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Featured How to End Poverty

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by rrobs, May 19, 2018.

  1. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    It is an interesting subject to study, the four horsemen of the apocalypse. Why? Because the ride of Jesus comes first. The others follow in quick succession. These horsemen are the fulfillment of Matthew 24....the sign of Jesus "presence" (parousia) as he is now ruling as King. It is not an event seen by us but felt in the events triggered by the ride of these symbolic horesmen.

    The prophet Daniel saw in vision the enthronement of God's king but it was not seen by any human. (Daniel 7:13-14)

    It is our belief that Christ has been ruling since the "last days" of this world began in 1914 with the WW1.

    We also believe that this is when that commanding call was issued for the "dead in Christ" to "rise first".
    Among Jehovah's people, there are very few of the anointed 144,000 left on the earth, the majority already having received their resurrection and their place in the heavenly Kingdom. Jesus prepared a place for them, and he came at that time to call them "home". When it comes time for the final judgment, Jesus will bring all his anointed ones with him and then collect the remaining ones still alive on earth and the "marriage" of the Lamb to his bride will be complete. Then he and his angelic forces will deal with the devil and all those who followed his lead.

    You are aware of why you were asked about the comma. There were no capital letters or punctuation in the Greek. Any and all such are placed there by the translators. So using commas to determine anything is rather futile unless the truth is gleaned from other scripture.
    e.g. Luke 23:42-43....

    KJV..."And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
    43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."


    NASB..." And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!” 43 And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”


    ESV..."And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” 43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.


    You see the placement of the comma? What is Jesus telling this evildoer who was hung alongside of him?
    Is he telling him that he will be in heaven with Jesus that day? The placement of the comma suggests that but this is not backed up by the rest of the Bible. Jesus was in his tomb for three days after his execution. He was not resurrected or "made alive" till then....(Matthew 12:40)...so the evildoer would not have been anywhere with Jesus that day. In fact Jesus never mentioned heaven...he said "paradise". This man was not a Christian who had 'stuck with Jesus in his trials' and being rewarded for his faith....he was a criminal deserving of death and Jesus promise was about his future resurrection of the "righteous and the unrighteous" (John 5:28-29) under God's kingdom in paradise on earth.

    The NWT renders it this way...."Then he said: “Jesus, remember me when you get into your Kingdom.” 43 And he said to him: “Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in Paradise.”

    The placement of the comma puts Jesus statement in harmony with what the whole Bible teaches about the Kingdom and what it will accomplish on earth. (Matthew 6:9-10)

    I agree that Jesus did not know the full picture whilst in the flesh at that time, but I do believe that he would have been fully informed of all things on his return to his Father.

    Absolutely! As a young child of 12 he was in the Temple questioning the teachers and they were amazed at his understanding. He was perfect after all. But he also had the holy spirit guiding everything he did.

    Yes, it can get confusing but we have had extensive studies on these things. You might find this useful....
    Heaven — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

    Sorry about the length of this again but there is so much to discuss. [​IMG]
     
    #101 Deeje, May 28, 2018
    Last edited: May 29, 2018
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  2. rrobs

    rrobs Well-Known Member

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    Failing to understand that this age of grace was kept secret until revealed to Paul has caused no end of confusion. We are currently in that period that the prophets of old could not understand (1 Peter 1:11). Nothing that has happened from the day of Pentecost until the present was spoken of in the OT, including the Gospels.

    Jesus came for Israel to fulfill promises God made to them. They rejected him. God did not give up on them. There is plenty of scripture that says God will gather them together again and put a new heart in them, etc. Jesus will appear again to do that for them. That is in Daniel, Ezekiel, Revelations, et.al. They have nothing to do with our age of grace. If the do, then God lied in the NT when He said that nobody knew the mystery until He gave it to Pau. The mystery is completely illuminated in the 7 church epistles, which very few denominations understand or teach. Most Christians are told to act like Jesus and little else. It's been going on for 2,000 years now, ever since Paul warned of the lies that even then were beginning to corrupt the truth. That's plenty of time to convince people of anything the churches desire them to believe. It makes it hard to break out of tradition and see the truth.

    The mystery occurs between Jesus' first (Gospels) and second appearance (Revelations). To read into this present era things that belong to the past and future only causes confusion. If WW1 occurred in this age, which it of course did, then there is nothing in the OT, Gospels included, that say anything at all about it. Everything in this age was kept secret. Very simple. Just needs to be believed. If it's not understood and believed, the rest of the story remains largely unclear. Speculation replaces truth.

    I would strongly suggest you do further research on your own and be prepared to shed some the beliefs of your denomination. To tell you the truth, I know of no denomination that understands the different eras in the Bible nor the people who are involved with each era.
     
  3. roger1440

    roger1440 I do stuff

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    First seek to end poverty within yourself then you will have an abundance to share. If you can do anything with your life, do what you preach. There is no more, that is the Gospel.
     
