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I was accosted by a couple of Born-again Christians while fishing

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Your ignorance is still showing.

A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment. Such fact-supported theories are not "guesses" but reliable accounts of the real world. The theory of biological evolution is more than "just a theory". It is as factual an explanation of the universe as the atomic theory of matter or the germ theory of disease. Our understanding of gravity is still a work in progress. But the phenomenon of gravity, like evolution, is an accepted fact.

Yeah, well then this:
According to Robert Priddy, all scientific study inescapably builds on at least some essential assumptions that cannot be tested by scientific processes;[43] that is, that scientists must start with some assumptions as to the ultimate analysis of the facts with which it deals. These assumptions would then be justified partly by their adherence to the types of occurrence of which we are directly conscious, and partly by their success in representing the observed facts with a certain generality, devoid of ad hoc suppositions."[44] Kuhn also claims that all science is based on assumptions about the character of the universe, rather than merely on empirical facts. These assumptions – a paradigm – comprise a collection of beliefs, values and techniques that are held by a given scientific community, which legitimize their systems and set the limitations to their investigation.[45] For naturalists, nature is the only reality, the "correct" paradigm, and there is no such thing as supernatural, i.e. anything above, beyond, or outside of nature. The scientific method is to be used to investigate all reality, including the human spirit.[46]
 

PureX

Veteran Member
I don't know who wrote that but they were clearly confused.
Your ignorance is still showing.

A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment.
A scientific theory is a plausible but as yet unconfirmed explanation for observed physical phenomena. Scientific theories are deemed to remain plausible or are rendered implausible according to their ability to produce predicted results when tested. At no time, however, are they deemed to be "fact", or "truth".
Such fact-supported theories are not "guesses" but reliable accounts of the real world.
That's exactly what they are not. They are and they remain plausible theories so long as they produce the predicted results when tested.
The theory of biological evolution is more than "just a theory". It is as factual an explanation of the universe as the atomic theory of matter or the germ theory of disease.
Again, this is exactly what it is NOT. Whoever wrote this has clearly fallen under the spell of "scientism", wherein science has become their 'fountain of truth'.
Our understanding of gravity is still a work in progress. But the phenomenon of gravity, like evolution, is an accepted fact.
Gravity is not a "fact". Gravity is an observed phenomenon. One that has not as yet been fully explored and therefor has not been fully explained.
 

SalixIncendium

अहं ब्रह्मास्मि
Staff member
Premium Member
I don't know who wrote that but they were clearly confused.

A scientific theory is a plausible but as yet unconfirmed explanation for observed physical phenomena. Scientific theories are deemed to remain plausible or are rendered implausible according to their ability to produce predicted results when tested. At no time, however, are they deemed to be "fact", or "truth".

That's exactly what they are not. They are and they remain plausible theories so long as they produce the predicted results when tested.

Again, this is exactly what it is NOT. Whoever wrote this has clearly fallen under the spell of "scientism", wherein science has become their 'fountain of truth'.

Gravity is not a "fact". Gravity is an observed phenomenon. One that has not as yet been fully explored and therefor has not been fully explained.
[citation needed]
 

Audie

Veteran Member
I don't know who wrote that but they were clearly confused.

A scientific theory is a plausible but as yet unconfirmed explanation for observed physical phenomena. Scientific theories are deemed to remain plausible or are rendered implausible according to their ability to produce predicted results when tested. At no time, however, are they deemed to be "fact", or "truth".

That's exactly what they are not. They are and they remain plausible theories so long as they produce the predicted results when tested.

Again, this is exactly what it is NOT. Whoever wrote this has clearly fallen under the spell of "scientism", wherein science has become their 'fountain of truth'.

Gravity is not a "fact". Gravity is an observed phenomenon. One that has not as yet been fully explored and therefor has not been fully explained.
Not reliable? Something that has
always worked, without exception is not
reliable?

WHOEVER came up with that is ery confused.
 

dfnj

Well-Known Member
Good story.

What was it you were wishing to debate?

I was just minding my own business. I was wishing for anything. I was just fishing.

One more addition to the story. When the guy said his name was "Happy," I told him if I were named like him my name would be "Curmudge."
 

Audie

Veteran Member
I was just minding my own business. I was wishing for anything. I was just fishing.

One more addition to the story. When the guy said his name was "Happy," I told him if I were named like him my name would be "Curmudge."
How do you do. My name is happy.
Now you're gonna die!
 

