• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

How Speciation Happens (yes it does)

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
It has been claimed by some evolution deniers here that the science of genetics provides no known mechanism for speciation. Here I will refute this claim by providing one out of many many genetic mechanisms by which speciation happens.
For living sexually reproducing species, reproductive barriers that prevent males and females from mating and producing viable offspring is a good measure for distinguishing species. Two groups of organisms retain their distinctive biological traits if hybrid sex has low rates of fertilization and/or hybrids have low fitness and die off.

In oceans many fish and invertebrates mate by external fertilization. That means that during breeding season they converge in certain places and discharge their eggs and seen in the water where they freely mix and fertilize. In coral reefs, many similar kinds of mollusc, sea urchins etc live together and retain their distinctiveness despite the fact that various group's semen and eggs are all floating in the same medium. So the scientific question is, how does this happen.

So here is a general mechanism.

The egg cells have surface that have receptor proteins. The set of proteins that are found in one species is different from those found in similar but different species. The male gamete of the compatible species has detector proteins on their surfaces that selective identify a certain set of egg receptor proteins, and when detected, the male gamete swim towards the egg cells. If the male and female receptors are compatible enough, the two cells are able to bind on the surface. Afterwards, the male sex cell releases a chemical that dissolves a small section of the female egg cell wall so that it's contents can enter. Then fertilization can occur.

It is found that for very similar species of sea urchins or molluscs, it's the receptor proteins that are most different making it more difficult for the male gamete of one species to lock onto the female gamete of another. The rest of the DNA is sufficiently compatible that if such a locking on were to occur, successful fertilization would have occurred (verified in lab). Thus the divergence of receptor proteins, or specifically the divergence of genes coding for these proteins in males and females, is an isolation mechanism for speciation in these groups of marine invertebrates.

Now, let's first look at evidence that the genes that code for these surface protein do indeed diverge by selection. Consider the females of two closely related species of mollusc. Both have genes that code for slightly different variations of receptor proteins on their surface, coming from the same protein family but having somewhat different structure. Because these genes are doing the same thing for these two species and making similar types of proteins being expressed in the same way, these genes are called homologous to one another. Each of these similar proteins are made of chains of amino acids, and since the proteins are similar, many of the amino acids are the same, but a few key ones are different.... and these stretches of different amino acids are caused by DNA letter triplets that differ from each other in the females of the species. Since the genes are few, scientists have looked at these genes and quantified the amount of such divergent codons (a DNA letter triplet) in the females of these related species.

So we know that these proteins diverge and we know that the codons that cause them to diverge. But why would we think that this is caused by natural selection. After all, changes due to mutations that flip DNA letters happen all the time and such changes would naturally accumulate causing these proteins to alter over the generations without any selection. Why would we think that due to the impact of natural environment, some of these variations are being preferentially selected for and other variants selected against as some have greater reproductive success than others?

Well, it turns out that there is an easy way to check this. 4 dna letters in pairs of three make 64 possible combinations. But life has only 24 amino acids to code. Thus many of the amino acids are coded by 2 or more different codons triplets. So those mutations that change a codons to one of its synonyms do not change the amino acid, has no impact on the protein and makes no difference to the cell whatsoever. They are called synonymous mutations. The others that do change the amino acid are called non_synonymous mutations.


Now in a DNA, A can shift to G and C to T and vice versa. Of the codons in a gene, one can therefore calculate what fraction of possible letter changes will be synonymous and what fraction nonsynonymous. Then one can calculate what fraction of the actual observed changes are synonymous or nonsynonymous.

The ratio of the actual number of non_synonymous mutations per nonsynonymous site vs the actual no of synonymous mutations per synonymous site is called the dN/Ds ratio. For homologous genes for two species
If dN/Ds = 1 then redundant mutations have occurred at the same rate as divergent mutations and the gene or its protein are not under selection pressure.

If dN/Ds > 1 then divergent mutations that change protein sequence are being actively selected for. New protein structures are arising that improve fitness and these are being favored by natural selection. This is called directional selection.

If dN/dS <1 then divergent mutations are being actively selected against. The gene and its protein has near maximal fitness and any change reduces fitness and being selected against. This is called purifying selection.

When this ratio is calculated for the genes that code for these surface proteins of closely related species, scientists see that they have dN/dS ratios quite higher than 1. This shows that selection is indeed operating and it is driving these protein sequences further apart by directional selection. The effect of this is the growth of barriers for gene flow, increasing reproductive isolation and speciation.

Thus scientists have demonstrated the mechanism of speciation for these invertebrate groups.

