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How Speciation Happens (yes it does)

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Why did science need to change the definition of the word "theory"?

Science added a new definition as it frequently does without changing any existing definitions.

It's definitions for energy, force, work and power would be different from a lay persons. Work, for example, is force over distance.

Oh but there is a huge difference. Adaptation can be demonstrated in a lab. Calling it "micro-evolution" merely demonstrates that you want that idea to flow beyond what can be proven, as if one naturally explains the other...they do not....by a long shot. That is a hypothetical that cannot be demonstrated in any scientific experiment. It is taken on faith and belief in the words of your 'gods'.....just like the faith and belief I have in mine.

You keep avoiding the barrier problem. You have no argument until you successfully demonstrate why your unsupported contention that smaller changes over shorter durations cannot accrue into larger changes over larger durations is correct.

As I already said, it's like saying that Pluto can move a little in the sky ("micro-orbit") but not enough to complete an orbit around the sun ("macro-orbit"). If you had said that, you should expect people to ask you why not. How much credibility would you expect to have if you not only had no answer, but repeatedly evaded the question as you did here

Don't lump us in with Christendom...we are nothing like them.

Your perspective is different than a non-Christians. You see yourselves as one distinct from many. Outsiders see another flavor of Christianity.
 
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It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
What is worse?.....a secular society run by those with no moral code or a religious society driven by a flawed moral code? Not much of a choice is there?

Nobody has no moral code.

What planet do you live on? Man in all his accumulated wisdom and scientific knowledge, has brought life to the brink of extinction on this planet in just the last 100 years.
He has polluted the daylights out of the air, water and soil, destroyed millions of lives through wars driven by greed and corruption, and created weapons that can wipe out the entire human race in a matter of hours.....this inspires you? Really?

We've been through this already.

The rest of the world knows that everything must be "dumbed down" for America....but why? How do intelligent people even cope living among a race of 5 year olds? Isn't it time to grow up? Who is preventing it?

That's a long subject best discussed elsewhere.

"Big brother" was foretold.....and he has well and truly arrived. Are you prepared for what happens next?

I've done what I can.

My country is morally and spiritually bankrupt but its almost proud of it. Your country is pretending that its Christian whilst breaking almost every command that God ever gave. Who is in a worst position?

I doubt that your country is morally or spiritually bankrupt. I'll bet that Australians are happier than Americans, too.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Perhaps one can 'overthink' without being critical enough....or 'underthink' whilst being too critical of the wrong things?

We humans are a strange bunch when it comes to thinking ability.
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Very true.

What is worse?.....a secular society run by those with no moral code or a religious society driven by a flawed moral code? :shrug: Not much of a choice is there?
Much better would be a secular society run by those with a moral code.


The rest of the world knows that everything must be "dumbed down" for America....but why? How do intelligent people even cope living among a race of 5 year olds? Isn't it time to grow up?
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Who is preventing it?
Mostly, the religious folk are the ones standing in the way of a decent education. Those, and the people who don't want to pay for educating their kids.


"Big brother" was foretold.....and he has well and truly arrived. Are you prepared for what happens next?
unsure.gif
And Big Brother will probably be backed by the religious right.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Talking of "gullible people"......you couldn't possibly be one of them, could you?
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You think intelligence naturally rules out gullibility? Why do you think Jesus said that God has hidden his truth from "the wise and intellectual and revealed them to babes"? (Matthew 11:25) Those who think that they are too intelligent to believe in God will know all about him soon enough.

Um...because its a nice way to divert criticism?

"Issues with the terminology"? You mean like "might have" or "could have" has to mean "must have"? You're funny.
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Yes, scientists are *much* more cautious in their conclusions than the average son. They have learned to be.

Why did science need to change the definition of the word "theory"?
Because they have found that when they term something a 'law' it tends to need modification later.


I keep hearing this "you fail to understand" stuff.....what am I failing to understand? That I am not as 'brainwashed' as you all seem to be...needing no real evidence to support my beliefs? I have more evidence right under my own nose to support the existence of a master designer, than you have for eliminating him. I don't need someone with a science degree to tell me what I see with my own eyes. You apparently do. You are welcome to that opinion.....it is way off key to me.
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And yet, it remains the truth.