  4. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    1 Peter 1:10-12..."As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, 11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow. 12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things into which angels long to look." (NASB)

    Yes, Paul said of God's ancient men and women of faith....."All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth." (Hebrews 11:13)

    They knew what was coming but not how or when it would manifest. They knew that this world was NOT the one they were designed to live in....and that a better one was coming in the future when the seed of promise would liberate them, bringing in God's rulership back to the earth. None of the trauma of the old world would come back to haunt us. (Isaiah 65:17)

    When you say the word "grace", what do you understand it to mean?

    We have chosen not to use that word simply because of the way many of Christendom's churches have interpreted it. Some use it as an excuse to sin, taking on a "once saved, always saved" position. That is not what "grace" means...nor is that the purpose of it. We prefer the expression "undeserved kindness"; the Greek word "charis" has the central idea of 'that which is agreeable and winsome'. The word is often used to refer to a kind gift or a kind manner of giving. When referring to the undeserved kindness of God, the word describes a free gift given generously by God, with no expectation of repayment. Thus, it is an expression of God’s bounteous giving and generous love and kindness toward humans. The Greek term is also rendered by such expressions as “favor” and “kind gift.” It is given unearned and unmerited, motivated solely by the generosity of the giver. (2 Corinthians 6:1; Ephesians 1:7)

    Actually, Daniel's prophesies are entirely about "the time of the end". (Daniel 12:4; 9-10) Have you ever done a specific study on Daniel and his visions? It tells about the march of world powers from Babylon to the present day and the coming of God's Kingdom as it crushes all worldly kingdoms out of existence and replaces them with Messiah's rulership. (Daniel 2:25-45) True, they did not know the specifics, but the bare bones were there.

    Yes, Daniel, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel and others were told by God what was coming, but the details were not revealed until the time of the Apostles...even then, there was more to come as time went on (Proverbs 4:18) . Their prophesies have everything to do with our day....but perhaps you could describe what you believe "the age of grace" to mean?

    These "last days" are a judgment period just as it was before the flood of Noah's day. Jesus said it will have the same basic scenario....(Matthew 24:37-39)...no one taking much notice until it all goes pear-shaped and people realize that what Jesus and his disciples have been warning about all this time was true. They put their faith in the wrong people...and it will result in great disappointment, leading to a sense of utter betrayal and resulting in great anger. There are rough times ahead as God lifts the lid on who is running this show and how corrupt this system really is because the majority have been lulled into a false sense of dependency on the very agencies that have been exploiting their gullibility all this time. Greed has been driving everything.

    Daniel does .In fact the beasts of his prophesies tie in with the ones John saw in the Revelation.
    Publications — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

    That would undoubtedly be true if God was not the one preparing his people for what is coming.

    Daniel explains that at "the time of the end" God would "cleanse, whiten and refine" his people with an 'abundance of knowledge'. He said that those who acted wickedly (despite claiming to be God's worshippers) would continue to do so, largely ignoring those who accepted the cleansing and refining of their worship. God was going to do this in "the time of the end" which ties in with Jesus' parable of the wheat and the weeds. Only at the harvest time would the wheat be identified as completely different in appearance to the weeds. "Growing together" all through the history of "the church" is what Jesus said they would do, but when it was harvest time, the weeds were to be identified, collected up first by the reapers, and disposed of. There is no speculation...we are living it.

    I appreciate your concern, but it occurs to me that I have found the people that Jesus is directing in these last days. He commissioned them as a collective to 'preach the good news of the Kingdom in all the inhabited earth as a witness to all the nations' before 'the end would come'.(Matthew 24:14) It is not a work to be done by a few scattered individuals, this is to be an organized work, carried out by a large group of organized people as God has always had.

    As it was foretold in Isaiah 60:22...“The little one himself will become a thousand, and the small one a mighty nation."

    Jesus said that no one can come to the Father unless he is drawn by him. That makes this an invitation only arrangement. If God isn't drawing us, then we will never see the sense in what is being preached about his son and the role of the Kingdom for the future of mankind.

    If you have no brotherhood and are rubbing shoulders with an apostate church system, then how are you ever going to carry out the commission that Jesus has given to all of us? Just as Jesus followers abandoned apostate Judaism, so we must abandon apostate Christendom. (Revelation 18:4-5)

    That is how we see these things.
     
    #104 Deeje, May 31, 2018
    Last edited: May 31, 2018
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  5. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Under Jewish Law, as specified in Torah, there are around 10 different forms of taxation and one of charity that are demanded so as to help the poor and pay for other things as well. To leave everything just up to chance or prayer was not allowed.

    Not only is there no indication that Jesus opposed this, he actually adds to it in the Parable of the Widow's Mite, thus showing that she went beyond the requirements of the Law.
     
