How Speciation Happens (yes it does)

[Deeje]

You need first to show that a creator exists. Then you need to show that your source is a story from that creator. Then you need to show that creator wasn't lying or fabricating. Then you need to show you are correctly interpreting that story.hen you need to actually go do the science others have already done.

At this point, you have exactly NO evidence.

Well, that's where you're wrong. I don't need to do any of those things....you need them, not me. But based on the actual evidence that I have seen of macro-evolution, it appears that you require way less real evidence than we do. It just has to sound good apparently.
Your 'gods' mumble in a special tongue and record their holy writings in text books with diagrams and illustrations, and have you all falling at their feet. Worship is a weird phenomenon, isn't it?

But the funny thing is, you think that is what has happened to us.

 

[Deeje]

Firstly, you don't know the meaning of the term "proof" if you keep using it in this context.

Third: I will not waste my time doing any providing of evidence since it's already been done, UNLESS:

Your entire stance is riddled with hypocrisy, inconsistency, misquotes, outright falsehoods, and elevating of opinion to the level of universal truth.

From your messages it's very apparent that you revel in performing at your very least. You're doing a disservice to your own side with such carelessness and intellectual laziness.

Me thinks that someone is taking himself a wee bit too seriously......for goodness sake, lighten up.

If you want to swallow the evolutionary-science Koolaid....that is your choice. Go and rant at someone else....I am not interested in your tirades.

Bye.....

 

[Darkstorn]

Me thinks that someone is taking himself a wee bit too seriously......for goodness sake, lighten up.

You performing this distraction is one of the things i was addressing in the post. Thanks for proving my point i suppose. I did make the claim that you are often reduced to give "humorous" smiley-filled one-liner responses to arguments. And here you do it in plain sight. Further reinforcing the point that you don't need me here to point out the contradictory nature of your many claims and arguments: Their contradictory nature should speak for themselves.

If you want to swallow the evolutionary-science Koolaid....that is your choice. Go and rant at someone else....I am not interested in your tirades.

Since you bring evolution into the mix again, i'm only going to assume that you didn't actually bother to read the post you were quoting... Basically relegating your comment into a tirade in itself. Maybe next time you're going to be informed about the subject you're talking about. Namely: Start by reading the quote you are quoting. Would help your case a lot more.

Bye.....

Is that a promise?

 

[ArtieE]

I did the research and I consulted the God who wrote the Bible and he told me that it was all true. I studied the Bible for years before making my commitment. I dotted all the i's and crossed all the t's and knew my God well before I vowed to serve his interests before my own in what is left of the time remaining in this world system. Can you see it going down? Many people who doubted before, are now convinced that we are living in the "last days". Its decision time.

The conduct of those who identify as Christians, Jews or Muslims, tell me that they do not practice what they preach....nor do they have love for one another. (John 13:34-35)

Can you define faith ArtieE......?

Let the Bible do it for you.....
Hebrews 11:1:
"Faith is the assured expectation of what is hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities that are not seen."

Everyone is free to search for their own faith, or lack of it.....and that is as it should be because these are conclusions reached in the heart, not just the mind. Our decisions, as far as God is concerned, tell him exactly who and what we are. It forms the basis for him to either accept us or reject us as citizens of his Kingdom. Its our decision, not his.

I think this must be an answer to a different post... my original post was:

"You only quote from certain books in a certain Bible... Why don't you ever quote from the Qu'ran? You know, the other book your god authored? Just for variation..."

I just wondered when you have two books from the same God why you completely ignore one of them and don't use both to prove your points...

 

[Deeje]

I just wondered when you have two books from the same God why you completely ignore one of them and don't use both to prove your points...

What makes you think that the Qur'an is authored by the same God who authored the Bible?

All the Abrahamic faiths have books that contain the writings of Moses, (Pentateuch) but that is about all they have in common.

Jews have the words of quite a few prophets sent by God to correct his errant people over time. All are recorded in their scriptures.

Muslims also have the writings of Mohammad and are supposed to live by his teachings, and they also accept Jesus as a prophet.

Christians have Jesus Christ and the teachings he promoted, along with the principles of the Law given through Moses.

Christians worship the same God that the ancient Jews used to worship before apostasy set in to take them on a different path.

Muslims, being descendants of Abraham through his half Egyptian son Ishmael, do not have the authority that Jesus stated.
Isaac was the one through whom the promised seed was to come....not Ishmael.

