I am Starting to Think God is Sadistic

[Koldo]

Santa Clause and the Easter Bunnies were just the inventions of human mind and nothing else.

How do you know that?
Why doesn't the same applies to gods?

Plus, that is besides the point.
Why do you deny your belief on them?

 

[Sunstone]

I think this topic might have been discussed before. If yes then sorry to bother you with another one. This thread is from a general point of view and everyone is invited to debate. God(s)/dess(es), it seems is/are sadistic. For the sake of simplicity let me just use the word 'God'. Almost all scriptures tell us that the bad people suffer for their deeds in this life and if the good ones suffer, it is because they are tested. Does it befit a God? He is creating us either with flaws to sin or an agent provocateur named 'Satan'. Is He biding His time playing games with us? I don't even remember God asking me before I came into this world whether I wanted to be a part of this game or not?

Forgive me if I sound offensive. I didn't mean to do that. But these thoughts have been roaming around in my mind. What do you guys have to say about it?

I think that, at their root, most -- perhaps all -- notions of god are petty. That very much includes the notion that god is a book keeper who tracks rights and wrongs in order to measure out cosmic rewards and punishments.

 

[columbus]

Got it Madhuri. But why would God create flawed beings who will not do good deeds and then suffer?

What this thread is about is generally called "The Problem of Evil".

Here I think you have put your finger on the true PoE. It isn't just viruses and earthquakes. The real problem is the way humans are made.

We are born needy fearful and ignorant. We have a preprogrammed batch of instincts. These instincts are well honed to spread our genes. But the way humans are born practically guarantees immoral behavior. And we can't do anything about that. We can learn to do better than the primates we are closely related to, but we don't always.

Almighty God made us self-centered animals. We sometimes make ourselves and others better than that. But we aren't great at doing so. All God has to offer in the way of help is a batch of self declared spokespersons who wildly contradict each other.

Tom

 

[ametist]

Why must the tiger feel hunger?

It is written in the second paragraph of my previous post. Because there is 'you' and the 'other'.
Then you ask..Why there is me' and 'other'? For you to know yourself and love and chose it again.

 

[illykitty]

Is it fair that God allows the suffering of the powerless to be placed under the responsibility of other human beings who time and time again prove that they are not willing to (as a whole) eliminate abuse? Just look at society today. It is in many ways better than ever before and yet to gain nearly any possession or enjoy nearly any service requires that some human or animal or the environment must suffer/receive harm. This is how the world works. To make something, you have to break something. To live, you have to kill. We can be the best person we can possibly be and still cause pain. That is just part of nature. And eventually every single one of us experiences great loss, pain, suffering and death.

I know that is a beak outlook..but it's also a reality. So then for me at least, the question is why would God do this to us- provide us with a system for survival that is malicious to the core? I have my own beliefs on this but I generally do not understand how people of other beliefs manage to convince themselves that their God is not sadistic.

You keep replying to my answers, and yet I've got to hear your point of view. I though you were dharmic/hindu? So is your god sadistic?

When I look at the universe, I don't see an all powerful and all knowing god. Omnipresent, yes, since I'm panentheistic... But it's obvious that either there's no god, that god isn't omni everything or that there's some explanation I've yet to know. Maybe god isn't a being - maybe like nature it simply is.

All I care about is now we humans act... Don't you believe in karma? Then how is blaming god going to improve our karma? I'm not suggesting there can't be suffering but I'm saying that I don't believe in the traditional god image and I believe humans should take responsibility. Because in the end, we don't know for sure if a god even exist, so all we can know for sure is that we can either make things better or worse. Our choice.

 

[Koldo]

It is written in the second paragraph of my previous post. Because there is 'you' and the 'other'.
Then you ask..Why there is me' and 'other'? For you to know yourself and love and chose it again.

Actually, my question is: What is the connection between the 'you/other' concept and suffering? It seems like there is a leap between saying this dualism exists and stating that it causes suffering. I want to see where the bridge is.