Sand Dancer

Crazy Cat Lady
I was trapped at the end of the peninsula with all my poles in the water! I tried not to get involved but they whittled me down.
They do that, don't they? Sometimes there is no recourse other than to just be rude right back. You might want to call on Satan to help you make a decision. Ask them to help consult your long dead Uncle Wally to help. That might scare them off.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Well, philosophy of science is not your strong suit.
OIP.HO_GKROqxLgaKe8ZGYcs5gHaHa
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
A scientific theory is a plausible but as yet unconfirmed explanation for observed physical phenomena.
That's just wrong.
For example, the General Theory Of Relativity has
been confirmed in many experiments.
Don't confuse confirmation with proof. Theories
about the natural world are never proven true.
Instead, they're found useful.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
best thing to do is just say, "Please go away." Keep repeating it.
I'd take out my Survival knife and tenderly shine it as they talked, looking a bit off my rocker trying to act like Gary Busey.

Beg them to stay the night at the campfire.

Watch them conclude themselves as they run away very fast.
 

Gargovic Malkav

Well-Known Member
I'm at the lake minding my own business. Fishing in New Jersey requires high levels of patience. I'm 5 hours into fishing and I haven't caught a single fish. I had a few nibbles but no fish so I wasn't in the best of moods. Where I fish it's a small peninsula and I'm fishing at the tip. So a guy and a girl walk up to me and start talking. I'm being friendly and all but I'm kind of trapped at the end of the peninsula with all my fishing gear in the water. And then the guy, who said his name was "Happy", started talking about the bible and the story of Jonah and the whale. The guy asks me what do I think about the story being a fisherman and all. And I'm thinking, "oh boy, here we go." I said, "it's a story about falling down into the depths of despair and through transformation we return back to the real world as a stronger person." The guy chuckled a bit. And then started talking about had I ever thought about where life comes from. And I said, "forget about evolution, exogenesis is the real interesting topic." The guy then showed me a leaf from a nearby bush and said to me, "life coming into existences is just too improbable to happen by just luck."

He went on to say, "no one has ever created life in a laboratory." And I said, "nonsense, with exogenesis, given enough time it's like lottery math. If you buy enough tickets, no matter how improbable the event may be, eventually you are going to win. The reason life has never been created in a laboratory is because it has not been attempted enough times." He then said, "life is too complicated to be created." And I said, "nonsense, life is like a ball rolling down a hill. At the top of the hill you have the greatest potential for movement. At the bottom of the hill all the energy is expended. With life, the ball and the hill form a feedback loop where the ball never stops rolling down the hill." We argued a bit and then he then he said, "evolution is just a theory," at which point I was beginning to lose my patience. So I said, "have you ever studied evolution. Take fish for example. Fish have two pectoral fins which are like arms. Fish have two pelvic fins which are like legs. Fish have two eyes, two nostrils, one mouth, a spine, and a poop hole. There's no way this is just coincidence. We came from fish."

He then said, "look at your shoe. If you came across your shoe you would know it was created by intelligence." I chimed in, "I know where you are going and I will say right off the bat there's nothing intelligent about the design of my body. And I pointed out the huge scar I have where I had my left knee replaced. I then said, "if our body's were truly intelligently designed then people's arms and fingers would grow back after they were cut off. That's how I would have designed our bodies."

He did not like what I was saying and changed the subject. He then started talking about if I knew what was going to happen to me when I die. I said, "I'm never going to die. I will live on in my children and the people around me. As long as the human race continues to be alive, everything that is me will live on. " He look at me like I was crazy. I then said, "Take sex for example. None of us invented sex. It's just part of what it means to be a human being. The same is true with every other aspect of our human character. Everything that we think is unique about us exists in other people. It's just ego delusion to think we are unique. So everything I cherish most will continue to live on in other people."

He then said, "but what about you when you die." And I said, "my brain will stop working and my body will decay. But everything I hold dear will continue to exist in the people around me." Again, he frowned a bit and changed the subject. He then asked me had I ever done anything evil. I said, "of course I have. Too many times." I then told him that I joke with my wife that when I die she should have me cremated and pour my ashes into the lake because I have killed so many baitfish in my life. And this way, the baitfish can feed on my ashes. He smiled a bit and then said "it's not good to be evil and you will be judged." And I said, "What is evil is a bit of a tricky subject because it's only evil if you hurt someone else's vitality or enthusiasm. And many times, no matter what you do you end up hurting someone because you are forced to choose the lesser of two evils." He then started saying evil is absolute like killing someone. I then said, "nonsense, when soldiers kill many times it's not considered evil. Or self-defense." We argued a bit about evil. I said, "What is evil changes over time. Take slavery in the bible. The bible is written as if slavery is morally okay. But today it isn't." He didn't like my reasoning. I continued, "evil is like words and language in society. The meaning of words change over time. But with society on a whole words have certain accepted meanings. The same is true with evil."

