How can you tell the difference between a Prophet and false Prophet

[KnightOwl]

I downplay nationalism... alot... and would welcome a world currency and a more globalised world. Of course, I'm not discriminately intellectual enough to discern the subtle pros and cons about those things, but meh.

Welcome to Canada. Of course, we have our own set of problems, but Canada by official government is a secular governing body... it all occurred when the Catholic French and Protestant English grumbled together to somehow create this nation.

The only thing I would want a world government to do is secure the ability for people to freely migrate from one country to another.

We have a world currency... several in fact -- precious metals. Fiat currency helps make booms and busts become more exaggerated both in severity and length.

 

[BruceDLimber]

So how can you tell the difference between a Prophet and a false Prophet?

There are MANY tests and criteria!

Not every one will exhibit all of these, but by taking those present in aggregate, you can get a pretty good idea what's genuine and what isn't!

They include:

• the individuals's own life and the extent to which it's a perfect reflection of goodness
• the writings/books that individual produces, and how inspirational (or not) they are
• whether or not the resulting religion bears good "fruits" or not (see the list of these in Galatians)
• the prophecies from earlier religions that this person fuifills (how many and how well)
• what prophecies s/he personally makes and whether they are then proven correct
• whether or not the religion transforms the lives of its adherents for the better
• how long the religion endures e.g., centuries or millenia as contrasted with "flash in the pan" religions that disappear after a few years.

There are doubtless other criteria as well, but these should serve as a good starting point!

Peace,

Bruce

 

[England my lionheart]

Hardly. Care to explain how?

Theres no proof of the origin of the message and it carries a prejudice

 

[England my lionheart]

There are MANY tests and criteria!

Not every one will exhibit all of these, but by taking those present in aggregate, you can get a pretty good idea what's genuine and what isn't!

They include:

• the individuals's own life and the extent to which it's a perfect reflection of goodness
• the writings/books that individual produces, and how inspirational (or not) they are
• whether or not the resulting religion bears good "fruits" or not (see the list of these in Galatians)
• the prophecies from earlier religions that this person fuifills (how many and how well)
• what prophecies s/he personally makes and whether they are then proven correct
• whether or not the religion transforms the lives of its adherents for the better
• how long the religion endures e.g., centuries or millenia as contrasted with "flash in the pan" religions that disappear after a few years.

There are doubtless other criteria as well, but these should serve as a good starting point!

Peace,

Bruce

Hi Bruce,it may well be a starting point but unfortunately proves nothing

 

[England my lionheart]

7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

................................

So...if the teaching of the claimed prophet has endured to bringeth forth good fruit it is true/of God...if not- Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Well it looks like the fire will be burning for a very long time because theres an excess of bad fruit in the world,like i said,anyone can claim to be a Prophet or divine messenger.

 

[England my lionheart]

In any case, I could care less for your opinion on the validity of anything really, if the reality manifested in a person's life leads them to a cleaner, healthier self.

I would say good for them

Given that almost every spiritual philosophy has had bloodshed stained with it (which is seemingly the norm for humankind), there are positive things about Islam that you should be able to agree upon, such as the development of virtues, the praise for rationality and the intellect (Seek knowledge, even unto China), cleanliness and a high regard for family, etc.

Are you saying developed virtues

I really think that this back-and-forthing of how the existence or non-existence of God is somehow relevant on how we express and live our lives for others is moot. If you don't believe in the Islamic conception of God, fine. However, let's all try to say something positive about it instead for the sake of peace on both sides of the coin.

I like some of the art

There are many good things that Islam's influence offered the world, from sanitation, to hospitals, from libraries to universities, from philosophy to sciences and poetry, to art and architecture. Although the Islamic renaissance waned, those influences have lasted to this day!

I think the Greeks and Romans got there first,i do love the Al Hambra (spl) in Spain which is quite stunning

 

[Wombat]

Well it looks like the fire will be burning for a very long time....

Not at all...the fire flares up and consumes the work of the false prophet either within their lifetime or shortly after they plant their fruitless tree.
Usually within a couple of hundred years.

