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I am Starting to Think God is Sadistic

Koldo

Outstanding Member
The self consists of many things. Memories, thoughts, desires. The self is constantly changing because these things that make up the self constantly change. The self of tomorrow is not the same self of today. What remains consistent through all of this is the observer. The observer, observes the self so it is not the self.

I would say the observer is the self as much as these many things the self is consisted of.

Brahman is not illusion, the illusion is that there is anything other then Brahman.

But once you say that, there is no choice. You have already accepted brahman. The very way that you frame the choice you made means you had no choice at all.

The "self" is illusion too. You asked what is stopping you from changing yourself. The answer is you don't want to let go of (your) self. However you can't make choices you are not aware of. You would have to become aware of Brahman to understand the choice you have and understand why you choose to remain yourself.

I was asking that from a non-dualist perspective. Therefore, my question would be: Why doesn't god/brahman ( me/us/everything ) want to let go of ( my ) self ?

Non-dualist means there is nothing separate from you. Non-dualism can't really have Gods. Maybe they speak of Gods because it is a common concept within our dualist existence people can relate to. There are no non-dualist Gods, its a contradiction.

This would mean pantheism is a contradiction. I don't agree with that position.

If you become aware of the indirect control you have you can control it right?

To a certain extent, yes. Indirect control is easily disrupted though.

Knowledge gives you direct control. The more we learn, the more we can control. So I guess the question is, what are the limits of knowledge?

What are the limits of knowledge which relates to your ability to control?

Knowledge doesn't give me direct control. Not even unrestricted control over something.

Consider for instance a man on an island. He knows how to swim, and he knows there are no other means to reach the closest civilization other than swimming through the ocean. But it just so happens that even if he trained for his whole life, he would never be enough able to perform such a feat.

This is why the traditional problem of evil only works with a god that has the power to destroy all evil. If such a god has merely the knowledge on how to destroy it, but not the means, there is no logical contradiction.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
This is why the traditional problem of evil only works with a god that has the power to destroy all evil. If such a god has merely the knowledge on how to destroy it, but not the means, there is no logical contradiction.

This is a good point. Where it gets even more complicated, as it pertains to the OP, is having the knowledge but being stuck in a state of all sorts of pleasures and suffering which takes away from having the means to do anything about it. If it is all illusory anyway then there was never any reason to be struggling with it or your just destroying yourself to what benefit.

You can't win a war fighting with your brother - Black Stone Cherry
 

Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
To me, it seems that if there were a god who was sadistic, the world would be much more cruel. If there were a god who was loving, the world would be much more kind. Thus, I am left with the possibilities that there is a god who isn't able to shape the universe, a god who doesn't care to, or that there simply isn't a god at all.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
To me, it seems that if there were a god who was sadistic, the world would be much more cruel. If there were a god who was loving, the world would be much more kind. Thus, I am left with the possibilities that there is a god who isn't able to shape the universe, a god who doesn't care to, or that there simply isn't a god at all.

Yes it does appear to be somewhere in the middle. Mainly cause we are so obsessed with the dichotomies of life and death, pain and pleasure. It is existence itself which is the important issue there. Just being should be enough in my opinion.

This body holding me reminds me of my own mortality. Embrace this moment, remember, we are eternal. All this pain is an illusion. from Tool – Parabola
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
I would say the observer is the self as much as these many things the self is consisted of.

Very easy connection to make. However you are aware of your self right? So who are you that's aware. The self has to be something separate from you for you to be aware of it.

But once you say that, there is no choice. You have already accepted brahman. The very way that you frame the choice you made means you had no choice at all.
Your are probably right. Just because I became aware of the choice doesn't mean I could have actually made a different choice then the one I made. Still I made a choice though perhaps it was the only choice possible for me to make.

I saw a really good quote... I can't remember it exactly or else I'd quote the source.

"We are free to choose according to our will but we are not free to choose our will"

I was asking that from a non-dualist perspective. Therefore, my question would be: Why doesn't god/brahman ( me/us/everything ) want to let go of ( my ) self ?
Ok, to put it in perspective of the above. Because you\we don't have the willfulness to make that choice.

This would mean pantheism is a contradiction. I don't agree with that position.
I don't think pantheism is necessarily non-dualist. Though I'd suspect certain forms of it could be.