He then started saying, "what about what happens to you when you die. You should be afraid of what is going to happen to you." I said, "I'm not afraid because every aspect of who I am is going to live on in other people. My sense of humor. What I value most. What I love. What I appreciate." He was not impressed with my argument. And at this exact moment, after 5 hours, I get a bite on one of my poles. I catch a small green perch. He said, "see, God has helped you." I said, "nonsense, if God were helping me it would not have taken me 5 hours to catch just one fish." The girl with the guy didn't say much but smiled every time we made eye contact. I really wanted to keep the green perch and use it for bait. Normally, I would have just cut the head right off. But I figured I'd show my two new friends what a nice person I was by throwing the baitfish back into the lake. But I really wanted to keep the baitfish and cut its head off. I never at any point claimed I was a good person. The way I see it, fish eat other fish all the time. I'm just doing God's work when I'm fishing. Cutting up baitfish is all part of God's master plan.

I guess they were fishing too... And they didn't catch much either...
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The guy asks me what do I think about the story being a fisherman and all. And I'm thinking, "oh boy, here we go."
I would enjoy the encounter, although not necessarily if I were busy and needed quiet. These days, that only happens when the Jehovah's Witnesses come knocking. The last two of those visits have been cut off by them, and rather quickly despite my being friendly and cooperative.

The first visit began by assuming that the world was a terrible place, getting worse, and that I agreed with that. I did not. I explained that although many live difficult lives, the world is also a wonderful place for many, and that I was happy being in it. That was literally the end of the discussion. They said thank you and moved along. That surprised me. It had never been that brief before. Were they unprepared for and stymied by my answer? That didn't seem possible, but what else could it be?

The other people were even less persistent. They began by showing me a passage in their Bible, asked me what I thought about it, I told them that I didn't consider the Bible authoritative (but not that I was unwilling to hear him), and that was the end of that.

What does this mean? Are these people so used to failure converting or even generating interest in visiting their Kingdom Hall that they assume failure now and see the morning as a duty to knock on doors despite it being fruitless? If so, that's got to be a local phenomenon related to that particular congregation, right? That doesn't describe the Witnesses as I remember them.

Anyway, I would have enjoyed your proselytizers at my door if not my fishing hole. Veterans of RF have heard the apologetics before and are ready with responses as you nicely demonstrated.
A scientific theory is a plausible but as yet unconfirmed explanation for observed physical phenomena. Scientific theories are deemed to remain plausible or are rendered implausible according to their ability to produce predicted results when tested.
A scientific theory is confirmed beyond reasonable doubt when its predictions are demonstrated to be correct. The theory of evolution is correct beyond reasonable doubt, as are the heliocentric theory and the germ theory of disease. None will ever be overturned. And yes, I understand that "the planets orbit the sun" is technically that the sun and planets orbit their combined center of mass within the sun. Word it like that if you prefer.
They are and they remain plausible theories so long as they produce the predicted results when tested.
That's all any idea is good for. If you require more, you require what you can't have and don't need.
Gravity is not a "fact". Gravity is an observed phenomenon. One that has not as yet been fully explored and therefor has not been fully explained.
Gravity is an abstraction that describes the fact that massive bodies attract one another. Scientific theories of gravity include mathematics which make specific and accurate predictions, and are reliable on the scales in which they are known to produce accurate predictions.

Epistemic nihilism seems to be a favorite with the faithful, who depend on others to be wrong in their counterarguments. I wrote the following to you in response to your comment, "Pretending that we pursue truth is self-deception. Humans can't know the truth. The best we can get is relative truthfulness."

"Pretending that we can't have accurate, useful information about reality or that that isn't truth is the self-deception. Thinking that things like absolute truth are meaningful ideas is the self-deception. And thinking that faith is a path to truth or that unfalsifiable claims are comparable to empiric truth is self-deception. Epistemic nihilism, the faith-based thinker's friend, is a dead end."
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
I'm at the lake minding my own business. Fishing in New Jersey requires high levels of patience. I'm 5 hours into fishing and I haven't caught a single fish. I had a few nibbles but no fish so I wasn't in the best of moods. Where I fish it's a small peninsula and I'm fishing at the tip. So a guy and a girl walk up to me and start talking. I'm being friendly and all but I'm kind of trapped at the end of the peninsula with all my fishing gear in the water. And then the guy, who said his name was "Happy", started talking about the bible and the story of Jonah and the whale. The guy asks me what do I think about the story being a fisherman and all. And I'm thinking, "oh boy, here we go." I said, "it's a story about falling down into the depths of despair and through transformation we return back to the real world as a stronger person." The guy chuckled a bit. And then started talking about had I ever thought about where life comes from. And I said, "forget about evolution, exogenesis is the real interesting topic." The guy then showed me a leaf from a nearby bush and said to me, "life coming into existences is just too improbable to happen by just luck."