... because theres an excess of bad fruit in the world,like i said,anyone can claim to be a Prophet or divine messenger.

Ah huh...The world today is as full of Bagwans, Sai Baba's, Guru's, Prophets and Snake Oil salesmen as it ever was....There are >THOUSANDS< of them.

Now...here's the trick...go back sucessively- two hundred, three hundred, four-five and six hundred years (keep going if you like) and pause in each period and find the prophet/guru/charletan who still has followers today.

My bet is you will find only any one of three things-
1/The founder of an independent Major Living Faith (i.e. 'true prophet/messenger of God'- Moses, Jesus, Mohammed...)
or...
2/ A sect, branch or ofshoot of 1/
or...
A countless host of dead and fruitless prophetic teachings with no followers and nothing worth preserving..."hewn down, and cast into the fire" of history.

Curious to see what you come up with...given...like you said- "anyone can claim to be a Prophet or divine messenger" and thousands have done so...the law of averages is there ought to be >hundreds< with followers/movements still going.
(Remember...Start looking about two hundred years back...the tree needs time to be seen to grow and fruit or be hewn down ;-)

 

[InvestigateTruth]

One of the main proofs is that the true prophets are not learned people who had any formal religious and scientific education. But yet they have shown such a great knowledge. This is the proof that they were inspired by God.
The proof of the Sun, is the Sun itself. It is the source of light. It doesn't get it's light from anywhere else.

For that we need to investigate well about their lives.

Look at the major Messengers and you will find a pattern that matches all of them.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

So how can you tell the difference between a Prophet and a false Prophet,the problem as i see it is proof which neither a Prophet or false Prophet can provide.

The real prophet is completely imaginary.

 

[England my lionheart]

Not at all...the fire flares up and consumes the work of the false prophet either within their lifetime or shortly after they plant their fruitless tree.
Usually within a couple of hundred years.
Ah huh...The world today is as full of Bagwans, Sai Baba's, Guru's, Prophets and Snake Oil salesmen as it ever was....There are >THOUSANDS< of them.

Exactly,anyone can be a Prophet

Now...here's the trick...go back sucessively- two hundred, three hundred, four-five and six hundred years (keep going if you like) and pause in each period and find the prophet/guru/charletan who still has followers today.

My bet is you will find only any one of three things-
1/The founder of an independent Major Living Faith (i.e. 'true prophet/messenger of God'- Moses, Jesus, Mohammed...)
or...
2/ A sect, branch or ofshoot of 1/
or...
A countless host of dead and fruitless prophetic teachings with no followers and nothing worth preserving..."hewn down, and cast into the fire" of history.

I agree,a countless host of dead and fruitless prophesies

Curious to see what you come up with...given...like you said- "anyone can claim to be a Prophet or divine messenger" and thousands have done so...the law of averages is there ought to be >hundreds< with followers/movements still going.
(Remember...Start looking about two hundred years back...the tree needs time to be seen to grow and fruit or be hewn down ;-)

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad has Millions of of followers,does this make him false,really numbers of followers means zilch,what really matters is the source of the message and the one thing there is no proof of.

 

[England my lionheart]

One of the main proofs is that the true prophets are not learned people who had any formal religious and scientific education. But yet they have shown such a great knowledge. This is the proof that they were inspired by God.
The proof of the Sun, is the Sun itself. It is the source of light. It doesn't get it's light from anywhere else.

For that we need to investigate well about their lives.

Look at the major Messengers and you will find a pattern that matches all of them.

So you are saying Muhammed for example had absolutely no knowledge of Judaism

 

[InvestigateTruth]

So you are saying Muhammed for example had absolutely no knowledge of Judaism

I would say He had perfect knowledge of Judaism, but not by learning or research and studying. He was not a Scholar, clergy or a religious leader prior to His prophethood.