Oh but there is a huge difference. Adaptation can be demonstrated in a lab. Calling it "micro-evolution" merely demonstrates that you want that idea to flow beyond what can be proven, as if one naturally explains the other...they do not....by a long shot. That is a hypothetical that cannot be demonstrated in any scientific experiment. It is taken on faith and belief in the words of your 'gods'.....just like the faith and belief I have in mine.

But we have the fossils to show that adaptation *does* continue to provide large scale changes. We can test the small scale stuff in the lab and in the field. The fossils show that this continues for the long term.


Condescension now?
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That's what you have to resort to?
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Very telling.
Well, we *know* that churches run on money provided by their followers. We know that they use propaganda as a means to get more followers. We *know* that most of them are false. And we know that *none* of them have any evidence to back them up.

That is also another way you all seem to demonstrate a perceived position of superiority.....who or what makes you think that you have the high ground on this topic?
Actual evidence. As opposed to untestable opinions.

IMO, your 'gods' are in no way superior to mine....you just assume that they are because you have been convinced by those you look up to. I am not convinced, just as you are not convinced about my God. So be it.
I have looked at the evidence and history of God-belief. I have read books on theology. I have read the apologetics. I can point to specific flaws in them.Have you actually looked at a technical discussion of evolution? Or do you get all your material from popular sources?
We have each made our choice. No use
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And just for the record, no one 'separates me from my money' against my will except the ones who have a right by law to demand it. And because I have no political affiliations.....I am at a loss to understand the implications of your assertions. Don't lump us in with Christendom...we are nothing like them.

And yet, you have all the same basic characteristics. Faith is what leads to superstition. And denial of science is one of the many methods of how faith does that.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Nobody has no moral code.



We've been through this already.



That's a long subject best discussed elsewhere.



I've done what I can.



I doubt that your country is morally or spiritually bankrupt. I'll bet that Australians are happier than Americans, too.
Oh Australia is one of the happiest countries in the world. But Deeje denies all the elitist conspiracy on data, analysis, figures and charts and goes by her gut and feelings.
Australia is one of the 10 happiest countries in the world
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
In my past posts I have shown actual mechanism for speciation with evidence. The last objection of creationists is that mere speciation into two reproductively isolated species does not mean that they will continue to diverge over successive generations so that eventually their descendants will look so different as to go into different genera. Unfortunately for creationists, quite apart from the fossil evidence that shows that this occured all the time, Mathematics all but guarantees that without the reshuffling of allele variants, the newly speciated groups and all further branches will indeed diverge away indefinitely.

The Mathematics is the Mathematics of Random Walk. The Mathematics shows that mutations that change DNA sequences will inevitably drive two non_mixing populations of allele farther and farther apart, even if the initial allele fractions in the two populations were exactly identical. This result can be deduced from Mathematics alone. The consequences of gradually diverging genetic code is greater difference in how the species look and behave til we get genus and family level differences. Natural selection can slow down or speed up this rate of divergence by removing some mutations and fixing some. But it cannot stop this random walk. The Mathematics and the effect can be seen below. Of course random walk processes is extremely important in a whole host of systems and statisticians and mathematicians know their features very well. Evolution can be succinctly described as a Mutation driven random walk of genetic information over a selection fitness landscape. Note the figures where one sees how divergence occurs and the 2D case where one sees islands of Random Walk solutions separated by empty stretches with thin transitional bridges. These features arise from the math itself. The genetic and fossil evidence obviously provides excellent evidence that evolution follows these kinds of mathematical processes.
Random walk - Wikipedia
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walks_1_steps_10000_plot.png


So scientists have the mechanism, the Mathematics and the expected evidence predicted by this Mathematics in genes and fossils.

So objections against macroevolution is?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
You keep avoiding the barrier problem. You have no argument until you successfully demonstrate why your unsupported contention that smaller changes over shorter durations cannot accrue into larger changes over larger durations is correct.

Genetic barriers exist everywhere. Horses and donkeys produce mules that are invariably sterile. Donkeys and zebras have been crossed as have lions and tigers....their offspring do not reproduce. If that is not a barrier, I don't know what is.....?

