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Featured How to End Poverty

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by rrobs, May 19, 2018.

  1. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    ....continued from previous post.
     
    #41 Brickjectivity, May 20, 2018
    Last edited: May 21, 2018
  2. rrobs

    rrobs Well-Known Member

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    Yes! It's nice to meet someone that understands that every book in the Bible is not written to them. Making that mistake causes all sorts of problems when rightly dividing the word of truth. Although it is not written to us, we can nonetheless learn from the things God told Israel (Rom 15:4).

    I guess I should have used a verse that is written to the born again believer in this age of grace.

    Phil 4:19,
    But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus.
    Having all of one's needs met certainly implies no poverty. That is in complete harmony with Deut 15:4-5.
     
  3. Milton Platt

    Milton Platt Well-Known Member

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    The only things that are "needs" to live is air, water and food. Everything else is a luxury.
     
  4. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    The Bible says many things and I’m definitely limited in my understanding as well and don’t pretend to know it all. But I think if we are humble like Jesus was when He washed the feet of His disciples and are willing to learn we can always change our understanding if we find it to be wrong and by doing that gain a greater understanding.

    Jesus commanded us to focus on love and it’s so easy to get distracted and fall into the ego trap of trying to win arguments at all costs with love being the victim.

    I try my best to be detached from ‘winning’ and focus on love as this is what the Lord wanted us to do.

    Everything the Bible states is true and I agree with it although we may understand it and interpret it differently we basically agree that it is the Word of God and that to love God and one another is what Jesus asked us to do.
     
  5. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    The Easy-to-Read Version (for a clear understanding)

    Deuteronomy 15:4-5
    4 There should not be any poor people in your country, because the Lord your God is giving you this land. And the Lord will greatly bless you. 5 But this will happen only if you obey the Lord your God. You must be careful to obey every command that I have told you today.​

    From what I've read, these people are specifically the Israelites, and no one else, so obviously one can't assume god's action here applies to anyone else.

    Yes, but so what?

    Then why have you bothered to post it?

    .
     
  6. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Thank you for taking the time to respond so nicely. Its a pleasure talking to someone who knows their Bible. [​IMG]

    More questions....sorry. This is too long again, so I'll break it up. The Bible is my favorite subject. [​IMG]

    What do you understand the title "Logos" to mean, and what do you think the role of the "Logos" was before the creation of man?
    And what do you understand about the phrase "in the beginning" used there in John 1:1? If God is eternal, then he had no beginning. What "beginning" do you think John meant?

    I like the way that Paul puts it...."In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory." (Ephesians 1:13-14 NASB)

    also Romans 8:16..."The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God".

    When Jesus said...."In the house of my Father are many dwelling places. Otherwise, I would have told you, for I am going my way to prepare a place for you. 3 Also, if I go my way and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will receive you home to myself, so that where I am you also may be." (John14:2-3)

    Where was Jesus going? And where is the house of his Father?

    Now, apparently all of the first Christians were "sealed" with this "pledge" by God's spirit to an inheritance....i.e. being with Christ in his kingdom. Do you see Revelation 20:6 as applying to these ones? It says that they are part of "the first resurrection" and that they will rule with Christ and be priests with him as well. Who do you believe Christ and these co-rulers will reign over and interceded for as priests? This anointing with holy spirit was not given until after Christ instituted the new covenant with his disciples. Where do you think all the pre-Christian servants of God are?

    That is an interesting way to view it. I see it a little differently....as mortals with access to the "tree of life" they would have 'lived happily ever after' if they had just obeyed that one simple command. It was physical life that they were given on a material planet in a material universe....and it was physical life that was taken from them as a penalty.
    I believe that the "spirit" is the breath in living things that keeps humans and animals alive. Just as Adam was a lifeless corpse until God started him breathing...."the breath of life" was quite literally the "spirit of life".....only God can give spirit and once it is gone, only he can restore it. (Psalm 146:4)
    So to my way of thinking, the body + spirit = a soul.