In the next post I will post research links and also the reason why selection is diversifying these protein receptors causing species to split.

Questions.?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
After reading all that, you know the most amazing thing of all, is that you believe such complex mechanisms just accidentally came together with no intelligent direction at all. To assume that no intelligence was necessary to put those mechanisms in place, reveals a lack of intelligent assessment IMO.

It looks to me as if there is a choice between parents going on here...."Mother Nature"....or "Our Father in heaven". :confused:
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
After reading all that, you know the most amazing thing of all, is that you believe such complex mechanisms just accidentally came together with no intelligent direction at all. To assume that no intelligence was necessary to put those mechanisms in place, reveals a lack of intelligent assessment IMO.

It looks to me as if there is a choice between parents going on here...."Mother Nature"....or "Our Father in heaven". :confused:

Problem here, nothing in previous post proposes anything 'accidental,' and of course, by definition nothing that happens by the laws of nature is accidental, happens randomly nor by chance.

accident - an event that happens by chance or that is without apparent or deliberate cause.

All the events of described in the initial post as mechanisms of speciation are based on sound biochemistry and laws of nature, variations in the process are not accidental or by chance, they have fractal patterns, which can only have alternate outcomes within the laws of nature.

If you truly wish to rebut this argument you are going to have to approach from a scientific perspective and not assertions from ignorance.
 
Last edited:

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
by definition nothing that happens by the laws of nature is accidental, happens randomly nor by chance.

Laws require some elements.....firstly, a purpose for the law, then someone to formulate the law according to that purpose, and lastly a law enforcer to deliver consequences for not adhering to it.....yet none of the "laws of nature" require any of them, even though the requirements are the same. How odd. :confused:

If you truly wish to rebut this argument you are going to have to approach from a scientific perspective and not assertions from ignorance.

I was not aware that I was rebutting the argument at all....I was simply stating that to imagine such an extremely complex scenario had just arranged itself with no intelligent direction is extremely difficult for me to accept.

Every complex thing I use in my life was designed and assembled by an intelligent mind...even a simple thing like a mousetrap was designed by someone. But, unless those things are assembled in a specific order by someone who knew what they were doing, even a simple object would not serve its purpose. That obviously applies to everything.....but evolution. :rolleyes:

You are free to accept whatever explanation you like, as is the OP......I don't personally need science to explain creation. I have a Creator who does a good job of that....with no science degree required. :D All we need are sight, hearing, taste smell and touch...and a central system to intelligently process all of that information. The conclusions reached move many of us to praise the one responsible for all that our senses take in. You can pretend he doesn't exist...it makes no difference to him at all. He doesn't need us...we need him.
 
Last edited:

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Laws require some elements.....firstly, a purpose for the law, then someone to formulate the law according to that purpose, and lastly a law enforcer to deliver consequences for not adhering to it.....yet none of the "laws of nature" require any of them, even though the requirements are the same. How odd. :confused:

No, there is no objective evidence that Laws of Nature require 'some elements?' nor 'someone to formulate the law?.' That is why none of the Laws of Nature do not require anything that does not represent objective evidence.

Requiring 'someone to formulate the law?' is a Theist assumption that an anthropomorphic God, which is beyond the scope of Methodological Naturalism.

I was not aware that I was rebutting the argument at all....I was simply stating that to imagine such an extremely complex scenario had just arranged itself with no intelligent direction is extremely difficult for me to accept.

What you 'imagine such an extremely complex scenario had just arranged itself with no intelligent direction is extremely difficult for me to accept.' does not represent a coherent argument against evolution. It is the unfounded Theistic assumption of Intelligent Design which has failed to ever propose a theory nor hypothesis that con be falsified by scientific methods.

Every complex thing I use in my life was designed and assembled by an intelligent mind...even a simple thing like a mousetrap was designed by someone. But, unless those things are assembled in a specific order by someone who knew what they were doing, even a simple object would not serve its purpose. That obviously applies to everything.....but evolution. :rolleyes:

No it obviously does not apply to evolution, which is not a human designed and engineered product. If God exists, which I believe God does, God is not an engineer, god is Creator beyond human comprehension.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Problem here, nothing in previous post proposes anything 'accidental,' and of course, by definition nothing that happens by the laws of nature is accidental, happens randomly nor by chance.

accident - an event that happens by chance or that is without apparent or deliberate cause.

All the events of described in the initial post as mechanisms of speciation are based on sound biochemistry and laws of nature, variations in the process are not accidental or by chance, they have fractal pattern, which can only have alternate outcomes within the laws of nature.