To a certain extent, yes. Indirect control is easily disrupted though.


Knowledge doesn't give me direct control. Not even unrestricted control over something.

Consider for instance a man on an island. He knows how to swim, and he knows there are no other means to reach the closest civilization other than swimming through the ocean. But it just so happens that even if he trained for his whole life, he would never be enough able to perform such a feat.
Well if he knew how to build a boat....

This is why the traditional problem of evil only works with a god that has the power to destroy all evil. If such a god has merely the knowledge on how to destroy it, but not the means, there is no logical contradiction.
Your assumption that the only way to get to civilization is to swim means a lack of knowledge of other choices.

So lets say you become aware of other choices (knowledge) so now have the means but lack the willfulness to make the choice to return to civilization.

So "God" either lacks the knowledge or lacks the willfulness to destroy evil. Pretty simple I think.

The God presented by Christianity/Islam/Judaism has both the knowledge and the willfulness however doesn't because... :sarcastic

This concept of God makes no sense does it...

Oh... that's right, because God is sadistic... I forgot.
 
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Phil25

Active Member
Almost all scriptures tell us that the bad people suffer for their deeds in this life and if the good ones suffer, it is because they are tested. Does it befit a God?
In my religion i.e Christianity, its not like you do Good and you get Happiness and you do bad and you only get sadness. God is not under any obligation to give happiness to good people. Matthw 5:44 -45 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. See God seems impartial . We are supposed to be good because God expects us to be Good. You cannot give toys or chocolates to your kid every time they behave nicely because a kid is naturally expected to behave well. And then you might scold your child for the slightest mistake. Maybe God is justs like that.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Very easy connection to make. However you are aware of your self right? So who are you that's aware. The self has to be something separate from you for you to be aware of it.

Why?
Why can't the self be aware of itself?

Your are probably right. Just because I became aware of the choice doesn't mean I could have actually made a different choice then the one I made. Still I made a choice though perhaps it was the only choice possible for me to make.

I saw a really good quote... I can't remember it exactly or else I'd quote the source.

"We are free to choose according to our will but we are not free to choose our will"

The problem is the choice itself. Not that you couldn't choose otherwise.
When you say that you could pick between accepting brahman or continuing in illusion, you ignore that the actual choice was to frame brahman as the opposite of illusion. Once that choice was made, it just follows naturally that you would accept brahman.

Ok, to put it in perspective of the above. Because you\we don't have the willfulness to make that choice.

I am left wondering why that is the case, if that happens to be true.

Well if he knew how to build a boat....

Your assumption that the only way to get to civilization is to swim means a lack of knowledge of other choices.

Actually, in that example, it is impossible to build a boat.
The point was to illustrate a situation where even with all knowledge possible you couldn't do whatever you wanted.

So lets say you become aware of other choices (knowledge) so now have the means but lack the willfulness to make the choice to return to civilization.

So "God" either lacks the knowledge or lacks the willfulness to destroy evil. Pretty simple I think.

The God presented by Christianity/Islam/Judaism has both the knowledge and the willfulness however doesn't because... :sarcastic

This concept of God makes no sense does it...

Oh... that's right, because God is sadistic... I forgot.

The non-dualist approach is not completely devoid of issues though.
The solution it provides is similar to the arguments about the greater good, or a different definition for omnibenevolence.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
You cannot give toys or chocolates to your kid every time they behave nicely because a kid is naturally expected to behave well. And then you might scold your child for the slightest mistake. Maybe God is justs like that.

Using that analogy, god is a child abuser who maims his children eventually giving them nice and expensive gifts.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
Using that analogy, god is a child abuser who maims his children eventually giving them nice and expensive gifts.


So from your perspective, sometimes correcting or scolding and sometimes giving gifts makes one a child abuser?
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Why?
Why can't the self be aware of itself?

I knew you were going to ask.... :D

How can you really examine yourself? You can't step outside your self. What you are examining is a mental fabrication. A virtual self you've created that you believe represents yourself. I would say that is all there is to it. The self is nothing more then a fabrication. An illusion created by the hardware(the brain) and the software(the mind). Something/someone real has to exist to examine this virtual creation. However people make the mistake of identify with the self they've created.