    The soul is the whole person with everything that makes them unique. As a soul, Adam could have gone on living indefinitely with all the provisions that God had generously made available for human souls to enjoy. If animals have the same spirit, there is no mention of them partaking of the tree of life, nor is there any promise of life everlasting for them. So to me the spirit is the breath. When Jesus resurrected Lazarus, he returned Lazarus' spirit or started him breathing again after he had repaired his mortal body. (after 4 days in middle eastern heat decomposition would have set in, as his sister said.) Perhaps we can talk about 'resurrection' later?

    So the 'chosen ones' whom Paul said had "the heavenly calling" (Hebrews 3:1) will rule with Christ in heaven, having been given a new body that can exist in that realm...a realm that some humans have only had glimpses of in visions.

    How do you understand this expression "new heaven and new earth"? Is the Bible speaking literally or metaphorically?
     
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  7. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    How do you see the prophesies in Daniel tying in with that thought? (Daniel 2:44) Who are his subjects? and where are they?

    Revelation 20:6 speaks of Christ's reign as lasting 1,000 years, and in verses 1-3 it speaks about the devil and his hordes being confined in a deep dark prison for the entire period.
    Since Isaiah says that God's word 'will not return to him without results', Paul tells us that after the kingdom has accomplished its mission to return redeemed humans back to a personal relationship with their Creator (like Adam had at first) he hands the reigns back to his God and Father to resume the role he had in the very beginning. (1 Corinthians 15:22-28)

    I think it is good to realize that if humans had not sinned, Christ would never have come in the role of Messiah and God would have ruled humanity directly from the get go.

    And yet, "the flesh" was originally designed to live forever. When God finished creating the humans he declared everything "very good", so it isn't the flesh that is useless. When Adam sinned, he passed sinful inclinations and physical and spiritual imperfections onto his children, (Romans 5:12) so that, like the pre-flood conditions, "all flesh has ruined its way" because of sin. It is this 'ruined flesh' that God will mend by means of Christ's sacrifice and the rulership of his kingdom.

    In order to act as priests, Christ's co-rulers will have to have sinful humans for whom to perform their duties. Those of the "heavenly calling" have already proven faithful unto death, so they are rewarded with immortal spirit life in heaven. As Kings, they will not rule one another, and as priests they will not need the services of one another now that their imperfect flesh is no more. Who are their subjects?

    I agree. Once we have accepted Jesus as the Christ and give our undivided worship to the Father the way Jesus did, (Luke 4:8) then fighting sinful inclinations becomes much easier. God's will becomes our will too...but that doesn't mean we stop being open to temptation. The devil even tempted Jesus who, although he was perfect, was a free willed being too...just like the devil and the first humans. Free will is like medicine, best in recommended doses, but can be deadly if you fail to follow the instructions with the prescription. [​IMG]

    I alluded to this above. I'm glad you brought up 1 Thessalonians 4 because this ties in nicely with the whole point of our discussion.

    In context with the other verses (15-17) it says....
    "But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep.......For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord."

    What is this talking about? Obviously it is about the judgment time. When Jesus "comes", those with the 'heavenly calling' who have died, (the dead in Christ) will be raised to life in "the first resurrection". They all sleep in death until that time. Those who have not died will be transformed in order to be "caught up" together with the resurrected ones, so that the "bride of Christ" will finally be complete and the "marriage of the Lamb" can take place.

    Revelation 21:2-4 is really the fulfillment of 1 Thessalonians 4. Jesus and his "bride" are seen bringing the rulership of "New Jerusalem" (no longer an earthly city in a geographical location) to the whole earth....now cleansed of all wickedness and with no satan to mess anything up. The rulership of redeemed mankind in those thousand years will restore everything Adam lost for us. That is a truly wonderful prospect....but to me it means that only those "chosen" by God for rulership in heaven will experience that....but many, many more will benefit.

    Because there is a first resurrection...there must also be another to follow. (John 5:28-29)

    You answered very well. Hope I am not overtaxing you.

