and another generic founder from God, do they need a constant number in terms of succession? I think in abstract they do. Then we can research what is the only potential number historically and now? The number is Twelve.

There is of course the general concept of connecting to God and praying to him, and as abstract concept the idea of ritual of that which humans can unite on and have inward realities in drawing us closer to God. There is the general concept and specific.

So in proving these general concepts (need of kings from God for example), we can start to look what meets that criteria.
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
There are ways of God proving his religion. We have to see religion in two ways:

(1) Abstract Religion
(2) Specific instance of the abstract

The question is if you can prove (1), can you prove (2)? Of course, if you prove (2), you can prove (1), because (2) becomes an authority on what is (1). But I think first is first, prove (1), then seek to know through those proofs for (1), what (2) is.

I believe Quran has proofs for (1), and in the way it proves (1), it proves (2). It also has proofs for (2) in terms of eloquence superiority, but this is not the only proof, but Muslims are only familiar with that. The problem with the latter, is you need to be immersed with Quran and Arabic to know this divine miracle.

So I propose much of the Quran is about proving what is (1), and if you can prove it, I believe you can narrow the potential instances of it to the specific, as nothing can be an instance of the abstract one but the concrete one from God in theory.

What do I mean by abstract. For example, the concept of a reminder. There is the concept, and there is the very instances of it (Quran). Can argue the need of a divine book without knowing the right one? I think we can.

Another example, is the concept of family of the reminder, in terms that chosen guides and teachers come in form of groups knowns as a family, there is the general concept than there is specific cases in the past, like family of Abraham, and the question is what is the purpose of such a family and is there need of one in current time.

Another example, is one generic founder and another generic founder from God, do they need a constant number in terms of succession? I think in abstract they do. Then we can research what is the only potential number historically and now? The number is Twelve.

There is of course the general concept of connecting to God and praying to him, and as abstract concept the idea of ritual of that which humans can unite on and have inward realities in drawing us closer to God. There is the general concept and specific.

So in proving these general concepts (need of kings from God for example), we can start to look what meets that criteria.

I'm afraid I'm not following you here...to me an abstraction is always drawn from specific instances that seem, to our perception, to belong together due to some similar quality or pattern they all have. If an abstraction is to carry its own sense of being it must be referenced when predicting an unknown outcome of some process. If the abstraction is itself real and not just a mental construct, then it will prove itself as new religious traditions (or other religious traditions) are examined.

So to look at the general concept (or as I would say the story motif) of the family special to the tradition...one example, as you give, is that of Abraham's family story as featured in Genesis. Another example would be the Kuru family as described in the Mahabharata. Any epic narrative which contains generations of a family who, for a given religious culture, are seen as most significant examples of how to, or not, relate to God would be particular examples of the "special family" idea. Given that these stories are embedded in sacred literature (that is, works written down by humans who more or less have intentionally utilized particular creative styles and structures in their story telling), the general pattern is that epic religious narrative may contain depictions of "special families". It, of course, does not prove that they ever existed literally only that they, to whatever extent, are features of religious culture.

Now to say that the story of Abraham's family exists and the story of the Kuru family exists is trivial and only requires the proof that you can go on Amazon, order a number of books which tell those stories, and no one complains that there is no content in these works. To say that the abstract idea of "special families" exists is a little less trivial, but as soon as one creates a list of such families and, in particular, starts to show the similarity between the stories of these families, then it is not too hard to "prove" that such an abstraction has value.

Now if what I have said here is in keeping with what you are saying, then perhaps where I get lost is in the significance of this with respect to proof and literalism. For me literalism is making the unsubstantiated leap of saying that the events of these ancient stories are literal history. There is little to no evidence for this in the case of Kuru or Abraham to my knowledge. This would require archeological evidence (of a non-literary kind) of which I do not think there is any.
 
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