When Darwin observed the species on the Galapagos Islands.....what did he see? Not one kind of creature morphing into another, but variety produced within various species. The finches were still finches, though adapted to a different environment to the mainland species......same with the iguanas and tortoises. The separation did not transform them into something else. Adaptation just made them slightly different to their mainland cousins.

Your perspective is different than a non-Christians. You see yourselves as one distinct from many. Outsiders see another flavor of Christianity.

Just as Jesus was viewed as just another sect of Judaism I guess. How the population saw him was governed to a great extent on how he was portrayed by those who opposed him. Its not how man views anything that really counts at the end of the day.....its how our Maker sees us, whether we profess to belief in him or not, has very little to do with anything.

Nobody has no moral code.

Again I have to ask what planet you live on? :shrug:
If things were not punishable by law, and there was no law enforcement, how moral do you think people would be?
In this world people are by and large driven by self interest. It's not even about obeying the law....but whether or not they get caught.

We've been through this already.
And the world has not improved in the slightest since we first discussed it. Come to think of it....the world has never improved when you consider that for every good thing they produce, there are a hundred things that are detrimental, either to human life directly or by messing up the environment.

That's a long subject best discussed elsewhere.

:facepalm: Oh dear......Should we create a special forum?
whistle.gif


I doubt that your country is morally or spiritually bankrupt. I'll bet that Australians are happier than Americans, too.

"Happier"....hmmmmmm.....can you give me a definition of this "happiness"? Is it somewhere between the drug related crime and gangland murders or the the spiritually and morally deficient 'dole bludgers' who sponge off the system and have kids for the money the government gives them between jail sentences?

Those who shouldn't breed are paid to do it so a large proportion of children are born into a situation where there are no fathers and families are often fragmented and abusive. Those who should be having children are opting for a childless career and intend to make no personal sacrifices for anyone....you mean that "happiness"?

Or is it the undisciplined brats who attend school whom the teachers are not allowed to even touch, who bully the daylights out of some poor kids via Facebook, who then go and top themselves.....? You mean that "happiness"? If we are such a "happy" country, then why are so many of our population on anti-depressants?

Ask the parents of those affected by the ice epidemic who have destroyed any hope of ever being employed again due to the permanent brain damage they have suffered.
When you say "happier than Americans"......how much does it take to be happier than Americans?
unsure.gif


Aussies are as concerned about the inadequacies of their governments as anyone else in the world. How do you ignore all that unhappiness to concentrate on a few who might have dodged a bullet here and there?

I cannot understand your optimism.....it appears to be selective blindness at its best. :cool:
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Yes, scientists are *much* more cautious in their conclusions than the average son. They have learned to be.

Isn't that because evolution is not an exact science? Caution is needed when you infer that supposition is fact. The truth tends to move people to a different conclusion, which means that what was taught initially, wasn't really true. How do you teach that as fact? How many science students treat evolution as a suggestion? :shrug: That is all it really is.

Because they have found that when they term something a 'law' it tends to need modification later.

Which means that nothing was a fact to begin with......why then is it taught as a fact to school children?
I am glad that JW's have a more reasonable alternative to the flawed suggestion of evolution and creationism, because they can explain quite rationally how creation came about without casting Genesis or God into the realms of mythology.

And yet, it remains the truth.

Only to those of you who wish to eliminate the Creator. It makes no difference to him. His purpose will go ahead with us or without us. We can all choose our own 'truth'.

But we have the fossils to show that adaptation *does* continue to provide large scale changes. We can test the small scale stuff in the lab and in the field. The fossils show that this continues for the long term.

No you don't. That is simply not true. You have scientists interpreting fossil evidence to fit their theory. If you had real proof, then the language of suggestion would be unnecessary. I would not be reading "might have" or "could have" or "leads us to the conclusion that", because it would be facts, not conjecture in the articles......so, seriously, you can test nothing that happened millions of years ago. The fossils have no voice unless scientists give them one.
I believe that evolutionary science is a lousy ventriloquist.
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Well, we *know* that churches run on money provided by their followers. We know that they use propaganda as a means to get more followers. We *know* that most of them are false. And we know that *none* of them have any evidence to back them up.