    Thanks again.
     
    #47 Deeje, May 20, 2018
    Last edited: May 20, 2018
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  8. sayak83

    sayak83 Well-Known Member
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    Life has experiential value to the one who is enjoying it, be it a human or a fish. That is what makes life here, now, at this very moment valuable.... not some future heaven or Valhalla. This intrinsic value of experiencing life moments is available to all beings regardless of metaphysics. True poverty is the absence or deprivation of this experiential joy of living, and that malaise is more of a psychological and ideologically induced blindness rather than material deprivation for us humans.

    I don't think you understand the nature of life and death at all, I am afraid.
     
  9. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Thanks for posting that Brick...very interesting....
     
  10. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    Woops that was supposed to be part of my post just before it. Now its at the top of the page and looks like it breaks rule 7, so I am adding some explanation. There now its ruly.
     
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  11. rrobs

    rrobs Well-Known Member

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    Sounds like something Victor Maslov said. He was a pretty smart guy, but not as smart as God.

    How about this one?

    3John 1:2,
    Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.​
     
  12. rrobs

    rrobs Well-Known Member

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    So then you understand the ten commandments were for Israel and do not apply to Christians in the age of grace. That's great. Most churches use the ten commandments as the criterion for entering paradise instead of the redemptive power of Jesus Christ. Still, we can certainly learn from the things in the OT (Rom 15:4) even though they don't apply directly to us.

    Nobody in Israel was a born again son of God by seed. That didn't become available until the Day of Pentecost. Seems like God would do at least as much for those who are born again of incorruptible seed as He did for His servant Israel.


    So what what?



    I had some extra time on my hands. Plus God tells us to hold forth His Word (1 Tim 2:4). Nothing nefarious.
     
  13. rrobs

    rrobs Well-Known Member

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    I wish I lived it as much as I know it, or at least as much as I think I know it. I do my best though. Still, I see so many other Christians who probably know less and yet live a life that shows forth their believing in God. I'm just happy with what God made me in Christ Jesus.

    My favorite subject too!

    The simple meaning of logos is "word." However it really means the thought and intent that are behind the words. In the context of John 1:1, I take logos to mean a plan. Of course that plan is the plan of redemption. God knew Adam would sin so He came up with a plan to fix the problem. Jesus of course was central to that plan, but the greatness of God's wisdom in the plan is largely lost if we take Jesus to be the logos. John 1:14 says that the plan became flesh when Jesus was born. That doesn't mean the plan was Jesus all along though. The logos was in God's mind, but it wasn't manifested or become a reality until the birth of Jesus.

    God had to work with man's free will. He could have come down right after Adam disobeyed and made all right again, but that would overstep free will. Since death came by man, so would our redemption come from a man just like the rest of us with free will. Jesus could have sinned at any point, but he didn't. Jesus chose to obey where Adam did not. They way God brought it all about is beyond my comprehension, but I'm glad He did.

    Anyway, basically, I believe the the logos of John 1:1 is speaking of that plan in God's mind.

    I take it to be the beginning of the creation in Gen 1:1. When God made man, He knew in His foreknowledge that Adam would blow it, so He made a way out via the work of His only begotten son.

    I never thought about that, so I certainly haven't looked at it. One of these days I will. It's a good question. Do you have any input?
    I don't see Revelations as having anything to do with Christians. God made promises to Israel that if they would obey He would give them an everlasting kingdom. They failed miserable, as would any of us. When the king came they had him killed. The promises God made to Israel were therefore left unfulfilled.

    God put His plan for Israel on hold for a while. In the meantime, He revealed the mystery that the Gentiles would be fellow heirs with Israel (unheard of in the OT) and that salvation was by grace instead of the law. The law could never make anyone perfect, but grace did the job. At some point Jesus will appear again and gather born agian believers to him in the air. At that point God will pick up where He left off with Israel. That is the book of Revelations. God will fulfill all the OT promises by the end of Revelations. We will have been gathered together and we will be with Christ during the whole period. We are saved from the wrath to come.