At John 4:22, Jesus addressed a Samaritan woman at a well. Samaritans also had a version of the Pentateuch.
He said to her....
"You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews."

So the first thing to do is sort out what you accept as scripture. I do not accept the Qur'an as inspired scripture.

 

[ArtieE]

What makes you think that the Qur'an is authored by the same God who authored the Bible?

"The Quran is the last testament in a series of divine revelations from God (Allah in Arabic). It consists of the unaltered and direct words of God, which were revealed through the Angel Gabriel to Muhammadp, the final prophet of Islam, more than 1400 years ago."
https://www.whyislam.org/on-faith/quran-the-word-of-god/

If one is to argue that God created something or argue against evolution I would assume that one could quote from both books since they were allegedly authored by the same God... why ignore one of the books?

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

You only quote from certain books in a certain Bible... Why don't you ever quote from the Qu'ran? You know, the other book your god authored? Just for variation...

That book has her slated for a "painful doom" for believing the wrong book:

Qu'ran 2:174 "Lo! those who hide aught of the Scripture which Allah hath revealed and purchase a small gain therewith, they eat into their bellies nothing else than fire. Allah will not speak to them on the Day of Resurrection, nor will He make them grow. Theirs will be a painful doom."

@Deeje - You asked others (paraphrasing), "What if you're wrong?" I ask you the same thing now.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

How do you get so many people to swallow it? You dress it up in high sounding lingo and imply through teachers and students alike that only idiots would question it.

Isn't that your tactic sans the "high sounding lingo"? :

"Only in your imagination......IMO only a fool could say that these are 'just accidents' of nature." Just Accidental?

"who can observe the talent of the craftsman and deny the existence of the artist?

Only an idiot. (complete or otherwise)" Just Accidental?

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Can you define faith ArtieE......? Let the Bible do it for you.....
Hebrews 11:1: "Faith is the assured expectation of what is hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities that are not seen."

That's not an accurate definition of faith (in the religious sense). Faith is nothing more or less than unjustified belief. There is no evident demonstration involved, and any assurance is self-assurance, not external validation. If evidence is involved and it supports an idea, the idea is no longer believed by faith and has become justified belief.

I say "faith in the religious sense" because, unfortunately, the word is also used to mean justified belief, as in having faith that one's car will probably start in the morning as it has the last 200 times it was tried. Justified belief is the antithesis of religious-type faith, or unjustified belief.

Incidentally, don't you accuse those that accept evolutionary science as believing without evidence, or by faith. You say that there is no evidence for "macro-evolution," just supposition. According to your Bible, that is then "the evident demonstration of realities that are not seen," and our expectations are "assured."

=====

Far off-topic digression for fun:

The word "faith" is a contronym (aka autoantonym) - a word with two definitions that are opposite in meaning. For example, "dust" can mean remove dust, as in dusting the furniture, or adding it, as in dusting for fingerprints.

"Cleave" can mean separate or adhere, as in a baby cleaving to its mother's breast

Similarly, "clip" can mean attach, as what a paper clip does, or cut, as hair.

How abut "oversight," which can mean close monitoring (oversight committee) or a carelessness (not inviting her was an oversight).

How about "left"? After all of the other guests had left (gone away), only Mary was left (remained).

How about "bound"? Bound for New York means moving. Bound to a board means fixed.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Perhaps it would help if you understood that the Bible itself prophesies the death of 'the church'.

Quite a few of us are predicting that, ourselves if by death we mean loss of cultural hegemony and relegation into relative obscurity. I expect the followers of Jesus to experience the same fate as the followers of Zeus and Be' al, the chief Druid god. There are still followers of both around today, but I think we can say that there religion is on life support if not fully dead.

Like many, many others, I see a day when the Christian church will be a small, silent sect like those other two. Religious self-identification surveys from Pew and others have been tracking the decline in the fraction of Americans calling themselves Christian as the fraction of "nones" (no religious affiliation) rises. We saw the same happen in Western Europe and the English speaking countries such as yours, and it is beginning to occur in Latin America as well.

. It is inevitable and beyond all human capability to save it. They are the 'weeds' of Jesus parable, and will be collected up and destroyed by the reapers. (Matthew 13:24-30; 36-43)

The one sowing the seeds of fake Christianity has also 'blinded' people to the truth concerning the Creator's existence. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4) How do you think he can even catch the wise and intellectual ones in his web of deceit?