If you truly wish to rebut this argument you are going to have to approach from a scientific perspective and not assertions from ignorance.
"Accident" is one of those terms creationists keep close at hand when they have nothing of significance to add to a discussion. It's like "missing link" and "only a theory."

Laws require some elements.....firstly, a purpose for the law, then someone to formulate the law according to that purpose, and lastly a law enforcer to deliver consequences for not adhering to it.....yet none of the "laws of nature" require any of them, even though the requirements are the same. How odd.
Boy, it's just as if you knew what you're talking about. Take a breath and reread what you just wrote---slowly. . . . . . . . . . . . see how silly it is?


Maybe not. :shrug: ........................................................... Oh well.:(

.
 
Last edited:

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Some evidence of this kind of directional selection in invertebrate sperm and egg proteins.
Source Paper:-
Speciation and the evolution of gamete recognition genes: pattern and process (Palumbi, 2009)



Abalone Molluscs
In abalone, a system exists in which a protein called lysin on the sperm interacts with an egg protein named VERL to form a pore in the chorion surrounding the egg and allow sperm entry.
One of the strongest signals of positive selection in any protein occurs in the lysin gene of abalone (Lee et al., 1995; Swanson and Vacquier, 2002a, 2002b). In comparisons of this protein, amino-acid replacements occur much more commonly than silent substitutions, calculated on a site-by-site basis. Such a signal, called a high Dn/Ds ratio has been generally taken as a signal of natural selection for amino-acid variation, and can be seen between or within species (Hughes and Nei, 1988, 1989). Positive selection generates rapid divergence of proteins at the amino-acid level, and probably results in more rapid functional differentiation of gamete proteins in diverging species. Lysins in mussels and turban snails also evolve rapidly with high Dn/Ds values (Hellberg et al., 2000; Riginos et al., 2006).

Sea Urchins:-
In sea urchins, sperm are activated by elements of the carbohydrate coat surrounding the eggs (called the jelly coat) and in some cases fertilization between species is inhibited by low activation (Biermann et al., 2004). In most cases, however, fertilization is inhibited by failure of the binding protein (called bindin) on the sperm to attach to a sperm receptor on the egg (Metz and Palumbi, 1996).
In sea urchins, molecular evolution of the protein bindin, which attaches sperm to eggs, also occurs through positive selection, primarily in the first exon of the functional gene region (Metz and Palumbi, 1996) as well as through insertion and deletion of repetitive amino-acid motifs in exons one and two (Biermann, 1998; Debenham et al., 2000). However, these patterns do not occur among all sea urchin species, and seem to be strongest in genera that show large numbers of sympatric species pairs (i.e. species that are found in same location and environment and whose sperms and eggs may interfere with each other being released at the same time in the water) (Metz et al., 1998; Palumbi and Lessios, 2005; Lessios, 2007).
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
No, there is no objective evidence that Laws of Nature require 'some elements?' nor 'someone to formulate the law?.' That is why none of the Laws of Nature do not require anything that does not represent objective evidence.

There are many laws operating in the universe and on earth without which we would be in all sorts of trouble.

Take gravity for example.....

"Gravity is a very important force. Every object in space exerts a gravitational pull on every other, and so gravity influences the paths taken by everything traveling through space. It is the glue that holds together entire galaxies. It keeps planets in orbit."

www.qrg.northwestern.edu/projects/vss/docs/space-environment/zoom-grav.html

"So what do we know about gravity? We know that it causes any two objects in the universe to be drawn to one another. We know that gravity assisted in forming the universe, that it keeps the moon in orbit around the Earth, and that it can be harnessed for more mundane applications like gravity-powered motors or gravity-powered lamps.

As for the science behind the action, we know that Isaac Newton defined gravity as a force -- one that attracts all objects to all other objects. We know that Albert Einstein said gravity is a result of the curvature of space-time. These two theories are the most common and widely held (if somewhat incomplete) explanations of gravity."


How does gravity work?

Yet we can test the existence of gravity every day, just by walking around or knocking a book off a table. No one can question the existence of gravity because its influence is inextricably tied up with everything we do. We can't see it or feel it physically, but we can see and experience the results of it. I believe it is the same with the Creator. He is described in the Bible as a "spirit". What does science know about the invisible realm? Unless it can be measured using the crude methods of man....not much really. It cannot state categorically that it is impossible for a Creator to exist...only that they cannot test for his existence, so they choose to deny him.

Requiring 'someone to formulate the law?' is a Theist assumption that an anthropomorphic God, which is beyond the scope of Methodological Naturalism.

