1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured How to prove?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Amanaki, Mar 18, 2019.

  1. ecco

    ecco Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2016
    Messages:
    7,309
    Ratings:
    +3,526
    Religion:
    atheist
    "If I sharpen this stone, it will penetrate deeper into the body of the antelope and make it easier to kill".


    I really don't understand your comment.
     
  2. ecco

    ecco Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2016
    Messages:
    7,309
    Ratings:
    +3,526
    Religion:
    atheist
    Perhaps I should have said:

    He is a spiritual person looking for a different religion/god.
     
  3. Amanaki

    Amanaki Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2018
    Messages:
    4,286
    Ratings:
    +2,266
    Religion:
    Cultivator of Buddha Dhamma
    It means that the brain is more then just a thing in the head that conver our thoughts to what we can understand.
     
  4. dfnj

    dfnj Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2017
    Messages:
    2,315
    Ratings:
    +983
    Religion:
    My Own
    It has been shown we do not live in a clockwork Universe with hard determinism. Just google "materialism debunked".

    Since the observer in the Universe alters what is being observed which has been shown to trickle up to the macro level then the only logical conclusion, given the absence of proof of materialism, the true nature of the Universe is based on some type of subjective experience. Of course, there are so many ways to experience reality subjectively we need a good heuristic to wade through the silly superstitions and pick the best superstition that fits the data points we know to exist.

    The problem with the scientific materialists is they do not believe they have a dogma. They believe the axioms and assumptions making up their dogma are absolute truths that cannot be question.

    To answer your question the best way is to lead by example. If spirituality is all that it is cracked up to be then people who have a strong enthusiasm will draw other people to their way of thinking by example.

    "Proven" is the wrong word. You cannot prove a dogma's axioms or assumptions as being true. A dogma's axioms and assumptions are accepted as being true without any proof. That is what makes them assumptions. Axioms and assumptions are choices not decisions based on proof. Once a dogma's assumptions have been established, only then can assertions be proven true or false.
     
  5. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2017
    Messages:
    13,945
    Ratings:
    +9,645
    Religion:
    None
    Fmri detects brain activity through changes in blood flow
    A pet scan detects through measuring sugar levels.

    Both work
     
  6. Falvlun

    Falvlun Earthbending Lemur
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2008
    Messages:
    12,516
    Ratings:
    +2,311
    :D Sorry!

    I meant in regards to a “spiritual experience” — assuming that “spiritual experiences” happen sans religions.

    How would a person within a culture without the concept of any religion describe a spiritual experience? Mostly just thinking out loud.
     
  7. Windwalker

    Windwalker Integralist
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2013
    Messages:
    7,995
    Ratings:
    +3,977
    Religion:
    Love, Light, and Life
    To what end?

    Can you prove the taste of an orange? If someone is intrigued by your description, then they may wish to try tasting an orange themselves. But without tasting it, there is no proof of its taste possible.

    The spiritual is something that is either attractive to someone, or it doesn't garner their attention. That's their path. Like the old saying, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. The only proof of the spiritual is actual experience. Not a theory about oranges. ;)
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

    Joined:
    May 1, 2017
    Messages:
    2,510
    Ratings:
    +999
    Religion:
    No Religion. I Sense The Higher Power.
    If created, then a creative realm is probable to exist.

    The experience of being alive does not fit the box its in.

    Subjective introspection without preconclusions.

    Non locality exists. Where's the bridge between the particles? Instant effect. Perhaps an omnipresent force. Definetly not a wormhole.

    Qualities of being exist that are non physical concepts, such as love, loyalty, reason, memory, peace, joy.

    Flip a coin!
     
  9. Amanaki

    Amanaki Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2018
    Messages:
    4,286
    Ratings:
    +2,266
    Religion:
    Cultivator of Buddha Dhamma
    I am glad you asked me this questions :)

    You can not prove a spiritual life, that is why i asked the questions How to prove to someone who does not belive. There is no need to prove it, because the path is personal, it is for you and you only. meaning that when you are on the path it does not matter what thers say or belive, because you are the one who must enlighten to the truth. No matter how much we try to convince the non beliver they will not belive it.
    It is not wrong to not belive, and it is not wrong to belive. the answer is. It is what it is.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. ManSinha

    ManSinha Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2019
    Messages:
    822
    Ratings:
    +501
    Religion:
    Sikh
    No arguments on that :)
     
  11. Windwalker

    Windwalker Integralist
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2013
    Messages:
    7,995
    Ratings:
    +3,977
    Religion:
    Love, Light, and Life
    Yes, and in reality, it's all a spiritual path, whether one is actively tasting of it or not seeing it. All of life and living is spiritual.