Matthew 11:25:
Jesus said....“I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to babes."

He appeals to what he has always appealed to....self interest. 'You don't need to answer to anyone'....right?

So the academics are not really scoring high on the list with God, mostly because they think they are too intelligent to believe in an invisible God that they can't measure. Us 'uneducated morons' are trodden underfoot as some kind of dirt beneath their feet. I wonder who will have the last laugh though?

As with Judaism before it, Christendom has based all of its teachings on the traditions of men and not on the solid teachings of God's word. They use justification to practice all manner of things that God's word condemns.

Matthew describes Jesus' response to those who call him their "Lord" but who fail to do what he commanded them to do.....

Matthew 7:21-23:
“Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’"

I believe that the time is almost upon us, so our decisions now will have everlasting consequences. You can believe it or not.

This is your personal theology. You ought to know that it isn't meaningful to an unbeliever, but thanks for making the effort.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Christians worship the same God that the ancient Jews used to worship before apostasy set in to take them on a different path.

Sorry, but it's the Christians that went off on a different path. The Jews are still the Jews.

Christianity is a spin-off of Judaism, making the Christians the apostates if that's how you define schism or unorthodoxy.

 

[Deeje]

If one is to argue that God created something or argue against evolution I would assume that one could quote from both books since they were allegedly authored by the same God... why ignore one of the books?

"Allegedly"...yes. But Allah (LORD) is not YHWH (Yahweh, Jehovah). The god of Christendom and Islam are nameless gods...like Baal, (Lord) who was identified only by his location. He takes on the personality of the people who serve him....a cruel and capricious god who tortures souls alive in a fiery hell forever, with no way to repent.

There are only two gods who are served in this world and one of them is a pretender. (1 John 5:19; 2 Corinthians 4:3-4)
There is only one true faith (Ephesians 4:5)....the rest are all fakes, set up by this rival god to take worship away from YHWH. All false worship goes to the pretender by default. He doesn't care what god you worship as long as it isn't YHWH.

The God of Jesus Christ has a personal name, stated throughout the OT almost 7,000 times. (Psalm 83:18 KJV) The Jews never utter it, but choose to identify their god as "Adonai" (LORD) despite the fact that the OT Bible writers used God's name frequently and reverently. This is why Simon Peter reported "how God first intervened to take from the Gentiles a people for His name." (Acts 15:14) God's name is attached to his people, both Jewish and Gentile followers of Christ.

This is the God I serve...the same one that Jesus represented....YHWH.

 

[Deeje]

That's not an accurate definition of faith (in the religious sense). Faith is nothing more or less than unjustified belief. There is no evident demonstration involved, and any assurance is self-assurance, not external validation.

Oh, but you are so wrong.....to 'experience' God in your life, you have to be a believer. (John 3:16)
To be a believer, you have to have the right qualities in order to be "drawn" by God to his truth in the first place. (John 6:44) Once you have been introduced to this God under those circumstances, the impact is life changing. You have obviously never had such an experience. Its what transforms "I believe" into "I know". It engenders confidence, not arrogance.
We are messengers, not judges. All are free to accept it or reject it, but there is a time limit. (Matthew 24:14)

Incidentally, don't you accuse those that accept evolutionary science as believing without evidence, or by faith. You say that there is no evidence for "macro-evolution," just supposition. According to your Bible, that is then "the evident demonstration of realities that are not seen," and our expectations are "assured."

Then you should have nothing to worry about. Your 'faith' is in the 'science gods' and their writings.....that is OK....its your choice to make.

What are your expectations, just out of curiosity? What future do you see for planet Earth only in the hands of man? Does his track record inspire you?

Sorry, but it's the Christians that went off on a different path. The Jews are still the Jews.

Christianity is a spin-off of Judaism, making the Christians the apostates if that's how you define schism or unorthodoxy.

Actually, Jesus did not have a good thing to say about the religious leaders of his day, or their traditions....he condemned them to "gehenna", (eternal destruction) so I think it safe to say that Judaism was apostate before Jesus even arrived. Jesus came to correct God's people as the prophets before him had done on many occasions, only to receive the same treatment. (Matthew 23:37-39) Just being "Jewish" is not what is required to be a worshipper of Yahweh. One has to be obedient to the teachings of God's son....their Messiah.