 

[illykitty]

Those who say that evil is for the great good should also realise that God is omnipotent. He can make things happen without all these evil. Again why did He send us here already knowing how we will be? Even the religions which doesn't have hell or heaven has the concept of karma. Why should a deity create flawed beings?

Like Madhuri I say that this God is not worthy of worship.

How do you know for sure the deity is omnipotent? I realise you have Islam as your religion, so your views reflect that...

But maybe the deity isn't. Just consider it for a sec.

 

[Koldo]

All I care about is now we humans act... Don't you believe in karma? Then how is blaming god going to improve our karma? I'm not suggesting there can't be suffering but I'm saying that I don't believe in the traditional god image and I believe humans should take responsibility. Because in the end, we don't know for sure if a god even exist, so all we can know for sure is that we can either make things better or worse. Our choice.

Nobody is saying that humans shouldn't take responsibility.
But responsibility must be taken where responsibility is due.

 

[ametist]

Actually, my question is: What is the connection between the 'you/other' concept and suffering? It seems like there is a leap between saying this dualism exists and stating that it causes suffering. I want to see where the bridge is.

When there is you and another there is always bonding and departing forces arising from your relations which causes emotions like love or hate or anger or compassion. As long as you tell other from yourself you are thrown around in those emotions and real incidents driven by those emotions which causes suffering. You may say how come it is so for love, but It is, as long as it remains an emotion. Compassion for example is a word that comes from suffering together.

 

[illykitty]

Nobody is saying that humans shouldn't take responsibility.
But responsibility must be taken where responsibility is due.

Ok, are you sure a deity exists? If not, how can you ask responsibility where it's "due" if theres no certainty of a deity? There's only one certainty, us.

I feel that's a more realistic and responsible approach than to wave your fist at something that might or might not exist and might or might not have control/power over what's happening and might or might not be responsible...

I could go on with the might/might nots... I'm just showing how silly this is. Even if it exists, is omnipotent and is responsible, then what?

You stop worshipping that deity... But what happens to human responsibility? Are you going to deny all of it because you blame that deity and give up on making yourself and the whole of humanity better?

 

[Koldo]

When there is you and another there is always bonding and departing forces arising from your relations which causes emotions like love or hate or anger or compassion. As long as you tell other from yourself you are thrown around in those emotions and real incidents driven by those emotions which causes suffering. You may say how come it is so for love, but It is, as long as it remains an emotion. Compassion for example is a word that comes from suffering together.

Why do you think that those emotions must appear when one distinguishes himself from 'other' ? It seems to me, hypothetically speaking, possible for someone to have a consciousness like that but being completely emotionless.

 

[ametist]

Why do you think that those emotions must appear when one distinguishes himself from 'other' ? It seems to me, hypothetically speaking, possible for someone to have a consciousness like that but being completely emotionless.

Yes, possible. But then there is no suffering.

 

[Koldo]

Ok, are you sure a deity exists?

No, I am not.

If not, how can you ask responsibility where it's "due" if theres no certainty of a deity? There's only one certainty, us.

Are you responsible for the existence of a natural world that can cause suffering to humankind ? I don't think so.

That is something we can possibly attribute to gods, if they exist, but not to humans.

I feel that's a more realistic and responsible approach than to wave your fist at something that might or might not exist and might or might not have control/power over what's happening and might or might not be responsible...

It is not about waving fists. It is about debating and changing worldviews while comprehending what are our beliefs entail.

I could go on with the might/might nots... I'm just showing how silly this is. Even if it exists, is omnipotent and is responsible, then what?

Then how we interact with and portray this god is going to change accordingly. Have you forgotten how this can change we do ?

You stop worshipping that deity... But what happens to human responsibility? Are you going to deny all of it because you blame that deity and give up on making yourself and the whole of humanity better?

Human responsibility wouldn't change. One way or the other.
I have no idea why you keep bringing it up.

 

[Koldo]

Yes, possible. But then there is no suffering.

And what is wrong with that?

 

[illykitty]

Human responsibility wouldn't change. One way or the other.
I have no idea why you keep bringing it up.