He went on to say, "no one has ever created life in a laboratory." And I said, "nonsense, with exogenesis, given enough time it's like lottery math. If you buy enough tickets, no matter how improbable the event may be, eventually you are going to win. The reason life has never been created in a laboratory is because it has not been attempted enough times." He then said, "life is too complicated to be created." And I said, "nonsense, life is like a ball rolling down a hill. At the top of the hill you have the greatest potential for movement. At the bottom of the hill all the energy is expended. With life, the ball and the hill form a feedback loop where the ball never stops rolling down the hill." We argued a bit and then he then he said, "evolution is just a theory," at which point I was beginning to lose my patience. So I said, "have you ever studied evolution. Take fish for example. Fish have two pectoral fins which are like arms. Fish have two pelvic fins which are like legs. Fish have two eyes, two nostrils, one mouth, a spine, and a poop hole. There's no way this is just coincidence. We came from fish."

He then said, "look at your shoe. If you came across your shoe you would know it was created by intelligence." I chimed in, "I know where you are going and I will say right off the bat there's nothing intelligent about the design of my body. And I pointed out the huge scar I have where I had my left knee replaced. I then said, "if our body's were truly intelligently designed then people's arms and fingers would grow back after they were cut off. That's how I would have designed our bodies."

He did not like what I was saying and changed the subject. He then started talking about if I knew what was going to happen to me when I die. I said, "I'm never going to die. I will live on in my children and the people around me. As long as the human race continues to be alive, everything that is me will live on. " He look at me like I was crazy. I then said, "Take sex for example. None of us invented sex. It's just part of what it means to be a human being. The same is true with every other aspect of our human character. Everything that we think is unique about us exists in other people. It's just ego delusion to think we are unique. So everything I cherish most will continue to live on in other people."

He then said, "but what about you when you die." And I said, "my brain will stop working and my body will decay. But everything I hold dear will continue to exist in the people around me." Again, he frowned a bit and changed the subject. He then asked me had I ever done anything evil. I said, "of course I have. Too many times." I then told him that I joke with my wife that when I die she should have me cremated and pour my ashes into the lake because I have killed so many baitfish in my life. And this way, the baitfish can feed on my ashes. He smiled a bit and then said "it's not good to be evil and you will be judged." And I said, "What is evil is a bit of a tricky subject because it's only evil if you hurt someone else's vitality or enthusiasm. And many times, no matter what you do you end up hurting someone because you are forced to choose the lesser of two evils." He then started saying evil is absolute like killing someone. I then said, "nonsense, when soldiers kill many times it's not considered evil. Or self-defense." We argued a bit about evil. I said, "What is evil changes over time. Take slavery in the bible. The bible is written as if slavery is morally okay. But today it isn't." He didn't like my reasoning. I continued, "evil is like words and language in society. The meaning of words change over time. But with society on a whole words have certain accepted meanings. The same is true with evil."

He then started saying, "what about what happens to you when you die. You should be afraid of what is going to happen to you." I said, "I'm not afraid because every aspect of who I am is going to live on in other people. My sense of humor. What I value most. What I love. What I appreciate." He was not impressed with my argument. And at this exact moment, after 5 hours, I get a bite on one of my poles. I catch a small green perch. He said, "see, God has helped you." I said, "nonsense, if God were helping me it would not have taken me 5 hours to catch just one fish." The girl with the guy didn't say much but smiled every time we made eye contact. I really wanted to keep the green perch and use it for bait. Normally, I would have just cut the head right off. But I figured I'd show my two new friends what a nice person I was by throwing the baitfish back into the lake. But I really wanted to keep the baitfish and cut its head off. I never at any point claimed I was a good person. The way I see it, fish eat other fish all the time. I'm just doing God's work when I'm fishing. Cutting up baitfish is all part of God's master plan.
Having a conversation with you that you choose to carry on, isn't being "accosted". Stop being dramatic. You could've walked away if it bothered you that much.
 

dfnj

Well-Known Member
I'm at the lake minding my own business. Fishing in New Jersey requires high levels of patience. I'm 5 hours into fishing and I haven't caught a single fish. I had a few nibbles but no fish so I wasn't in the best of moods. Where I fish it's a small peninsula and I'm fishing at the tip. So a guy and a girl walk up to me and start talking. I'm being friendly and all but I'm kind of trapped at the end of the peninsula with all my fishing gear in the water. And then the guy, who said his name was "Happy", started talking about the bible and the story of Jonah and the whale. The guy asks me what do I think about the story being a fisherman and all. And I'm thinking, "oh boy, here we go." I said, "it's a story about falling down into the depths of despair and through transformation we return back to the real world as a stronger person." The guy chuckled a bit. And then started talking about had I ever thought about where life comes from. And I said, "forget about evolution, abiogenesis is the real interesting topic." The guy then showed me a leaf from a nearby bush and said to me, "life coming into existences is just too improbable to happen by just luck."