If I had a choice between what I see with my own eyes and experience in my own body on a daily basis....and "the scope of Methodological Naturalism" formulated by flawed human beings with limited knowledge...I know which one I would choose.

I see in nature a kind of wisdom that could not possibly be orchestrated by blind evolution.
How do squirrels and other creatures know that they need to collect food for the winter?
How do bears know that it is beneficial for them to hibernate when not many other creatures do?
How can birds build nests, exclusive and identical to their species, when they have never learned how to construct one from their parents?
How do butterflies, birds and marine creatures know how to migrate thousands of miles without navigation equipment?

Instinct is programmed wisdom. The creatures who operate by instinct do not know why they do these things. It is not a conscious decision on their part. Yet the performance of this programming is vital to their survival. They are clearly designed that way.

For a program to operate on a computer, someone first has to formulate it, then work out a way to implement it into an already working system. What program do you use that was not created by someone with intelligence?

What you 'imagine such an extremely complex scenario had just arranged itself with no intelligent direction is extremely difficult for me to accept.' does not represent a coherent argument against evolution. It is the unfounded Theistic assumption of Intelligent Design which has failed to ever propose a theory nor hypothesis that con be falsified by scientific methods.

You really think that the existence of God and his creative works need to be proven by man's limited "scientific" methods? That just makes me laugh. What kind of person who is a believer in the most powerful entity in existence, takes man's word over God's for anything? It appears as if science has become your religion and the scientists your gods.They apparently dictate your beliefs rather than God himself.

No it obviously does not apply to evolution, which is not a human designed and engineered product. If God exists, which I believe God does, God is not an engineer, god is Creator beyond human comprehension.

You are wrong in this statement....evolution is most definitely a "a human designed and engineered product"...it is entirely a relatively recent, man-made invention supported by a very flimsy framework dressed up to look like it has substance.

The Creator is the ultimate engineer and the greatest scientist in existence. He reveals himself to those who seek him and hides himself from those who don't. He has revealed himself, his intentions and his requirements in one book. It contains all we need to prepare ourselves for what is coming. This world is in its death throes and many people are getting quite agitated about what the the future might hold. The Bible tells us what to expect....and what the final outcome will be. I trust that more than I trust the 'wisdom' of man.

To profess to believe in God and then place human limitations on him is a little foolish to my way of thinking.
 

CogentPhilosopher

Philosophy Student
After reading all that, you know the most amazing thing of all, is that you believe such complex mechanisms just accidentally came together with no intelligent direction at all. To assume that no intelligence was necessary to put those mechanisms in place, reveals a lack of intelligent assessment IMO.

It looks to me as if there is a choice between parents going on here...."Mother Nature"....or "Our Father in heaven". :confused:

The most sad part is that you think that in our vast universe complex events can never, has never, and could never occur unless your god did it.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
There are many laws operating in the universe and on earth without which we would be in all sorts of trouble.

The universe would not exist. The Natural Laws exist, therefore our universe exists.

Take gravity for example.....

"Gravity is a very important force. Every object in space exerts a gravitational pull on every other, and so gravity influences the paths taken by everything traveling through space. It is the glue that holds together entire galaxies. It keeps planets in orbit."

www.qrg.northwestern.edu/projects/vss/docs/space-environment/zoom-grav.html

"So what do we know about gravity? We know that it causes any two objects in the universe to be drawn to one another. We know that gravity assisted in forming the universe, that it keeps the moon in orbit around the Earth, and that it can be harnessed for more mundane applications like gravity-powered motors or gravity-powered lamps.

I will have to go to so what?!?!?!? Gravity exists, and yes it is possible to harness gravity.

As for the science behind the action, we know that Isaac Newton defined gravity as a force -- one that attracts all objects to all other objects. We know that Albert Einstein said gravity is a result of the curvature of space-time. These two theories are the most common and widely held (if somewhat incomplete) explanations of gravity."
How does gravity work?

Yet we can test the existence of gravity every day, just by walking around or knocking a book off a table. No one can question the existence of gravity because its influence is inextricably tied up with everything we do. We can't see it or feel it physically, but we can see and experience the results of it. I believe it is the same with the Creator. He is described in the Bible as a "spirit". What does science know about the invisible realm? Unless it can be measured using the crude methods of man....not much really. It cannot state categorically that it is impossible for a Creator to exist...only that they cannot test for his existence, so they choose to deny him.

Science is not behind anything, because science is simply descriptive of the nature of our physical existence by Methodological Naturalism. It is true we do not at present know everything about 'gravity,' but we do have a natural explanation of the nature of gravity, Arguing from the 'fallacy ignorance that science' does not 'know some things,' does not present a coherent argument for your case.