And don't get me started on "orthodoxy".

 

[Polymath257]

Well, that's where you're wrong. I don't need to do any of those things....you need them, not me.

If you want to substantiate the claims you have made, then yes, you do. If, on the other hand, you just want to make unsubstantiated claims, then it is OK for the rest of us to ignore them.

But based on the actual evidence that I have seen of macro-evolution, it appears that you require way less real evidence than we do. It just has to sound good apparently.

On the contrary, that is the way of religion. Science requires actual evidence, and hypothesis testing. That you ignore the evidence doesn't mean it isn't there and conclusive.

Your 'gods' mumble in a special tongue and record their holy writings in text books with diagrams and illustrations, and have you all falling at their feet. Worship is a weird phenomenon, isn't it?

But the funny thing is, you think that is what has happened to us.

I do not have 'gods'. Yes, we collect evidence and present it in diagrams, in charts, and in technical terminology. That is how one learns about the universe. If you want to ignore the ways we collect and organize information, you can remain ignorant. I choose not to be.

 

[Deeje]

If you want to substantiate the claims you have made, then yes, you do. If, on the other hand, you just want to make unsubstantiated claims, then it is OK for the rest of us to ignore them.

You are free to ignore anything you like. Its not my job to convert you...only to inform you that there is an explanation for creation and a hope for the future offered by the Creator. You don't have to accept the offer....that's up to you.

On the contrary, that is the way of religion. Science requires actual evidence, and hypothesis testing. That you ignore the evidence doesn't mean it isn't there and conclusive.

I have seen the evidence for macro-evolution.....it is not convincing at all. There is no "actual evidence" because interpretation of said evidence is translated to fit the hypothesis. What actual testing can anyone do for something that took place millions or even billions of years ago? Suggesting that something "might have" or "could have' happened is guessing, not provable science.

I do not have 'gods'.

I think you do. You may not be aware of how much their words affect how you think. Deception is what it is....no one knows that they have been deceived until the truth exposes the error. To be talked out of believing in a Creator by someone who can "prove" that he doesn't exist is an appeal to self interest. There is no one to answer to, and that makes man the most intelligent creature in existence. Those who have superior intellect then become 'gods' to those who fall at their feet and hang on their every word. Sounds like a belief system to me.

Yes, we collect evidence and present it in diagrams, in charts, and in technical terminology. That is how one learns about the universe. If you want to ignore the ways we collect and organize information, you can remain ignorant. I choose not to be.

I have no problem learning about the universe. As a branch of science, astronomy is of great interest to me, along with their diagrams and charts....but what does that have to do with evolutionary science? In no other branch of science are the conclusions they reach of such importance. No other branch of science so completely eliminates a creator like macro-evolution does.

 

[Polymath257]

You are free to ignore anything you like. Its not my job to convert you...only to inform you that there is an explanation for creation and a hope for the future offered by the Creator. You don't have to accept the offer....that's up to you.

Consider me informed. I have looked at the creationist tracks and have found them to be uniformly poor. There is simply no real 'explanation' there because they ignore or misunderstand many basics.

I have seen the evidence for macro-evolution.....it is not convincing at all. There is no "actual evidence" because interpretation of said evidence is translated to fit the hypothesis. What actual testing can anyone do for something that took place millions or even billions of years ago? Suggesting that something "might have" or "could have' happened is guessing, not provable science.

Sorry, but you clearly have NOT seen the evidence. If you have, you would be much more knowledgeable and wouldn't have issues with the terminology You have read a few creationist tracks, directed at gullible people like you, and have swallowed their offerings.

I think you do. You may not be aware of how much their words affect how you think. Deception is what it is....no one knows that they have been deceived until the truth exposes the error. To be talked out of believing in a Creator by someone who can "prove" that he doesn't exist is an appeal to self interest. There is no one to answer to, and that makes man the most intelligent creature in existence. Those who have superior intellect then become 'gods' to those who fall at their feet and hang on their every word. Sounds like a belief system to me.

Your analysis here shows just how much you fail to understand. I was *never* convinced of the existence of a creator. It *always* seemed like a strange and bizarre claim. I *have* read the Bible and found it to be rather typical propaganda and myth.

I have no problem learning about the universe. As a branch of science, astronomy is of great interest to me, along with their diagrams and charts....but what does that have to do with evolutionary science? In no other branch of science are the conclusions they reach of such importance. No other branch of science so completely eliminates a creator like macro-evolution does.