He went on to say, "no one has ever created life in a laboratory." And I said, "nonsense, with abiogenesis, given enough time it's like lottery math. If you buy enough tickets, no matter how improbable the event may be, eventually you are going to win. The reason life has never been created in a laboratory is because it has not been attempted enough times." He then said, "life is too complicated to be created." And I said, "nonsense, life is like a ball rolling down a hill. At the top of the hill you have the greatest potential for movement. At the bottom of the hill all the energy is expended. With life, the ball and the hill form a feedback loop where the ball never stops rolling down the hill." We argued a bit and then he then he said, "evolution is just a theory," at which point I was beginning to lose my patience. So I said, "have you ever studied evolution. Take fish for example. Fish have two pectoral fins which are like arms. Fish have two pelvic fins which are like legs. Fish have two eyes, two nostrils, one mouth, a spine, and a poop hole. There's no way this is just coincidence. We came from fish."

He then said, "look at your shoe. If you came across your shoe you would know it was created by intelligence." I chimed in, "I know where you are going and I will say right off the bat there's nothing intelligent about the design of my body. And I pointed out the huge scar I have where I had my left knee replaced. I then said, "if our body's were truly intelligently designed then people's arms and fingers would grow back after they were cut off. That's how I would have designed our bodies."

He did not like what I was saying and changed the subject. He then started talking about if I knew what was going to happen to me when I die. I said, "I'm never going to die. I will live on in my children and the people around me. As long as the human race continues to be alive, everything that is me will live on. " He look at me like I was crazy. I then said, "Take sex for example. None of us invented sex. It's just part of what it means to be a human being. The same is true with every other aspect of our human character. Everything that we think is unique about us exists in other people. It's just ego delusion to think we are unique. So everything I cherish most will continue to live on in other people."

He then said, "but what about you when you die." And I said, "my brain will stop working and my body will decay. But everything I hold dear will continue to exist in the people around me." Again, he frowned a bit and changed the subject. He then asked me had I ever done anything evil. I said, "of course I have. Too many times." I then told him that I joke with my wife that when I die she should have me cremated and pour my ashes into the lake because I have killed so many baitfish in my life. And this way, the baitfish can feed on my ashes. He smiled a bit and then said "it's not good to be evil and you will be judged." And I said, "What is evil is a bit of a tricky subject because it's only evil if you hurt someone else's vitality or enthusiasm. And many times, no matter what you do you end up hurting someone because you are forced to choose the lesser of two evils." He then started saying evil is absolute like killing someone. I then said, "nonsense, when soldiers kill many times it's not considered evil. Or self-defense." We argued a bit about evil. I said, "What is evil changes over time. Take slavery in the bible. The bible is written as if slavery is morally okay. But today it isn't." He didn't like my reasoning. I continued, "evil is like words and language in society. The meaning of words change over time. But with society on a whole words have certain accepted meanings. The same is true with evil."

He then started saying, "what about what happens to you when you die. You should be afraid of what is going to happen to you." I said, "I'm not afraid because every aspect of who I am is going to live on in other people. My sense of humor. What I value most. What I love. What I appreciate." He was not impressed with my argument. And at this exact moment, after 5 hours, I get a bite on one of my poles. I catch a small green perch. He said, "see, God has helped you." I said, "nonsense, if God were helping me it would not have taken me 5 hours to catch just one fish." The girl with the guy didn't say much but smiled every time we made eye contact. I really wanted to keep the green perch and use it for bait. Normally, I would have just cut the head right off. But I figured I'd show my two new friends what a nice person I was by throwing the baitfish back into the lake. But I really wanted to keep the baitfish and cut its head off. I never at any point claimed I was a good person. The way I see it, fish eat other fish all the time. I'm just doing God's work when I'm fishing. Cutting up baitfish is all part of God's master plan.

I screwed up. I said "exogenesis" but what I really meant was "abiogenesis". I always get the two mixed up. I was fishing for 5 hours so my wits were not all there.
 
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