If I had a choice between what I see with my own eyes and experience in my own body on a daily basis....and "the scope of Methodological Naturalism" formulated by flawed human beings with limited knowledge...I know which one I would choose.

It should not be a hard choice, because Methodological Naturalism is based on the objective evidence of what one sees with ones own eyes and experience in one's own body on a daily basis is the basis of Methodological Naturalism. It is not a case of 'one fallible human being like yourself. It is product of hundreds of years of research by hundreds of thousands of scientists.

I see in nature a kind of wisdom that could not possibly be orchestrated by blind evolution.
How do squirrels and other creatures know that they need to collect food for the winter?
How do bears know that it is beneficial for them to hibernate when not many other creatures do?
How can birds build nests, exclusive and identical to their species, when they have never learned how to construct one from their parents?
How do butterflies, birds and marine creatures know how to migrate thousands of miles without navigation equipment?

The objective evidence indicates evolution

Instinct is programmed wisdom. The creatures who operate by instinct do not know why they do these things. It is not a conscious decision on their part. Yet the performance of this programming is vital to their survival. They are clearly designed that way.

We are not programmed robots. No there is no objective verifiable evidence that justifies any form of Intelligent Design (ID).

For a program to operate on a computer, someone first has to formulate it, then work out a way to implement it into an already working system. What program do you use that was not created by someone with intelligence?
Again, we are not programmed automatons developed by an engineer. We are fallible humans, and again. if God exists God is a Creator, and not an engineer.

You really think that the existence of God and his creative works need to be proven by man's limited "scientific" methods? That just makes me laugh.
Then laugh as long and as much as makes you happy. Science does not prove anything. Methodological Naturalism falsifies scientific theories and hypothesis based on objective verifiable evidence. So far you have offered only assertions of belief and appeals to the fallacy of questionable appeals to ignorance, and yes, blind belief without evidence.

. . . what kind of person who is a believer in the most powerful entity in existence, takes man's word over God's for anything?
This is the reason I will not take your word, based on ancient Babylonian mythology in Genesis that you represent what God says.

It appears as if science has become your religion and the scientists your gods.They apparently dictate your beliefs rather than God himself.

That represents a blind unfounded assertion on your part,based on an emotional assertion. Science is not my God. I am a Baha'i who believes in God. I am thankful that I believe in God as a Creator and not an engineer based on ancient mythology, and of course I will not make unfounded emotional blind assertions that I 'KNOW' how God Created our universe, solar system, earth and of course life and humanity.

You are wrong in this statement....evolution is most definitely a "a human designed and engineered product"...

I made no such claim, you are misrepresenting me, Please quote me properly.
 
Last edited:

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Some evidence of this kind of directional selection in invertebrate sperm and egg proteins.
Source Paper:-
Speciation and the evolution of gamete recognition genes: pattern and process (Palumbi, 2009)



Abalone Molluscs
In abalone, a system exists in which a protein called lysin on the sperm interacts with an egg protein named VERL to form a pore in the chorion surrounding the egg and allow sperm entry.
One of the strongest signals of positive selection in any protein occurs in the lysin gene of abalone (Lee et al., 1995; Swanson and Vacquier, 2002a, 2002b). In comparisons of this protein, amino-acid replacements occur much more commonly than silent substitutions, calculated on a site-by-site basis. Such a signal, called a high Dn/Ds ratio has been generally taken as a signal of natural selection for amino-acid variation, and can be seen between or within species (Hughes and Nei, 1988, 1989). Positive selection generates rapid divergence of proteins at the amino-acid level, and probably results in more rapid functional differentiation of gamete proteins in diverging species. Lysins in mussels and turban snails also evolve rapidly with high Dn/Ds values (Hellberg et al., 2000; Riginos et al., 2006).

Sea Urchins:-
In sea urchins, sperm are activated by elements of the carbohydrate coat surrounding the eggs (called the jelly coat) and in some cases fertilization between species is inhibited by low activation (Biermann et al., 2004). In most cases, however, fertilization is inhibited by failure of the binding protein (called bindin) on the sperm to attach to a sperm receptor on the egg (Metz and Palumbi, 1996).
In sea urchins, molecular evolution of the protein bindin, which attaches sperm to eggs, also occurs through positive selection, primarily in the first exon of the functional gene region (Metz and Palumbi, 1996) as well as through insertion and deletion of repetitive amino-acid motifs in exons one and two (Biermann, 1998; Debenham et al., 2000). However, these patterns do not occur among all sea urchin species, and seem to be strongest in genera that show large numbers of sympatric species pairs (i.e. species that are found in same location and environment and whose sperms and eggs may interfere with each other being released at the same time in the water) (Metz et al., 1998; Palumbi and Lessios, 2005; Lessios, 2007).