    I believe that one can read from the end of John's gospel and go right to the beginning of Revelations to get the continuity of God's dealing with Israel. Acts to Jude deals with born again Christians and can be thought of as an aside in God's plan. And a fantastic aside it is! 1 Peter 1:11 speaks of the OT prophets who couldn't figure out the time period between Jesus' sufferings and his glory. God called it the mystery that was hidden in Himself alone. He gave the revelation of that mystery to the Apostle Paul.

    Yes, Adam would have lived forever. That is why God kicked him out of the garden. Had he eaten from that tree after having eaten from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, he would still have lived forever but in a fallen state. A Christian must die a physical death before getting our new body.

    I take it literally. If it's a metaphor then what is it a metaphor of?

    I know I didn't cite many verses here, but I think you know the ones I'm talking about. If not and you are interested, let me know.
     
    #53 rrobs, May 21, 2018
    Last edited: May 21, 2018
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  14. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Isn't that all that God asks of us? [​IMG]

    When we read Paul's letter to the Colossians where he says in Ch 1:15-17...."He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
    15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together."


    What do you see as the first of God's creations? Do we not see the son here as "the firstborn of all creation"? Isn't he the 'agency' through which God created everything else? That includes things in heaven....so the first creation is other intelligent "sons" in the heavenly realm....angels....not man.

    The root meaning of "logos" is "word"....but it can also mean that in the sense of one who acts as a spokesman for someone in authority. That puts Jesus in the role of a representative. (John 7:16-17; John 12:50; John 18:37) That means that in Genesis 1:26 God is consulting with his beloved son in the creation of man. (Proverbs 8:30-31)

    The pre-human Jesus was not a "plan" but a divine entity, "begotten" by his Father. If God had many "sons", why is Jesus called an "only-begotten"? The word in Greek is "monogenes" and it means an "only child" in any sense of the word. How is Jesus an "only child" when he existed before his angelic 'brothers'?

    I believe that it is because he is the only 'direct creation' of his Father. All other creation was brought about through the son, as John 1:2-3 confirms. Revelation 3:14 calls Jesus..."the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation."

    This means that Jesus is divine.....but a created being.

    Yes, the sin of the first Adam was atoned for by the sacrifice of "the last Adam". A perfect human life was offered in exchange for the perfect human life that Adam lost for his children. (1 Corinthians 15:22; 45) Jesus' sacrifice is called a "ransom" because it was the price specified to release the human captives of sin and death.

    God's laws are so perfect that he abides by them himself. Equivalency was demanded in the Law...'like for like' to satisfy justice...."eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, life for a life."

    How unselfish of Jesus to volunteer for that difficult mission as God's most trusted servant. (Acts 3:13)
    How magnanimous of God to send his most beloved son to suffer and die for us. (John 3:16)


    In order not to preempt their freedom of choice, God will only react in accordance with the actions of his free willed creatures. This whole scenario involves all of God's children, both humans and angels. In order to retain the precious gift of free will, God had to allow all of his children to choose to obey him out of love....not force them to obey him out of fear. (which is the road that the churches took) Keeping their flocks in ignorance and fear kept them in line, but taught them nothing about the wise exercise of free will. Nor did it teach them about God's love.

    I don't believe that God chooses to know everything just because he can. I think that God always has Plan B up his sleeve and can cover all eventualities, and that once his creative efforts were concluded, he stood back and allowed things to play out naturally, only intervening when his purpose was threatened (such as the intervention of rebel sons of God in the days of Noah) He wiped the slate clean and started again. He allows his children enough freedom to make decisions and to experience the natural consequences of them. I believe that we are living an object lesson that will see faithful ones through the rest of eternity without making the same mistakes again. We learn so much more by experience than by words, as Adam and his wife demonstrated. :(

    If there was never supposed to be anyone but God ruling us, there would never have been a need for the Kingdom and Christ's rulership. That means no human was ever going to heaven if Plan A had gone ahead. If humans had never sinned, then Jesus' role would have been completely different. I believe that he would have remained in the role of the Logos. (God's right hand man)