The problem is the choice itself. Not that you couldn't choose otherwise.
When you say that you could pick between accepting brahman or continuing in illusion, you ignore that the actual choice was to frame brahman as the opposite of illusion. Once that choice was made, it just follows naturally that you would accept brahman.

Now I have to ask why? Just because you become aware that you are sleeping doesn't mean you have to choose to wake up.

I am left wondering why that is the case, if that happens to be true.

Why? In my case, because I remain "tempted by sin". In the non-dualist sense, I am the sadomasochist. Your judgement of a sad existence.

I lack the will. You lack the awareness (choice). I judge you\we ignorant, you judge me/we evil because I allow "evil" to continue to exist.

Actually, in that example, it is impossible to build a boat.
The point was to illustrate a situation where even with all knowledge possible you couldn't do whatever you wanted.

You created the limitation. That's what people do create limitations and them claim they can't be crossed. You have to be willing to test whether the limitations are real not just accept them.

The non-dualist approach is not completely devoid of issues though.
The solution it provides is similar to the arguments about the greater good, or a different definition for omnibenevolence.

omni-benevolence is dualistic. There is no good nor bad. There is nothing outside of "Brahman". I hope the Hindu's don't kill me.... I don't know of a better concept that explains it. No opposites, no opposition. No greater good, no greater evil.

I believe there is only consciousness and will. That's deductive thinking so IOW to the best of my understanding.

The self, this fabricated entity which we identify with judges good and evil. Something which is illusionary judges Brahman as evil or good. Or a sadist

Ok.... :clap, thumbs-up. What should I say?
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
I knew you were going to ask.... :D

How can you really examine yourself? You can't step outside your self. What you are examining is a mental fabrication. A virtual self you've created that you believe represents yourself. I would say that is all there is to it. The self is nothing more then a fabrication. An illusion created by the hardware(the brain) and the software(the mind). Something/someone real has to exist to examine this virtual creation. However people make the mistake of identify with the self they've created.

That's what you claim. I see no reason to accept that claim.

Now I have to ask why? Just because you become aware that you are sleeping doesn't mean you have to choose to wake up.

But you are no longer in illusion if you continue to dream, since you know the truth.

Why? In my case, because I remain "tempted by sin". In the non-dualist sense, I am the sadomasochist. Your judgement of a sad existence.

I lack the will. You lack the awareness (choice). I judge you\we ignorant, you judge me/we evil because I allow "evil" to continue to exist.

Such a sad state of affairs.
I don't even think that we are evil for doing the only thing that can grant us fulfillment. It would be like judging a drug addict as being evil for doing drugs.

You created the limitation. That's what people do create limitations and them claim they can't be crossed. You have to be willing to test whether the limitations are real not just accept them.

Do you mean limitations don't exist?
Increase your account balance by 1 billion dollars at this moment if limitations don't exist.

There is a huge grey area between the things that I know that I can do and the things that I know I can't do, that represents my uncertainty. But there are things which I am definitely sure I can't do.

omni-benevolence is dualistic. There is no good nor bad. There is nothing outside of "Brahman". I hope the Hindu's don't kill me.... I don't know of a better concept that explains it. No opposites, no opposition. No greater good, no greater evil.

I believe there is only consciousness and will. That's deductive thinking so IOW to the best of my understanding.

You see, you dissolved omnibenevolence right there, thus solving the problem.

The self, this fabricated entity which we identify with judges good and evil. Something which is illusionary judges Brahman as evil or good. Or a sadist

Ok.... :clap, thumbs-up. What should I say?

Actually, the funny part is that the self is also god. The illusion is also god.
That's god judging itself.
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
I think this topic might have been discussed before. If yes then sorry to bother you with another one. This thread is from a general point of view and everyone is invited to debate. God(s)/dess(es), it seems is/are sadistic. For the sake of simplicity let me just use the word 'God'. Almost all scriptures tell us that the bad people suffer for their deeds in this life and if the good ones suffer, it is because they are tested. Does it befit a God? He is creating us either with flaws to sin or an agent provocateur named 'Satan'. Is He biding His time playing games with us? I don't even remember God asking me before I came into this world whether I wanted to be a part of this game or not?

Forgive me if I sound offensive. I didn't mean to do that. But these thoughts have been roaming around in my mind. What do you guys have to say about it?

This post summarizes exactly how I feel some days.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
That's what you claim. I see no reason to accept that claim.