The next question is, why does natural selection act in a way that gamete recognition and binding proteins diversify as the high dN/dS ratio shows?
Most of the mollusc and sea urchin species live in relatively shallow waters. Thus when they collectively release sperm and egg in the water we have a situation where:-
1) there is a high density of sperms and eggs per unit volume of water

2) Males release far more smaller sperm cells than females release bigger egg cells. Sperm to egg count may be 1000:1 or even 10000:1.

3)Thus individual sperm cells are under intense competition with other sperm of other individuals to detect, bind and unite with an egg cell before others do. On average only 0.1% to 0.01% of sperms are successful. So any Mutation in sperm's detection and binding proteins that improves these odds will be selected for through greater fertilization success and spread.

4) The egg cells however have different concerns. They can bump into hundreds or thousands of compatible sperms and hence for them, quick detection and binding has no selective advantage. In fact their main danger is POLYSPERMY, when two or more sperms bind with the same egg and enter inside simultaneously. POLYSPERMY is invariably lethal to an egg. So for an egg it is vital to slow down the rates of binding and dissolution of cell walls with sperms, so that despite hundreds of collisions one and only sperm on average can gain access and fertilize an egg cell. These facts have been demonstrated in the lab, with egg cells with high sperm affinity surviving and fertilizing only at one-fifth the rates of female egg cells with low sperm affinity.

5) Thus for these externally fertilized species, we have a self perpetuating arms race (technically called frequency dependant selection) where new mutations in female egg receptors that decrease sperm affinity are selected for and spread. But this decreases the fitness of sperms who then are under adverse selection pressure. Then, if a mutation arises that increases the sperm's ability to fertilize, this rapidly spreads through the population. But now the ball is back on the female egg's court and the cycle repeats. Thus continuous self-reinforcing directional selection causes both the sperm and egg receptors to relentlessly diversify.

7)This leads populations that have been geologically or ecologically isolated (separate coral reefs around neighboring but different islands) to quickly separate out into different clusters of egg-sperm receptors that have their own protein groups responding to each other in an iterative loop and no longer compatible with members of the other group. This is how speciation occurs for these groups of organism.

8) A look at the genes responsible for surface proteins of both sperm and egg show scores and scores of duplicated codons and the genes themselves have multiple copies. I have already shown in a separate thread how duplication and variations between the duplicates is the prime mechanism by which new genes arise. The structure of the genes and binding proteins show this to be happening frequently for these, consistent with high levels of diversifying evolution predicted above.

The paper quoted in the earlier post provides all the observations and experiments necessary for making the above eight points. I hope this provides a complete, evidence based and rational picture of how speciation occurs, why speciation occurs and the mechanisms underlying the how and the why.... at least for marine invertebrates. Of course coral reefs are critically endangered global biodiversity hotspots, and these kinds of studies provide insights regarding how such diversity arose and how to minimize their rapid degradation through conservation and recovery efforts.

Questions? Objections?
Meandering rants about how none of this refutes God will be ignored as not relevant to thread topic.

People are given unrestricted license to copy paste any of my posts here in this thread everytime a certain individual who refuses to click links asks for copy paste evidence.

Njoy. :)
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
The most sad part is that you think that in our vast universe complex events can never, has never, and could never occur unless your god did it.
Interestingly, former atheist Antony Flew came to that same conclusion! Based on integrated complexity needing an Intelligent Source!
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
The most sad part is that you think that in our vast universe complex events can never, has never, and could never occur unless your god did it.

Well, I could say the same thing about you, only in reverse. Its sad that you think that the whole universe just 'accidentally' came into existence at some point in the dim, dark past, and this one tiny speck in one small portion of one mighty galaxy, just happened to be the "Goldilocks" planet and life somehow just popped into existence one day, all by itself....? :rolleyes:

If you were out hiking in the woods and you came upon a well constructed house that had a welcome sign on the door that said "Come on in, make yourself at home....help yourself to what is in the fridge and the pantry. No charge".....what would you do? You'd go inside and check it out wouldn't you?

Once inside you see a clean, tastefully decorated home with solar electricity, heating, plumbing and lighting, along with comfortable furniture and plush carpet. The pantry and the fridge are fully stocked with food and drink, and there is another small sign on the fridge door that says "please leave the house as you found it"...which I assume you would gladly do in appreciation?

Now tell me if you would assume that the house just appeared the way you found it? Would you think it had no architect, no builder, no plumber or electrician, and no one to thank for being so generous with the food supply?