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  6. rrobs

    rrobs Well-Known Member

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    Anything spoken in the OT concerning the future dealt with either the first or second appearance of Jesus. There is nothing whatsoever mentioned in the OT (gospels included) about what happens between those two advents. Everything Daniel speaks of is fulfilled in Revelations, not in our present age. The nature of this age was kept secret in God until He revealed it to Paul. I know I've said all this, but I keep thinking if I put it in a slightly different way it may ring true. I tend towards optimism! So,

    Rom 16:25-26,
    25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
    26 But now (when God gave it to Paul) is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:​

    Between the beginning of the world until the Apostle Paul nothing was known of the mystery. If there is any reference in to OT to this age, God lied in Romans. He also lied in Ephesians.

    Eph 3:9-10,
    9 And to make all [men] see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
    10 To the intent that now (when God gave it to Paul) unto the principalities and powers in heavenly [places] might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
    As if two lies aren't bad enough, God also lied in Collossians.

    Col 1:26,
    [Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now (when God gave it to Paul) is made manifest to his saints:​

    I prefer to let the scriptures speak for themselves. If they say nobody in the OT knew about the mystery, then nobody knew. The whole Bible fits like a hand in a glove. There are no contradictions. If you want to make Daniel and others know about it, then you have to get rid of the above scriptures and several more. That's the problem with holding tradition above truth. It makes Word of God of none effect.

    Mark 7:9,
    And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
    You are my brother and as such I love you in Christ. Of course, I love to see people break free from tradition and see the simplicity and integrity of God's Word. Unfortunately it is not an everyday event. The denominations hold more sway in people's minds than the truth.

    In the end, neither Jesus nor Paul had much of a following. Men love traditions, ceremonies, rites, and shows of piety more than God. I want to be clear, I don't judge you or any person person. I assume all Christians are sincere, but sincerity is no guarantee for accuracy. The fault lies with the god of this world, the devil, and his most willing agent, the institution of denominations. The poor Pastor or Minister is only teaching what they themselves learned in the seminaries. Generation after generation, lies in the form of tradition have been taught instead of truth. Paul warned us about that before he even died. It's nothing new. That's about it.
     
    #106 rrobs, May 31, 2018
    Last edited: May 31, 2018
  7. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    I am curious.....why do you see the Revelation as taking place in the future? We see it all happening now.
    Daniel's prophesy takes us from the Babylonian Empire through Medo-Persia, to Greece, then Rome and then to the British empire and its eventual alliance with America......"the time of the end". We are living in the time of the feet of Nebuchadnezzar's dream image. The stone that is to become a mountain and fill the whole earth is poised to strike at any time. (Daniel 2:44) There are no ruling powers after the last one in Nebuchadnezzar's dream.

    [​IMG]

    Numbers have never meant much to God. He is after quality, not quantity.

    This is so true. I see this in the experience of the apostle Paul. He had the zeal but it was misdirected. Jesus put him on the right path.....but he had to humbly admit that he had been dead wrong about everything. Not everyone can. Pride gets in the way or a cherished belief cannot be relinquished.

    Humans will cling to what they want to believe. In a religious setting, it is obvious that they often take things to extremes. Jesus never did any of that. He was a simple man who lived a simple life and advocated that lifestyle for his disciples as well. There were no fancy costumes, funny headgear....ornate buildings or pomp and ceremony in first century Christianity.

    Yes, Paul wrote at 2 Timothy 3:12-13 "....all those desiring to live with godly devotion in association with Christ Jesus will also be persecuted. 13 But wicked men and impostors will advance from bad to worse, misleading and being misled."

    If God is the one who "draws" people to Christ and Jesus said that we would "know the truth" and that it would 'set us free'....that basically removes any excuse for ignorance IMO. It isn't that the truth is not 'out there'...it is just like the days of Noah.....no one believes what Christ's disciples are saying because they trust the institutions that have been leading them all this time. Both politically and religiously humans have been lulled into a false sense of security.....it seems like no co-incidence to me that these institutions are now being exposed as corrupt to the core. People are losing confidence in the things they once trusted. The banks and even the medical profession have been shown to be only interested in profits, not people.

    As Peter said....
    2 Peter 3:9-10...."The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
    10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be discovered."

    God is lifting the lid and showing people that there is no basis for confidence in anything this world has to offer....not in politics, not in religion, not in the commercial system, the advertising industry, or the entertainment industry....none of them care two hoots about humanity......all are geared to self interest.

    Follow the money trail to misery. :(
     
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  8. rrobs

    rrobs Well-Known Member

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    A careful reading of the events in Matthew 24 will line up perfectly with the 7 year tribulation period. There is no need to place those events where the don't belong, i.e. the present age which had been kept secret until God gave it to Paul. I've given you many verses that say that, so I won't repeat them again. Suffice it to say, the scriptures say we are living in a period that nobody knew about , not even Jesus, until after his death and resurrection, specifically the day of Pentecost. On that day it was an entirely different ballgame as to how God dealt with his people. That is the subject of the 7 church Epistles of Paul.