    There is a saying I heard that goes, 'We see ourselves as humans on a spiritual journey, but rather we are Spirit on a human journey.' That understanding allows us to see others with compassion, and not judgement. They are on their path to their own eventual Awakening. They are Spirit in that person.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
  12. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2017
    Messages:
    11,373
    Ratings:
    +10,804
    Religion:
    Non-theist
    This is strange to me. The taste of an orange is neither true nor false. Even to say it tastes good or bad isn't a matter of truth or falsity, although at least those can be opinions.

    So I don't see anything to 'prove' about the taste of an orange.

    If the goal is to have experiences, then the goal is not truth. That's OK. I like to have experiences also. They are just different from truths. Now, truths can be based on experience through interpretation, hypothesis formation, and testing. Beliefs are also the result of experiences, although usually with far fewer controls and much more subjective than truths.

    It just seems strange to me to identify an experience, in and of itself, as having a truth value. The *interpretation* of the experience may well have a truth value (if it goes beyond opinion).

    So, I may interpret the wild feeling I get in some circumstances as 'being touched by the Flying Spaghetti Monster'. Whether that interpretation is correct or not depends on whether FSM exists and whether I was, in fact, touched by that being.

    But, even if I don't interpret the experience correctly, I still had an experience.
     
  13. SalixIncendium

    SalixIncendium सच्चितानन्द
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2016
    Messages:
    6,279
    Ratings:
    +6,919
    Religion:
    Advaitist Hindu
    I never felt the need to prove anything experiential to anyone. If it was meant to be proven to them, they would have experienced it themselves. :)
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. SalixIncendium

    SalixIncendium सच्चितानन्द
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2016
    Messages:
    6,279
    Ratings:
    +6,919
    Religion:
    Advaitist Hindu
    Interesting.

    How do I go about demonstrating to others that I like the taste of honeydew melon better than cantaloupe?
     
  15. Deidre

    Deidre اتبع القلب

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2014
    Messages:
    6,576
    Ratings:
    +5,056
    Religion:
    Spiritual Christian
    I think it is something that one needs to experience. I was raised on belief alone, with a lot of church rituals and traditions. That didn't make me feel anything, though. i think that faith/spirituality is something that when felt, can't be mistaken for something else.
     
  16. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2007
    Messages:
    54,188
    Ratings:
    +12,969
    Religion:
    None (atheist)
    Aesthetic preferences are a fair bit removed from what the OP is talking about: demonstrating that "realms" exist.
     
  17. SalixIncendium

    SalixIncendium सच्चितानन्द
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2016
    Messages:
    6,279
    Ratings:
    +6,919
    Religion:
    Advaitist Hindu
    Granted, a fair bit removed, but still quite relevant.
     
  18. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2007
    Messages:
    54,188
    Ratings:
    +12,969
    Religion:
    None (atheist)
    Is it?

    Edit:

    To expand - the OP is about demonstrating something that's given as part of an external reality. Maybe hard to detect, but still existing objectively.

    OTOH, you're talking about objectively confirming what's entirely subjective... so a very different kettle of fish.
     
    #78 9-10ths_Penguin, Mar 18, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2019
  19. SalixIncendium

    SalixIncendium सच्चितानन्द
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2016
    Messages:
    6,279
    Ratings:
    +6,919
    Religion:
    Advaitist Hindu
    Can you demonstrate the experience of taste preference any more than I can demonstrate an experience of God? If not, then yes, it's relevant.
     
  20. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2017
    Messages:
    11,373
    Ratings:
    +10,804
    Religion:
    Non-theist
    Sometimes I think I lack some sort of 'spirituality gene'. I can get a feeling of 'oneness' when looking at stars or a sense of peace when visiting a Buddhist shrine or even some relaxation and centering from meditation. But I fail to see how any one those lead to 'truths' as opposed to a few pleasant experiences.

    If the experience of eating an orange is analogous to a religious experience, I fail to see why not just enjoy the experience as opposed to thinking it reveals some deeper truth about the universe.
     
Loading...