Because it's the only responsibility that actually matters. Anything else doesn't matter because we have no control over. And because I'm scared if the direction humans are going and instead of speculating on things, we should be taking this life seriously.

I'm out of here, I'll leave the speculation to you guys. I feel it's pointless.

 

[Koldo]

Because it's the only responsibility that actually matters. Anything else doesn't matter because we have no control over. And because I'm scared if the direction humans are going and instead of speculating on things, we should be taking this life seriously.

I'm out of here, I'll leave the speculation to you guys. I feel it's pointless.

I disagree. It does matter because it does change how we perceive the world. The very notion that we should do something about human suffering relies on a particular perception of the world. What we envision for humanity may radically change according to our beliefs.

 

[Draupadi]

@Illy Kitty- Even your Gods contain power over certain things of life for which we suffer. Like excessive heat of the sun in the desert. Taking responsibility only partially solves the problem. And doesn't your Gods control our fates? How come some are born with good ones and some bad ones? The fact that God had created some faulty beings who refuses to take responsibility to make this world a better place again creates problem.

 

[DawudTalut]

I think this topic might have been discussed before. If yes then sorry to bother you with another one. This thread is from a general point of view and everyone is invited to debate. God(s)/dess(es), it seems is/are sadistic. For the sake of simplicity let me just use the word 'God'. Almost all scriptures tell us that the bad people suffer for their deeds in this life and if the good ones suffer, it is because they are tested. Does it befit a God? He is creating us either with flaws to sin or an agent provocateur named 'Satan'. Is He biding His time playing games with us? I don't even remember God asking me before I came into this world whether I wanted to be a part of this game or not?

Forgive me if I sound offensive. I didn't mean to do that. But these thoughts have been roaming around in my mind. What do you guys have to say about it?

Peace be on you.

"" The Question of Suffering

..........We understand from the Holy Quran, that God did not create suffering as an independent entity in its own right, but only as an indispensable counterpart of pleasure and comfort. The absence of happiness is suffering, which is like its shadow, just as darkness is the shadow cast by the absence of light. If there is life, there has to be death; both are situated at the extreme poles of the same plane, with innumerable grades and shades in between. As we move away from death, we gradually move towards a state of life which is happiness; as we move away from life, we move away with a sense of loss and sorrow towards death. This is the key to understanding the struggle for existence, which in turn leads to a constant improvement in the quality of life and helps it to achieve the ultimate goal of evolution. The principle of the "survival of the fittest" plays an integral role in this grand scheme of evolution.

This phenomenon is mentioned in the Holy Quran in the following verse:

Blessed is He in whose hand is the kingdom, and He has power over all things;

It is He Who has created death and life that He might try you—which of you is best in deeds; and He is the Mighty, the Most Forgiving. [67:2-3]


The answer to the question 'Why is there suffering?' is clearly implied in this verse in its widest application.

The profound philosophy of life and death, the innumerable shades in between, and the role they play in shaping life and improving its quality are all covered in the above verse. It is the very scheme of things that God discloses here. We know that life is only a positive value, and death merely means its absence, and no sharp border exists separating one from the other. It is a gradual process, the way life travels towards death and ebbs out, or from the other direction we view death travelling towards life gaining strength, energy and consciousness as it moves on. This is the grand plan of creation, but why has God designed it so? 'That He might try you—which of you is best in deeds', is the answer provided by the Holy Quran.

....................
It is this constant struggle between the forces of life and the forces of death which provide the thrust to the living to perpetually move away from death or towards it. It may result either in the improvement or deterioration in the quality of existence in the wide spectrum of evolutionary changes. This is the essence and spirit of evolution.

Suffering could only be considered objectionable if it were created as an independent entity with no meaningful role to play in the scheme of things. But without the taste of suffering or an awareness of what it means, the feeling of relief and comfort would also vanish. Without an encounter with pain and misery, most certainly, joy and happiness would lose all meaning. Indeed the very existence of life would lose purpose, and the steps of evolution would stop dead in their tracks.