    As of now, he is still the "mediator" or the go-between" for us with God. But at the end of his 1,000 year reign, he will hand the perfected, sinless human race back to his Father and all will proceed as if none of this ever happened......but the exercise means that it can never happen again. Its actually brilliant! [​IMG]
     
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  15. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    I don't believe that they were. God's initial promise to Abraham was that 'all the nations would be blessed by means of a seed' that would come from his bloodline. God accomplished that in Jesus Christ. He kept that wayward nation in existence until that purpose was fulfilled. But Jesus said that they had done their dash, treating him in the same way as they had all of God's representatives before him....he said....
    "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing! 38 See, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’” (Matthew 23:37-39)

    As serial covenant breakers, God is no longer obligated to keep them as his people. God fulfilled his end of the bargain...they failed miserably to keep theirs. Only individuals out of that nation who "bless the one who came in the name of the Lord" would see Jesus as their Messiah. The fact that Jesus was sent only to "the lost sheep" indicates that the nation as a whole was incorrigible....too set in their ways and traditions to be corrected.

    This brings us to the question....What makes someone a "Jew" in God's eyes?

    Paul wrote..."For circumcision indeed is of value if you obey the law, but if you break the law, your circumcision becomes uncircumcision. 26 So, if a man who is uncircumcised keeps the precepts of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 Then he who is physically uncircumcised but keeps the law will condemn you who have the written codec and circumcision but break the law. 28 For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God." (Romans 2:25-29)

    John the Baptist also alluded to this question of what it means to be "Jewish" in God's eyes.....
    "And do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father,’ for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham. 10 Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees. Every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire." (Matthew 3:9-10)

    At Galatians 6:15-16 Paul identified who the "Israel of God" really were....." For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. And as for all who walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God." Paul was addressing Christians who were both Jewish and Gentiles.

    I believe that "Israel" in Revelation is the same as the ones Paul addressed. It is a spiritual nation of Christians.
    The fleshly nation of Israel today is a political one...not a spiritual nation at all. She has no "peace and mercy from God" because her hands are filled with bloodshed just like all the rest. She does not appear to be blessed by God in any way. (Isaiah 1:15)

    I believe that there is no "aside". I believe that the covenant is still in force, simply by God changing the definition of what it meant to be "Jewish" in his eyes.

    The "mystery" or "secret" that both Jesus and Paul spoke of, was about the Kingdom and the spiritual nature of it.....it was also about the Jewish expectation of their Messiah who came with spiritual liberation, but they were seeking physical liberation from the Roman yoke. They had been misled into believing something that wasn't true, therefore Jesus looked like a phony to them. He still does.

    Mark 4:11..."And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables".

    Romans 16:25..."Now to him who is able to strengthen you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery that was kept secret for long ages".

    I actually take it metaphorically for the simple reason that there is nothing wrong with the planet or the Universe.

    A 'new earth' was created after the flood, but the planet remained in tact. It was a new start on a cleansed earth, washed clean of all wickedness. The apostle Peter, in speaking about the time of the flood, said..."For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, 6 and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. 7 But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly." (2 Peter 3:5-7)

    Just as the flood meant the end of all ungodliness back then, so the coming judgment means the same. Fire is also a purifier, demonstrated in the just exercise of God's anger.

    That is how I see it....sorry if these replies turn into novels.....[​IMG] I can't help myself.....
     
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  16. rrobs

    rrobs Well-Known Member

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    I only have time to address this for now, but I think it is key to many of the other things we spoke about.

    God gave the Apostle a Gospel. It is a gospel of grace. It wasn't given to Moses, Joshua, David, Solomon, or even to Jesus. It was Paul's gospel.

    Rom 2:16,
    In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my [Paul's] gospel.​

    2Tim 2:8,
    Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my [Paul's] gospel:​

    This gospel was not known until revealed to Paul. Prior to that time, only God knew about it.