That "house" is planet Earth....with all the things necessary to not only sustain life with an abundance of food and water, but with many things that were designed to make your stay really enjoyable. It was gifted to mankind in exchange for being its caretaker and zoo keeper. But we haven't exactly left the place as we found it....have we? :(

People can choose to believe that all things just "happened" without any intelligent direction, but I believe that they would have to be blind or stupid to do that. :confused: Just my opinion.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Take a breath and reread what you just wrote---slowly.

Yeah you're right...I could have worded that a bit better.....

How about this....?

Laws require some elements.....firstly, a purpose for the law, then someone to formulate the law according to that purpose, and lastly a law enforcer to deliver consequences for not adhering to it.....yet none of the "laws of nature" require any of those, according to evolutionists, even though the requirements of the law listed above remain the same, evolutionists deem them to be just accidents of nature. How odd.

Better? :D
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
The objective evidence indicates evolution

There is no such thing as "objective evidence" in evolution. Science is tied up with evolution on a very emotional level, which is demonstrated very clearly when anyone dares to question the validity of what they hold sacred.
ranting.gif


there is no objective verifiable evidence that justifies any form of Intelligent Design (ID).

Since emotion is tied up inextricably with faith and worship, you are correct....there is no 'scientific' way to prove that God exists or that he is the Creative Designer of all things. But he did leave us his written word.....just one book, not many....just one Christ, as the last prophet, who told us about the creation of the first humans.

Matthew 19:4-6:
"In reply he said: “Have you not read that the one who created them from the beginning made them male and female 5 and said: ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and his mother and will stick to his wife, and the two will be one flesh’? 6 So that they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has yoked together, let no man put apart.

we are not programmed automatons developed by an engineer. We are fallible humans, and again. if God exists God is a Creator, and not an engineer.

The word engineer (from the Latin ingeniator) is derived from the Latin words ingeniare ("to contrive, devise") and ingenium ("cleverness"). I believe that this designation fits what God did in his creative works. He not only cleverly engineered creation, but ingeniously designed and manufactured everything through the agency of his son. (Colossians 1:15-17)

Science does not prove anything.

Yes, I know.

So far you have offered only assertions of belief and appeals to the fallacy of questionable appeals to ignorance, and yes, blind belief without evidence.

From what I can see of the "evidence" presented by evolutionary science, "blind belief" is rife in the scientific community.
You all blindly accept what you are told in spite of the fact that there are no facts in science....because, as you said, "Science does not prove anything"......

This is the reason I will not take your word, based on ancient Babylonian mythology in Genesis that you represent what God says.

Who told you that Genesis was based on Babylonian myths? Either God authored his own word and we can believe all of it, or he didn't and we need to reject the whole thing. What kind of a God would fail to give his intelligent creation instructions? I will take God's word over the musings of fallible humans any day.

Science is not my God. I am a Baha'i who believes in God. I am thankful that I believe in God as a Creator and not an engineer based on ancient mythology, and of course I will not make unfounded emotional blind assertions that I 'KNOW' how God Created our universe, solar system, earth and of course life and humanity.

As far as I am aware, Baha'is seem to relegate God to a back seat if humans want to contradict him.

I am confident of my beliefs and I know the God I worship. I believe that soon all humans will have a personal encounter with the son of God. In his capacity as God's appointed judge, those who have relegated the Creator to either mythological status or who claim to believe in him whilst disobeying all that he taught through his Christ, are not going to find the encounter pleasant.
 

Kirran

Premium Member
I am confident of my beliefs and I know the God I worship. I believe that soon all humans will have a personal encounter with the son of God. In his capacity as God's appointed judge, those who have relegated the Creator to either mythological status or who claim to believe in him whilst disobeying all that he taught through his Christ, are not going to find the encounter pleasant.

I think we should take a moment to commend Deeje for their ability to state very strong opinions about things while still cleaving to RF rules regarding proselytising. Bravo, Deeje ;)
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Interestingly, former atheist Antony Flew came to that same conclusion! Based on integrated complexity needing an Intelligent Source!

Careful with the conclusion of Anthony Flew. He concluded that Deism was the best choice.

Science has gone far beyond any problem of complexity, and all the examples proposed by ID advocates for unexplainable complexity have been explained,
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
There is no such thing as "objective evidence" in evolution. Science is tied up with evolution on a very emotional level, which is demonstrated very clearly when anyone dares to question the validity of what they hold sacred.
ranting.gif




Since emotion is tied up inextricably with faith and worship, you are correct....there is no 'scientific' way to prove that God exists or that he is the Creative Designer of all things. But he did leave us his written word.....just one book, not many....just one Christ, as the last prophet, who told us about the creation of the first humans.