Well, I think God knows full well who is serving his interests and who is serving their own. He isn't stupid you know. :rolleyes:

When you speak of "evidence", you have to understand that we believers in a Creator have just as much real evidence as you do. We can make suggestions and offer conjecture and say "God did it" just as easily as scientists say "natural selection did it". :D


Actual evidence. As opposed to untestable opinions.

There is no "actual evidence".....I keep hearing about all this "evidence" and yet when it is presented, its nothing more than supposition and suggestion dressed up as fact. You'll have to do better than that.

I have looked at the evidence and history of God-belief. I have read books on theology. I have read the apologetics. I can point to specific flaws in them.

You have looked at Christendom's version of history and God-belief. Theology is their brand of biblical interpretation...not God's. I can point to lots of flaws in it myself.....it's complete rubbish. Tell me something I don't know. Jesus already exposed the whole mess about two thousand years ago in his parable about the "wheat and the weeds". He even foretold the outcome for them. (Matthew 7:21-23) He isn't stupid either.

Have you actually looked at a technical discussion of evolution? Or do you get all your material from popular sources?

Since I am not a scientist, the lingo means little to me. When things are explained in terminology I can understand, it simply reinforces how much guesswork is really going on. Are you going to tell us now that "popular sources" are not telling the truth? Or is it just harder to hide the truth when you can't use the lingo? :shrug:

And yet, you have all the same basic characteristics. Faith is what leads to superstition. And denial of science is one of the many methods of how faith does that.

Humans are want to lead themselves into superstition because they have a problem sticking to the simple truth. They always seem to want to embellish things....but then so do evolutionary scientists. There is no way to prove what happened before humans were here to document anything. That is what 'prehistoric' means after all.
You have been led to believe a bigger fantasy than you think we have, because the idea appeals to you. Those who want to lose the Creator simply eliminate him from their thoughts altogether. That is of course your prerogative. :) But it doesn't make him go away.
 
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Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Isn't that because evolution is not an exact science? Caution is needed when you infer that supposition is fact. The truth tends to move people to a different conclusion, which means that what was taught initially, wasn't really true. How do you teach that as fact? How many science students treat evolution as a suggestion? :shrug: That is all it really is.

No. THis is the case in *every* science. No observation is completely accurate, so we are *always* working with the theory (or law--they are the same) that best explains the current evidence.

So, Newton's law of gravity was a *theory* and has actually been overturned by Einstein's *theory* of general relativity. It is possible that this theory will be overturned by some sort of quantum gravity in the future.

Which means that nothing was a fact to begin with......why then is it taught as a fact to school children?

Science *always* works on the best explanation of the current data. As we learn more, we allow for our ideas to change. The point is that they get more and more accurate over time.

So, even though Newton's 'law' of gravity has been 'overturned' and is not a 'fact', it is still accurate enough to send probes to Mars and other planets. it is also considerably simpler to use that Einstein's general relativity, so it is used for any situation where the speeds are small compared to that of light or where the gravitational field is small.

We teach our children (and even first year college students) the Newtonian viewpoint because it is easier and accurate enough for most situations.

In the same way, we *know* from our data that species change over geological time. That is evolution. The mechanisms of evolution, however, are based on the accuracy of our current observations. it is expected that they will be modified to be more accurate as more information is discovered.

I am glad that JW's have a more reasonable alternative to the flawed suggestion of evolution and creationism, because they can explain quite rationally how creation came about without casting Genesis or God into the realms of mythology.

This is just another hypothesis. But it is one that either gives no testable predictions (which is required for a science) or the testbale predictions (like a global flood) have been shown to be incorrect.


Only to those of you who wish to eliminate the Creator. It makes no difference to him. His purpose will go ahead with us or without us. We can all choose our own 'truth'.
A viewpoint supported by no evidence can be ignored until there is evidence.


No you don't. That is simply not true. You have scientists interpreting fossil evidence to fit their theory. If you had real proof, then the language of suggestion would be unnecessary. I would not be reading "might have" or "could have" or "leads us to the conclusion that", because it would be facts, not conjecture in the articles......so, seriously, you can test nothing that happened millions of years ago. The fossils have no voice unless scientists give them one.