    1Cor 2:6-8,
    6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
    7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
    8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.​

    Verse 8 is especially notable. The word mystery in v7 and the rest of the verses I will quote here could have been better translated as secret. A mystery implies we can't understand it, but God made it clear to the Apostle Paul what this secret is, so it is no longer a secret and it is certainly not a mystery. We know it.

    Verse 8 says the devil would not have crucified Jesus had he known about this secret. That's interesting! Why!

    Col 1:25-27,
    25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
    26 [Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
    27 To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:​

    First of all, notice that this mystery, secret, was hidden until "now" which means until it was revealed to Paul. There is never any indication that Jesus even knew about it. He said several times that he came for Israel. He made exceptions to help a few who were not Israelites, but he understood his mission to be one of giving Israel a chance to repent after which he would have set up the kingdom. In any case, these verses are clear that only God knew it before this age of grace, after the Day of Pentecost.

    But I digress. The question at hand is why the devil would not have killed Jesus had he known the mystery. Col 1:27 gives the answer. When Jesus was here there was one Jesus. The devil only had that one Jesus to contend with. But now that we know that Christ dwells withing each and every born again believer, the devil has countless Jesus' to contend with. Wherever there is a believer, there is Christ. When you walk into the grocery store, Christ walks into that store. What a fantastic truth!

    There is more in Paul's epistles about this mystery God revealed to him. Just look up mystery in a concordance. One thing that is clear though is that the secret God revealed to Paul is distinctly different than anything Jesus ever spoke about. Without an understanding of this it is difficult to appreciate the plan, the logos, of redemption to the fullest.

    I'll address one more point before I go.

    I can have a oak tree seed in my possession. Would it be correct to say I have an oak tree? I don't see how. At some point I may plant that seed and a few years later it would become an oak tree. At that point I could say I owned and oak tree. But, before it became an actual tree, it was a seed and not a tree. That is logic and language.

    John 1:14,
    And the Word [logos] was made [Greek ginomai, to become] flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
    Jesus was not sitting together with God when He created the universe. The logos was, but until it become flesh it was not flesh. That fits with the many clear verses [around 500] that says Jesus was the son of God and not one says he was God the son. If Jesus is mistaken as being God, the two main characters of the logos are mixed up in such a way that the brilliance of the logos is somewhat unclear. But that is a good description of what orthodox church doctrine have done to God's word.

    Imagine someone reading the newspaper who was convinced that Trump, Putin, and Kim Un were actually one and the same person. This might be in the headlines;

    "Trump blasts Putin for giving aid to Kim Un"​

    That is pretty easy to understand. But the "political trinitarian" would read it as follows;

    "Trump blasts Trump for giving aid to Trump"
    What?????????????

    It would be hard to get to the truth of the matter when read like that. The Bible is no different.
     
    #56 rrobs, May 22, 2018
    Last edited: May 22, 2018
  17. rrobs

    rrobs Well-Known Member

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    I understand you don't believe the Bible and I don't mean to beat it into anybody. I will simply repeat what it says and let the reader draw their own conclusion.

    This life can be enjoyed to the max.

    John 10:10,
    The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have [it] more abundantly.
    So it can be a pretty good life. Nonetheless it is clearly not eternal. Just go to a graveyard to see that. The folks in the graves are pretty dead.

    Jas 4:14,
    ...For what [is] your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.
    Again, I'm not trying to convince you or anyone else. The words are simple to understand. They are either believed or not. So what comes next? That would be the book of Revelations.

    Rev 21:1,
    And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
    Rev 21:4,
    And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
    Not such a bad thing to look forward to.
    What is your understanding of life and death? It would be best if you could give references from whatever sacred source you use. I'm interested to see what other religions believe. Thanks in advance.
     
    #57 rrobs, May 22, 2018
    Last edited: May 22, 2018
  18. rrobs

    rrobs Well-Known Member

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    The word image is the Greek word eikon from which we get our word icon. An image of something is, by definition, not the thing itself.