During the long history of evolution, disease has arisen from various causes, directly or indirectly related to developmental changes. Environmental variations, the struggle for existence, mutations and accidents, have all jointly or severally played their part. Disease, defects and shortcomings all have a role to play in effecting improvement. This is how various animal species went on evolving unconsciously it seems, but certainly with a direction, which appears to follow a consciously designed course towards greater consciousness.

....

LET US NOW try to conceive another scheme in which the element of suffering is set aside by the application of a hypothetical rule: all forms of life must be equally provided with an equal share of happiness with no portion of suffering at all. Perhaps then we shall be able to eliminate suffering altogether from afflicting life. ..............................

...

Suffering is also associated with the idea of retribution and punishment. Glimpses of retribution can be witnessed in the animal kingdom only in a narrow and limited application. They can be observed in the behaviour of many animals of land, sea and air. Elephants and buffaloes are notorious for their propensity towards revenge. This gradually developing trait of life is inevitably linked up to the gradual synthesis of choice. To do something or not to do something can either be an intuitive compulsion or a calculated decision of mind. We are not yet certain about how far the element of choice plays a role in animal conduct, but we know that choice begins to play a vital role in the decision-making process of humans.

.....


Sometimes people may suffer without realizing that they themselves are to be blamed—that there is a general principle of retribution operative in nature known as nemesis. They may have earned that suffering advertently or inadvertently, without identifying the cause. It is so because every fault does not result in an immediate punitive consequence. It often happens that nature executes justice against transgression imperceptibly.

........

One must not forget that 'cause and effect' is one thing and 'crime and punishment' is quite another, however closely they may seem to resemble each other. It is correct to say that a crime may work as a cause and every punishment that may ensue would be an effect of that causative crime. But it is not correct to claim that every suffering is a punishment of some crime committed before. It is wrong to say that all healthy babies are healthy because they are rewarded for some act of goodness of their parents. So also it is wrong to maintain that every unhealthy baby is punished for an unidentified crime of its parents or forefathers. Health and disease, ability and disability, fortune or misfortune, congenital advantages or disadvantages are themselves but indispensable to the grand scheme of things, in which they play a causative role. They are distinctly apart from the phenomenon of crime and punishment, goodness and reward.

................

Suffering has been a great teacher, cultivating and culturing our conduct. It develops and refines sensibilities, teaches humility and in more than one way, prepares humans to be able to turn to God. It awakens the need for search and exploration and creates that necessity which is the mother of all inventions. Remove suffering as a causative factor in developing man's potential and the wheel of progress would turn back a hundred thousand times. Man may try his hand at altering the plan of things, but frustration would be all he will achieve. Thus, the question of apportioning blame for the existence of suffering upon the Creator should not arise. Suffering, to play its subtle creative role in the scheme of things, is indeed a blessing in disguise.

......

LET US EXAMINE the same question from yet another perspective: from the viewpoint of an atheist as well as from the viewpoint of a believer in God.


.............................................""

Source: "Revelation Rationality Knowledge and Truth" (online) by Fourth Ahmadiyya Muslim Khalifah (ra) @ https://www.alislam.org/library/books/revelation/part_2_section_6.html

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

I think this topic might have been discussed before. If yes then sorry to bother you with another one. This thread is from a general point of view and everyone is invited to debate. God(s)/dess(es), it seems is/are sadistic. For the sake of simplicity let me just use the word 'God'. Almost all scriptures tell us that the bad people suffer for their deeds in this life and if the good ones suffer, it is because they are tested. Does it befit a God? He is creating us either with flaws to sin or an agent provocateur named 'Satan'. Is He biding His time playing games with us? I don't even remember God asking me before I came into this world whether I wanted to be a part of this game or not?

Forgive me if I sound offensive. I didn't mean to do that. But these thoughts have been roaming around in my mind. What do you guys have to say about it?

My conclusion based on the evidence I've witnessed suggests to me God is indifferent.
ie it doesn't care one way or the other or should i say it acts without prejudice .
I don't find your thoughts offensive more like a breath of fresh air ) .

 

[ametist]

And what is wrong with that?

Nothing.