Matthew 19:4-6:
"In reply he said: “Have you not read that the one who created them from the beginning made them male and female 5 and said: ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and his mother and will stick to his wife, and the two will be one flesh’? 6 So that they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has yoked together, let no man put apart.



The word engineer (from the Latin ingeniator) is derived from the Latin words ingeniare ("to contrive, devise") and ingenium ("cleverness"). I believe that this designation fits what God did in his creative works. He not only cleverly engineered creation, but ingeniously designed and manufactured everything through the agency of his son. (Colossians 1:15-17)



Yes, I know.



From what I can see of the "evidence" presented by evolutionary science, "blind belief" is rife in the scientific community.
You all blindly accept what you are told in spite of the fact that there are no facts in science....because, as you said, "Science does not prove anything"......



Who told you that Genesis was based on Babylonian myths? Either God authored his own word and we can believe all of it, or he didn't and we need to reject the whole thing. What kind of a God would fail to give his intelligent creation instructions? I will take God's word over the musings of fallible humans any day.



As far as I am aware, Baha'is seem to relegate God to a back seat if humans want to contradict him.

I am confident of my beliefs and I know the God I worship. I believe that soon all humans will have a personal encounter with the son of God. In his capacity as God's appointed judge, those who have relegated the Creator to either mythological status or who claim to believe in him whilst disobeying all that he taught through his Christ, are not going to find the encounter pleasant.

You're swimming peanut butter, and I could not remotely respond to this incoherent rant.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Laws require some elements.....firstly, a purpose for the law, then someone to formulate the law according to that purpose, and lastly a law enforcer to deliver consequences for not adhering to it.....yet none of the "laws of nature" require any of them, even though the requirements are the same. How odd. :confused:

While these are required for human laws, things are quite different for natural laws. Ultimately, natural laws are simply descriptions about how things in the real world act. All that is required for the existence of natural laws is that things have properties and interact with other things in a regular manner. That does NOT require someone to state and enforce those patterns on intera And that the ction, nor for there to be a 'purpose' for such regularities.

Your mistake is a common one because of the terminology. But human laws and natural laws are quite different in their requirements.

I was not aware that I was rebutting the argument at all....I was simply stating that to imagine such an extremely complex scenario had just arranged itself with no intelligent direction is extremely difficult for me to accept.
OK, do you know that complexity can arise without intelligent intervention? That many dynamical systems show an increase of complexity naturally? And that the types of mathematical systems that describe what we know of the real world do, in fact, show such increase of complexity, even when viewed from a purely mathematical framework?

So, I understand that you have difficulty believing that the types of complexity we see around us can form naturally. But exactly how much have you looked into dynamical systems and how complexity can form in them?

Every complex thing I use in my life was designed and assembled by an intelligent mind...even a simple thing like a mousetrap was designed by someone. But, unless those things are assembled in a specific order by someone who knew what they were doing, even a simple object would not serve its purpose. That obviously applies to everything.....but evolution. :rolleyes:
Because you are limiting yourself to only human-made things in your initial analysis. Complexity can and does arise without human intervention. But you generalize from a few human-made items to the universe as a whole. I maintain that is a mistake.

You are free to accept whatever explanation you like, as is the OP......I don't personally need science to explain creation. I have a Creator who does a good job of that....with no science degree required.
Sorry, but you may have to study a little to understand how the universe really works. Why would you *expect* to be able to understand unless you study and study deeply? And while that require a formal science degree, it may well require that level of studying and comprehension.

All we need are sight, hearing, taste smell and touch...and a central system to intelligently process all of that information.
Which are exactly the beginning points of science. But science also realizes that the human senses are limited and often faulty. So we attempt to find more objective methods for learning about the world.

The conclusions reached move many of us to praise the one responsible for all that our senses take in. You can pretend he doesn't exist...it makes no difference to him at all. He doesn't need us...we need him.

So you claim. I disagree. We can, and do, learn about the world by looking at the world. We test our ideas and remain skeptical about general conclusions from limited data. We attempt to point out errors in our logic and alternative explanations at all stages. The problem is that the *original* hypothesis, at there is a creator that does everything, is one that fails to produce new understanding and further insights into what we actually observe.

And yes, you can continue to believe in a deity. For that matter, you can ignore all contrary evidence to anything you believe. But unless you can give good, objective evidence, there is no reason anyone else should take your views seriously.[/QUOTE]
 
Top