All this shows that you don't understand how science is done and what it even means to be a scientific truth. First, scientists tend to be cautious. Second, they are *always* tentative in their conclusions because it is *always* possible that new information will require modification of their conclusions--making them more accurate.


Well, I think God knows full well who is serving his interests and who is serving their own. He isn't stupid you know. :rolleyes:
It is hard for something that is non-existent to be stupid.

When you speak of "evidence", you have to understand that we believers in a Creator have just as much real evidence as you do. We can make suggestions and offer conjecture and say "God did it" just as easily as scientists say "natural selection did it". :D

OK, give a *testable* prediction. One that, if not verified, will make you reconsider your position. I can do that easily with evolution: finding a mammal (say, a rabbit) in pre-cambrian deposits.


There is no "actual evidence".....I keep hearing about all this "evidence" and yet when it is presented, its nothing more than supposition and suggestion dressed up as fact. You'll have to do better than that.

Do you deny the fossils exist? Do you deny that these fossils are of species that existed at one time in the past? Do you deny that the fossils corresponding to different times in the past are different? Do you accept that the species at one time are close to those at nearby times both before and after? if you accept these, then you accept evolution: that species change over geological time.



Since I am not a scientist, the lingo means little to me. When things are explained in terminology I can understand, it simply reinforces how much guesswork is really going on. Are you going to tell us now that "popular sources" are not telling the truth? Or is it just harder to hide the truth when you can't use the lingo? :shrug:

If the 'lingo' means nothing to you, then you have an opportunity to learn. This is in your ability and your unwillingness to learn just shows you are afraid to learn something that might show your myths are wrong. the 'lingo' is used to be *more* precise with the language, not less. EVERY area of specialization requires specific terminology to function.

Humans are want to lead themselves into superstition because they have a problem sticking to the simple truth. They always seem to want to embellish things....but then so do evolutionary scientists. There is no way to prove what happened before humans were here to document anything. That is what 'prehistoric' means after all.

Pre-historic means there are no written records. But there is *plenty* of physical evidence that is often much more reliable than the written records.
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
When Darwin observed the species on the Galapagos Islands.....what did he see? Not one kind of creature morphing into another, but variety produced within various species. The finches were still finches, though adapted to a different environment to the mainland species......same with the iguanas and tortoises. The separation did not transform them into something else. Adaptation just made them slightly different to their mainland cousins.
You just keep repeating the same mistakes, over and over and over and over, no matter how many times different people try and correct you.

You keep making claims about "kinds", even though you can't even say what a "kind" is. You still think "finch" is a species. You still think "adaptation" is different than evolution, even though your own sources say they're the same.

That a person can't even incorporate the most basic of facts or correct the most simple of errors is a clear sign that they're terrified of reality.

I am glad that JW's have a more reasonable alternative to the flawed suggestion of evolution and creationism, because they can explain quite rationally how creation came about without casting Genesis or God into the realms of mythology.
Then by all means, please share this explanation for how everything came about.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Genetic barriers exist everywhere. Horses and donkeys produce mules that are invariably sterile. Donkeys and zebras have been crossed as have lions and tigers....their offspring do not reproduce. If that is not a barrier, I don't know what is.....?

Wrong barrier. We were discussing the one between what you call micro- and macro-evolution. You apparently will do anything to evade this topic. Your claim that no such a barrier exists cannot be taken seriously if you cannot suggest a mechanism, and your sincerity must be questioned if you won't even try.

Why won't you try?

When Darwin observed the species on the Galapagos Islands.....what did he see? Not one kind of creature morphing into another, but variety produced within various species

You still have no concept of what a species is. It is the lowest taxon in the taxonomical hierarchy. Finches, for example, are a family.

And the world has not improved in the slightest since we first discussed it. Come to think of it....the world has never improved when you consider that for every good thing they produce, there are a hundred things that are detrimental, either to human life directly or by messing up the environment.

"The world has never improved?" That's your religious training speaking. It has placed a permanent cloud of darkness over you.

"Happier"....hmmmmmm.....can you give me a definition of this "happiness"? Is it somewhere between the drug related crime and gangland murders or the the spiritually and morally deficient 'dole bludgers' who sponge off the system and have kids for the money the government gives them between jail sentences?