There is no fundamental difference between macro-evolution and adaptation, which you accept. You have no evidence of a 'species barrier' or a mechanism for such. In fact, the *evidence* is that no such thing exists.

So, my dear, *you* are the one deluded by those wanting to separate you from your money and have your political support. Good luck!

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Oh, but you are so wrong.....to 'experience' God in your life, you have to be a believer. (John 3:16) To be a believer, you have to have the right qualities in order to be "drawn" by God to his truth in the first place. (John 6:44)

Yes, you have to be willing to believe without critical thinking to receive the Bible at face value.

Once you have been introduced to this God under those circumstances, the impact is life changing.

I don't care for the changes I see. Of course, I'm seeing America mostly. The problem is much greater there that where you live.

What are your expectations, just out of curiosity? What future do you see for planet Earth only in the hands of man? Does his track record inspire you?

Yes, man's track record has been more than inspiring.

The future is difficult to anticipate. Short term, I see setbacks. I am very concerned about the intellectual and moral collapse of America. I have no idea how it can recover. I don't see the necessary resources, and the incessant political commentary is having a devastating effect. My expectations for America is that it will readjust to a lower moral plane.

I am also concerned about the rise of the surveillance state and the erosion of democratic principles and of church-state separation.

But America is not the world. If it withers, life goes on elsewhere.

Why are you so much more pessimistic than I am? I'm the American. Your country seems to be doing fine. Mine doesn't seem to be able to tie its shoes without tripping these days.

******

"Only in the hands of men"? Were you hoping to share the decisions with giraffes or some of their cousins? If you're waiting for a god, I believe that you've got a long wait. Very long.

I'm constantly amazed at how some posters seem unwilling to recognize that the people with whom they are discussing don't necessarily share their beliefs. You keep assuming that this god exists for both of us in these discussions. Can you be a little more adaptable? You have no hope of communicating with an atheist if you cannot assimilate that he is an atheist and doesn't assume what you do when you make these comments or ask these questions. I just reject such arguments. Begin with shared premises if you want to have an impact.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

As a branch of science, astronomy is of great interest to me, along with their diagrams and charts.

Do you accept only micro-orbiting - short changes in an orbiting body's position over shorter periods - or are you willing to consider the heresy that over longer periods, these changes accrue into macro-orbiting? Pluto has never been observed to complete an orbit of the sun. That means that it never has and cannot, right?

That's pretty much your argument against "macro-evolution," isn't it? We've not yet observed the ascendance of new phyla, so it never happened in the eons before we began observing, right?

 

[Deeje]

Sorry, but you clearly have NOT seen the evidence. If you have, you would be much more knowledgeable and wouldn't have issues with the terminology You have read a few creationist tracks, directed at gullible people like you, and have swallowed their offerings.

Talking of "gullible people"......you couldn't possibly be one of them, could you?

You think intelligence naturally rules out gullibility? Why do you think Jesus said that God has hidden his truth from "the wise and intellectual and revealed them to babes"? (Matthew 11:25) Those who think that they are too intelligent to believe in God will know all about him soon enough.

"Issues with the terminology"? You mean like "might have" or "could have" has to mean "must have"? You're funny.

Why did science need to change the definition of the word "theory"?

Here is the dictionary definition:
"noun
noun: theory; plural noun: theories
a supposition or a system of ideas intended to explain something, especially one based on general principles independent of the thing to be explained.
"Darwin's theory of evolution"
synonyms: hypothesis, thesis, conjecture, supposition, speculation, postulation, postulate, proposition, premise, surmise, assumption, presumption, presupposition, notion, guess, hunch, feeling, suspicion"

Do you see evolution being treated like any of those definitions?

Funny that.

Your analysis here shows just how much you fail to understand. I was *never* convinced of the existence of a creator. It *always* seemed like a strange and bizarre claim. I *have* read the Bible and found it to be rather typical propaganda and myth.

I keep hearing this "you fail to understand" stuff.....what am I failing to understand? That I am not as 'brainwashed' as you all seem to be...needing no real evidence to support my beliefs? I have more evidence right under my own nose to support the existence of a master designer, than you have for eliminating him. I don't need someone with a science degree to tell me what I see with my own eyes. You apparently do. You are welcome to that opinion.....it is way off key to me.