    For starters, his people were not longer just Israel. For the first time ever God created a new man from both Jew and Gentile. A carefully reading of Ephesians chapters 1 through 3 will be worth your while. Note the mystery, the how the Jew and Gentiles are being built together as an habitation of God.

    This age is unique, had a definite beginning, and it will have a definite ending, namely when the Lord descends and gathers those born again in this age, his saints, to be with him forevermore.

    1Thess 4:16-17,
    16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.​

    Be careful to note that it does not say Jesus comes to the earth at this time. He descends from heaven and gathers us together with him, where? We will meet him where he is, in the air. In Revelations he comes down to the earth.

    Now maybe the following makes sense.

    1Thess 1:10,
    And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us (Christians) from the wrath to come.​

    At that point, my friend, Revelations will commence. There is not a single verse in the OT or gospels that can not be fitted into Revelations, where it rightly belongs. There is no need whatsoever to make them fit with our present age of the mystery. Doing so only causes confusion. The book will not fit together like God intended. You have to keep the different eras in their correct place to understand God's masterful logos, His plan.

    Confusing the things of Israel with the things of church of the Body (Christians) would be akin to confusing the Garden of Eden with the period that began after Adam sinned, as though nothing had changed. It is certain things changed by his disobedience, and they've changed a few more times since. The Bible has unique periods that must be kept straight.

    1. Eden - original creation.
    2. Patriarchs - man walked by their conscience without specific guidelines,
    3. Israel - God gave them the specific guidelines, the Law of Moses
    4. First Advent - Jesus came and clarified the Law, was crucified, and most importantly, raised from the dead.
    5. Mystery - grace, righteousness by believing instead of legalism, Christ in us.
    6. Tribulation - Matthew 24, et. al.
    7. Thousand Year Kingdom - Jesus takes back control of earth from Satan. Satan rebels and is destroyed by God.
    8. Everlasting Kingdom - Jesus is undisputed King of Kings! Wherever Jesus is we will be. We will be back to Eden, but without conditions. There will be no tree of knowledge of good and evil to trick us ever again!
    You can go from #4 (first advent) straight to #6 (tribulation) and get an biblically accurate sequence of events in which God deals with Jews and Gentiles. It is #5 (the mystery) that was kept secret. It is a unique period in which God builds His habitation from both Jew and Gentile. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile during this age in which believing, not law, is the key to salvation. You should have seen that if you read Ephesians 1-3.

    That is why I see Revelations as occurring in the future, after the dead in Christ have risen and those still alive meet Jesus in the air.
     
    #108 rrobs, Jun 1, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2018
  9. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    I didn’t look at the link, but I agree with what you said. Putting an end to poverty will involve transformation, not piety. That’s what Jesus taught when he took the Pharisees to task for shaming the disciples for plucking wheat on the Sabbath: “The Sabbath was made for humanity, not humanity for the Sabbath.”
     
  10. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    I’d say that’s true for much of today’s evangelical movement, which glorifies piety over compassion. But it’s not true for the progressive movement, which, by and large, holds the ethics of justice and equity and compassion in very high esteem.
     
  11. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Yet, when faced with 5000 starving people, Jesus commanded his disciples to feed them. People supplied the food, God provided the increase, and people provided the sharing. It does take a relationship between humanity and Divinity to effect transformation.
     
  12. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Don’t kid yourself, and don’t try to pull the wool over the eyes of others, either. Most denominational clergy, trained in accredited seminaries, are far better trained and far more astute, and far, far more intuitive as regards spiritual matters than you give us credit for. Accredited seminaries teach much, much more than “traditions,” and they certainly don’t teach lies. They teach us how to think critically, and they spend a lot of time guiding us through our spiritual formation.

    If you don’t have any respect for the profession, that’s your misguided opinion. But be advised that you’re stepping on toes here when you voice that opinion. Frankly, sir, you don’t know me and you have no right to stand in judgment, either of my knowledge, of my spiritual disposition, and especially of my call and ordination to ministry. Nor those of my many fine colleagues.

    You and I disagree on many points; that’s no secret, and I respect your position. But I will not stand by and be silent while you publish such libelous statements about the profession. They are indefensible at best, and unfounded. I take offense.
     
  13. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson

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    It will never happen, I agree, only Jehovah can solve our problems, but, in my opinion the closest we could come to eliminating most poverty, crime, political, social, economic and religious corruption would be to get rid of our current monetary exchange, fractional reserve banking. Money. Science and technology has gotten to the point where money is obsolete. Something like the Venus Project
     
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