The cloud is storming now.

Are you aware of no goodness in the world?

I cannot understand your optimism.....it appears to be selective blindness at its best

I say that it's the other way around - that you are the one blinded by a pessimistic ideology and a faith based confirmation bias. How can we decide who is more correct?

If I'm correct - that the world is basically a good and safe place, but that you don't know it - we should see both of us having lives that are basically good and safe, but only you being pessimistic.

If you're correct, I'm naive for living in a Mad Max world without realizing it, have been exposed to great danger for decades now unaware, have somehow not only survived, but thrived, and have been happy without a reason.

My life is good, happy, and safe, and has been for decades (my youth was a little bumpy). I go out the door daily without a gun and return home alive every time. I am surrounded by beauty and friendly people going about their lives, apparently happy people judging by their demeanor and what I know about their existence. None of them report the bleak existence that you perceive life to be.

But how is your life, really? How often are you besieged? Do you love your life - your husband, children, friends, and usual activities - or are you miserable?

You are not being asked to share personal information, just whether you like your life or not. If you do, you might consider that I am more correct about our world than you.

I'd ask you how I can help you to see that, but I understand what I am up against: Faith. I have nothing to offer but reason and evidence, and I understand that those are impotent against faith. Faith immunizes you against inconvenient and contradictory outside information.
 
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It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
How many science students treat evolution as a suggestion?

The theory? All of the smart ones. They understand that scientific theories will always remain unproven hypotheses.

Which means that nothing was a fact to begin with......why then is it taught as a fact to school children?

The theory? It isn't, or shouldn't be. The proper way to teach it is to present the theory and the supporting evidence, and let those speak for themselves. There is no reason to tell children to believe the scientists, although there are good reasons to do so that they should also know, nor to even ask them if they believe those scientists. A proper teacher's role is to determine if the students have learned what is believed, not whether they believe it.

If you had real proof, then the language of suggestion would be unnecessary.

Still with proof? You undermine yourself by making the mistakes over and over again.

Have I explained the concept of ethos to you in the area of argumentation? A source is judged apart from her message according to how she is perceived by her audience. It's a combination of perceptions such as, Is she knowledgeable about that which speaks? Is she fair? Does she have any unstated purpose? Is she polite? Can she be trusted? - in short, her character, credibility, and motivations. This is all separate from the argument or message itself.

Your character is not in question. I think that you are a good, well-meaning person.

Your motivation is not suspect, either. Once again, I think that you are doing what you consider to be a good thing.

But your credibility is shot. There is no reason to take any of your claims or judgments seriously, and never will be until you remove the errors such as those about expecting proof of theories or finding fault with the tentative language of science, which your audience considers a virtue.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The fossils have no voice unless scientists give them one.

They speak to millions.

When you speak of "evidence", you have to understand that we believers in a Creator have just as much real evidence as you do. We can make suggestions and offer conjecture and say "God did it" just as easily as scientists say "natural selection did it".

Once again, your credibility is shot. Nobody familiar with your lack of scientific expertise or your ability to recognize or evaluate evidence reads those words and gives them credence.

Does that matter to you at all? If not, continue as before. If so, try to assimilate what others have this far tried in vain to teach you. You don't even have to believe it. See if you can remember it enough to show evidence of being able to learn, a skill without which, those who consider learning a virtue will not take you seriously.

"We're not two sides of the same coin, and you don't get to put your unreason up on the same shelf with my reason. Your stuff has to go over there, on the shelf with Zeus and Thor and the Kraken, with the stuff that is not evidence-based, stuff that religious people never change their mind about, no matter what happens ... I'm open to anything for which there's evidence. Show me a god, and I will believe in him. If Jesus Christ comes down from the sky during the halftime show of this Sunday's Super Bowl and turns all the nachos into loaves and fishes, well, I'll think ... "Oh, look at that. I was wrong. There he is. My bad. Praise the Lord." - Bill Maher

Humans are want to lead themselves into superstition because they have a problem sticking to the simple truth. They always seem to want to embellish things

We're well aware of that.
 
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