There is no fundamental difference between macro-evolution and adaptation, which you accept. You have no evidence of a 'species barrier' or a mechanism for such. In fact, the *evidence* is that no such thing exists.

Oh but there is a huge difference. Adaptation can be demonstrated in a lab. Calling it "micro-evolution" merely demonstrates that you want that idea to flow beyond what can be proven, as if one naturally explains the other...they do not....by a long shot. That is a hypothetical that cannot be demonstrated in any scientific experiment. It is taken on faith and belief in the words of your 'gods'.....just like the faith and belief I have in mine.

So, my dear, *you* are the one deluded by those wanting to separate you from your money and have your political support. Good luck!

Condescension now?

That's what you have to resort to?

Very telling.

That is also another way you all seem to demonstrate a perceived position of superiority.....who or what makes you think that you have the high ground on this topic? IMO, your 'gods' are in no way superior to mine....you just assume that they are because you have been convinced by those you look up to. I am not convinced, just as you are not convinced about my God. So be it.
We have each made our choice. No use

And just for the record, no one 'separates me from my money' against my will except the ones who have a right by law to demand it. And because I have no political affiliations.....I am at a loss to understand the implications of your assertions. Don't lump us in with Christendom...we are nothing like them.

 

[Deeje]

Yes, you have to be willing to believe without critical thinking to receive the Bible at face value.

Perhaps one can 'overthink' without being critical enough....or 'underthink' whilst being too critical of the wrong things?

We humans are a strange bunch when it comes to thinking ability.

I don't care for the changes I see. Of course, I'm seeing America mostly. The problem is much greater there that where you live.

What is worse?.....a secular society run by those with no moral code or a religious society driven by a flawed moral code? Not much of a choice is there?

Yes, man's track record has been more than inspiring.

What planet do you live on? Man in all his accumulated wisdom and scientific knowledge, has brought life to the brink of extinction on this planet in just the last 100 years.
He has polluted the daylights out of the air, water and soil, destroyed millions of lives through wars driven by greed and corruption, and created weapons that can wipe out the entire human race in a matter of hours.....this inspires you? Really?

My expectations for America is that it will readjust to a lower moral plane.

The rest of the world knows that everything must be "dumbed down" for America....but why? How do intelligent people even cope living among a race of 5 year olds? Isn't it time to grow up?

Who is preventing it?

I am also concerned about the rise of the surveillance state and the erosion of democratic principles and of church-state separation.

"Big brother" was foretold.....and he has well and truly arrived. Are you prepared for what happens next?

But America is not the world. If it withers, life goes on elsewhere.

Oh, but you are wrong. America sneezes and the rest of the world catches a cold. Its all tied up with alliances....its what led the whole world into war in 1914 and what has perpetuated wars fought on foreign soil ever since.

Why are you so much more pessimistic than I am? I'm the American. Your country seems to be doing fine. Mine doesn't seem to be able to tie its shoes without tripping these days.

I guess its the difference between realizing that you are a hypocrite and choosing the other option.....or rejecting the other option because you think the church can't be wrong. The biggest hypocrites are the religious ones. You think God doesn't know this? Who did Jesus criticize most?

My country is morally and spiritually bankrupt but its almost proud of it. Your country is pretending that its Christian whilst breaking almost every command that God ever gave. Who is in a worst position?

"Only in the hands of men"? Were you hoping to share the decisions with giraffes or some of their cousins? If you're waiting for a god, I believe that you've got a long wait. Very long.

If you think mankind's future is only in the hands of men, then I pity you. I am prepared to wait for as long as it takes. God does not operate in Earth time, so when universal time is up, it will all happen as it should. In the meantime, we will do as Christ instructed. Regardless of the time taken, it is still the best way to live.

I'm constantly amazed at how some posters seem unwilling to recognize that the people with whom they are discussing don't necessarily share their beliefs.

Well I guess some posters forget that they are not the only ones who read these posts. The conversations are for the benefit of all, gaining an overview of both positions. Is that such a bad thing?

You keep assuming that this god exists for both of us in these discussions. Can you be a little more adaptable? You have no hope of communicating with an atheist if you cannot assimilate that he is an atheist and doesn't assume what you do when you make these comments or ask these questions. I just reject such arguments. Begin with shared premises if you want to have an impact.

Again, the posts here are not just a conversation between you and a believer.....they are for all to read and take in both perspectives. People are evaluating the content of these discussions.