Ok, it's rather obvious to me but it did take a lot of investigation to come to that conclusion. Better if you figure it out for yourself then take someone else's word for it anyway.

But you are no longer in illusion if you continue to dream, since you know the truth.
[/quote/

It's a lot easier for humans to fool themselves into accepting an illusion as the truth then you'd think.

Such a sad state of affairs.
I don't even think that we are evil for doing the only thing that can grant us fulfillment. It would be like judging a drug addict as being evil for doing drugs.

Agreed, I don't really judge people. I do kind of, I mean you have to do some judgement, like who you can trust. But I don't judge them as good or evil.

Do you mean limitations don't exist?
Increase your account balance by 1 billion dollars at this moment if limitations don't exist.

What I mean is I don't know what the limitations are. If I had the knowledge, I could hack into a bank account.

There is a huge grey area between the things that I know that I can do and the things that I know I can't do, that represents my uncertainty. But there are things which I am definitely sure I can't do.

I've gone through life with certainty about things I couldn't accomplish. Later to find out that what actually stopped me was my certainty I couldn't do it. So I no longer believe anything with 100% certainty like I did when I was younger. Everyone wants certainty. It's not so easy to give up on.

You see, you dissolved omnibenevolence right there, thus solving the problem.

Never made sense to me, but who knows, I could be wrong.

Actually, the funny part is that the self is also god. The illusion is also god.
That's god judging itself.

Well perhaps not omnibenevolent but maybe God is omni-humorous?
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
Actually, the funny part is that the self is also god. The illusion is also god.
That's god judging itself.

It is inevitable though, that we would judge ourselves, against a higher standard, our own higher standard. We are beings judging against other beings which amounts to a struggle for power which is also inevitable. Like we can't stop ourselves from this need to exert our will, sounds like we think we are gods and think others aren't acting like it as much as they should. Don't know where these crazy ideas would come from, probably our will haha.
 

Hawkins

Well-Known Member
I think this topic might have been discussed before. If yes then sorry to bother you with another one. This thread is from a general point of view and everyone is invited to debate. God(s)/dess(es), it seems is/are sadistic. For the sake of simplicity let me just use the word 'God'. Almost all scriptures tell us that the bad people suffer for their deeds in this life and if the good ones suffer, it is because they are tested. Does it befit a God? He is creating us either with flaws to sin or an agent provocateur named 'Satan'. Is He biding His time playing games with us? I don't even remember God asking me before I came into this world whether I wanted to be a part of this game or not?

Forgive me if I sound offensive. I didn't mean to do that. But these thoughts have been roaming around in my mind. What do you guys have to say about it?

Humans don't have the intelligence to figure out God's intention. That's where the problem is. To simply put, you assume wrong to get to a wrong conclusion.

========
Or rather the first question is, is human intelligence unlimited? Or is human intelligence limited and may possibly be unable to understand God's plan/intention completely.

God's ultimate purpose is to build an eternity called heaven. He's working towards this goal. Not as you said in OP that His purpose is to reward humans on earth. Heaven is not the reward, it is the purpose He's working towards.

However, out of human arrogance, humans usually assume that today's humans are God's whole purpose and heaven becomes a less important place for the reward of men on earth.

That said, planet earth is a place outside God's realm. This is so ever since Adam was kicked out of Eden. Eden on the other hand is a godly place, not earth.

Once it is outside God's realm, earth becomes a wilderness full of wolves. It's naturally so. Any place outside God's realm is naturally a place where evil grows freely. Wolves and beasts are supposed to be everywhere. Earth is already a better place. It is so because God still has a job to do on earth. Earth is still a better place then hell because God still cares.

Now what does He care? His sheep are still among the wolves in the wilderness. That's why.

Planet earth thus is a place described as,

1) a wilderness full of wolves (including beasts like Satan), mixed together with God's lost sheep
2) a crop field of God where in the end some souls will come out as God's harvest
3) a large filter to sift out the unqualified for God a get His wheat as His products
4) a field where weeds grows with wheat. Once they can be told apart, God will get the wheat and burn the weeds

I think that if you can read the Bible more wisely, you may figure out all the answers to those questions in OP. People don't get the answers because human intelligence is the biggest issue of the arrogant humans themselves, without their own self awareness.
 
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