    This word eikon is also found in Matthew.

    Matt 22:19-21,
    19 Shew me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny.
    20 And he saith unto them, Whose [is] this image [eikon] and superscription?
    21 They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.
    It would the height of ridiculousness to say Caeser was imprinted on the coin. His image and he himself are clearly not the same. Ditto with regards to to Colossians 1:15. The rest of that section must fit with the clear declaration that Jesus was image of God and not God himself. Otherwise we have a glaring contradiction in the Bible and that can't be!
     
  19. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Thank you again for your response. I must admit, I have never heard of this angle before, so of course it sent me on a research mission. I love a challenge, especially a Biblical one. ;)

    First of all I had to reassure myself of the meaning of the word "gospel"...."euaggelion" meaning "good tidings" or "good news".

    Second, I had to see the way "gospel" is used in other verses of the scriptures.
    From Strongs... https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G2098&t=NASB

    It is apparent from these other verses that there is only one "gospel", which involves Christ and the Kingdom of God. I do not see any verse that tells me that what Paul preached was anything different to what the other apostles preached, all being partakers of the same holy spirit that was poured out at Pentecost. The 12 foundation stones of the spiritual arrangement in heavenly Jerusalem, are the 12 apostles...(Revelation 21:14) Paul is not among them. So whilst I see Paul's role as special (in that his skills, education, standing and zeal were redirected by his encounter with Jesus. Acts 22:3) I see Paul as he saw himself...as an apostle sent to the nations. (Acts 26:17; Ephesians 3:8) Interestingly, it was Peter who kicked off preaching to Gentiles with the conversion of Cornelius.

    The opening words of his letter to the Romans, Paul says...
    "Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, 2 which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy Scriptures, 3 concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh 4 and was declared to be the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord, 5 through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of his name among all the nations, 6 including you who are called to belong to Jesus Christ,
    7 To all those in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints:
    Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ." (ESV)


    Do you see anything there that makes Paul's gospel somehow unique, or in any way different from that of the 12? Why would God reveal things to Paul and not the 12? All had the same holy spirit.

    What is interesting about Paul as an apostle, is the fact that he was not educated by the other apostles, but by Jesus himself, as the others were. That way no one could accuse Paul of receiving his information second hand.
    When he taught in harmony with the other apostles, it was proof that God's spirit was directing him, and not that he was preaching his own ideas.

    The "sacred secret" was unfolding but not just by Paul. The holy spirit was directing all gospel preachers to spread the "good news" "to the most distant part of the earth". The thing that was revealed in connection with that Kingdom was its spiritual nature, when Jews had always believed that it would be physically established on earth. Even as Jesus was ascending to heaven, the apostles asked...."Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” (Acts 1:6)

    He told them to wait for the "holy spirit", and the spirit revealed to them what had been hidden all along....that their destination was in heaven where Jesus had gone 'to prepare a place for them'. This heavenly kingdom of which they were now a part, was to rule over earthly subjects, undoing all the pain and suffering that the devil's rulership has brought upon mankind. (Revelation 21:2-4)

    That is how I see things. It makes no sense to me that God would reveal things to Paul that even Jesus wouldn't know. :shrug: Though he did say that he had many things to teach them that they were not able to "bear" (or perhaps process) until the enlightenment they received opened their minds and hearts, instilling a strong desire to be with their Lord in heaven.

    'The light on the path gets brighter as the day dawns'....(Proverbs 4:18) Even now, we see clearer and clearer how things are nearing the end for this wicked world. We just have to keep preaching :) ...(Matthew 24:14)
     
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  20. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    I think we are talking past one another here.....I am not a trinitarian. An image is only a reflection of the real thing.
    I am sorry if I did not make that clear.

    Jesus always deferred to his God and Father as his superior. Worship was to be given only to him as "the Most High over all the earth" (Psalm 83:18) :)

    Even in heaven, the Father is the "God" of Jesus. (Revelation 3:12)
     
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