So, let's say if there is a man who is a very good scholar because he has been doing research and learning about religions and then all the sudden he claims he is chosen and inspired by God. Then, there is no evidence he was really inspired. He had just studied and learned in a school or under a scholar.

But if there is a man who has not studied religions or learned from anybody, but he just has the knowledge on his own, then this knowledge is intrinsic.

 

[Mellonhead]

I would say He had perfect knowledge of Judaism, but not by learning or research and studying. He was not a Scholar, clergy or a religious leader prior to His prophethood.

So, let's say if there is a man who is a very good scholar because he has been doing research and learning about religions and then all the sudden he claims he is chosen and inspired by God. Then, there is no evidence he was really inspired. He had just studied and learned in a school or under a scholar.

But if there is a man who has not studied religions or learned from anybody, but he just has the knowledge on his own, then this knowledge is intrinsic.

Then I would just study in secret, or even better yet, let people do the writing for me, claiming it to be my own and getting fame for it, paying off the writers to do more.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Then I would just study in secret, or even better yet, let people do the writing for me, claiming it to be my own and getting fame for it, paying off the writers to do more.

A good inversigator can find out if that's the case or not. Can s/he not?
We would need to read the history,the life and research well about that person who claims to be a prophet, then judge without bias.

 

[Mellonhead]

A good inversigator can find out if that's the case or not. Can s/he not?
We would need to read the history,the life and research well about that person who claims to be a prophet, then judge without bias.

No one judges without bias, when has this ever been done conclusively?

 

[Wombat]

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad ,.

There ya go! Just as I predicted. (Does that make me a prophet? ;-)

Ahmad founded the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community.... 2/ A sect, branch or ofshoot of 1/. ...Islam.

has Millions of of followers does this make him false,

Ahhhhh, no, Lionheart....You have it the wrong way round...if the movement has "Millions of of followers" it is alive and has borne fruit and is not "hewn down and cast on the fire". (I note you could not get past the modern era in your search for an example ;-)

...really numbers of followers means zilch what really matters is the source of the message and the one thing there is no proof of.

No, in determining "the source of the message" "numbers of followers means" a great deal....If there are some/any followers the thing is alive...if there are "zilch" followers the thing is dead and has been cast on the fire.

Your problem is that if you depart the modern era, go back 200+ years so as to see what happens to prophets/movements over time, you find -
...only any one of three things-
1/The founder of an independent Major Living Faith (i.e. 'true prophet/messenger of God'- Moses, Jesus, Mohammed...)
or...
2/ A sect, branch or ofshoot of 1/
or...
A countless host of dead and fruitless prophetic teachings with no followers and nothing worth preserving..."hewn down, and cast into the fire" of history.

All you could find (thus far) was an example of 2/ and that was in the modern era.

Care to try again?

 

[KnightOwl]

I think a read of Rushdie's "Satanic Verses" would be instructive.

 

[doppelganger]

Net revenue after expenses, but be careful to look for inappropriate ways of taking depreciation.

 

[no-body]

One of the main proofs is that the true prophets are not learned people who had any formal religious and scientific education. But yet they have shown such a great knowledge.

Sounds more like proof of a good con artist.

 

[Wombat]

If I am to conclude that the answer to this-

"There ya go! Just as I predicted. (Does that make me a prophet? ;-)"

is this-

Net revenue after expenses, but be careful to look for inappropriate ways of taking depreciation.

Then I warmly and sincerely "depreciate" the inability of anyone (thus far) to find a ‘prophet’ that does not fit the categories/criteria previously outlined-

...go back successively- two hundred, three hundred, four-five and six hundred years (keep going if you like) and pause in each period and find the prophet/guru/charlatan who still has followers today.

My bet is you will find only any one of three things-
1/The founder of an independent Major Living Faith (i.e. 'true prophet/messenger of God'- Moses, Jesus, Mohammed...)
or...
2/ A sect, branch or offshoot of 1/
or...
A countless host of dead and fruitless prophetic teachings with no followers and nothing worth preserving..."hewn down, and cast into the fire" of history.

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Kehlog Albran: The Profit