How can you tell God apart from Satan?

[ruffen]

And yet many religious people claim that we as humans must get our morals from God and use scripture to interpret "God's will" and enforce "God's morality" on other people.

If God's morality is of an entirely different type than human morality, why did God create us "in his image" to have our human morality that was different to the extent that we are disgusted by God's so-called morality?

And I would claim that my human morality is far superior to that of God if God is truly responsible for the suffering in the world.

 

[Pegg]

First of all, I don't believe in God, and I don't believe in Satan, so this is purely hypothetical and a question to those who believe.

If Satan exists, wouldn't he be the one tempting you with eternal good life in a very nice place? Wouldn't he be the one trying to win the "propaganda war" with the good God by having a Holy Book or Scripture or Bible or Quran or Torah written to tell people what they need to do in order to get to this nice place he promises us?

No he wouldnt because he's not interested in us getting anything good. He wants to see us disobey Gods laws. Thats his only objective. He knows that when we break Gods laws we become subject to death....and he also knows how it saddens God to see us suffer.

He is a 100% narcissistic individual.

If you were Satan and wanted to lure millions into worshipping you, wouldn't you claim to be God and warn about horrible punishments if people didn't follow your lead?

Gods laws promote morality and good conduct.... but the world has fully gone down the path of complete immorality. Satan promotes immorality, selfishness, hatred, sexual deviancy and such things

the world is completely awash with things satan promotes... very few actually follow Gods laws and apply them in life.

And if you feel the presence of God in your life or in your soul, how can you know that this is the real God and not "the deceiver" that Satan is?

Wouldn't the more "morally challenged" stories and passages and inconsistencies and logical fallacies in the scriptures be such a hint that if a supernatural being is behind it, it might not be a loving God but something far less pleasant?

there are only two paths in life.... if you are being motivated to pursue the path of righteousness and love, then you are most certainly experiencing Gods influence in your life. However, if your life is dominated by the pursue of immoral behaviors, then Satan is at the centre of your life whether you know it or not.

Satan doesnt promote good things.... he wants us to do bad. Thats how I know who is influencing me.

 

[Riverwolf]

Thanks for your inputs on this.

It seems the problem of evil has been solved. The problem states that if God is
1. all-knowing (knows about suffering)
2. all-good (wants to stop suffering)
3. all-powerful (able to stop suffering)

then why is there suffering?

It seems that point 2 is a non-starter then, as the One God is responsible for either creating Satan/The Devil if he exists, or even takes on that role himself.

But what then of all the talk about God's love for humanity and for each one of us? What about those who feel that God fills them with love?

If that same God is responsible for unspeakable pain and suffering (man-made as well as natural), and if even Heaven is quite reminiscent of Hell and God is more or less indistiguishable from the classical view of the Devil, then why worship that God?

My solution is polytheism; the problem of evil never existed for ancient pagans.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Honestly, that's partially why I'm a polytheistic pantheist rather than a Zoroastrian-type monotheist (that is, with a supernatural battle of good and evil.) I don't believe any of the Gods are entirely good, or entirely evil. Just like nature, the Gods can be beautiful and kind, but simultaneously harsh and unforgiving. And sometimes one will get bored and decide to troll someone.

Precisely. :yes:

The Gods are as multifaceted and complex as people are. Maybe even moreso.

 

[no-body]

No he wouldnt because he's not interested in us getting anything good. He wants to see us disobey Gods laws. Thats his only objective. He knows that when we break Gods laws we become subject to death....and he also knows how it saddens God to see us suffer.

He is a 100% narcissistic individual.



Gods laws promote morality and good conduct.... but the world has fully gone down the path of complete immorality. Satan promotes immorality, selfishness, hatred, sexual deviancy and such things

the world is completely awash with things satan promotes... very few actually follow Gods laws and apply them in life.



there are only two paths in life.... if you are being motivated to pursue the path of righteousness and love, then you are most certainly experiencing Gods influence in your life. However, if your life is dominated by the pursue of immoral behaviors, then Satan is at the centre of your life whether you know it or not.

Satan doesnt promote good things.... he wants us to do bad. Thats how I know who is influencing me.

That's only if you believe God's side of things. There's no book telling Satan's side of it.

 

[ruffen]

Precisely. :yes:

The Gods are as multifaceted and complex as people are. Maybe even moreso.

While I do not agree that any gods exist, I do agree that a belief in polytheism with multiple and diverse gods has less logical fallacies than the belief in one good God that rules the entire Universe.

 

[ruffen]

That's only if you believe God's side of things. There's no book telling Satan's side of it.

How can you know it's not the other way around? That the Bible or the Quran or the Torah or whatever text one believes in, is not the work of Satan, designed to lure us into child sacrifice, holy wars etc.? If you analyze the morality displayed by "God" in those scriptures, he seems to be very close to the concept of what Satan or The Devil would be like.

 

[Riverwolf]

If you analyze the morality displayed by "God" in those scriptures, he seems to be very close to the concept of what Satan or The Devil would be like.

Devil's advocate (appropriately enough. lol)

That's based on the modern conception of Satan/The Devil. That conception has changed quite a bit over the years, and would shift from region to region.

Nowadays we think of Satan in the same terms as a fantasy Dark Lord, much like Sauron, or as a charismatic but scamming businessman, much like the kind of person who, in the 1800s, sold rebranded whiskey as a cure for alcoholism. But these are modern conceptualizations; back in the day, as far as I can see, the Devil was pretty much a scapegoat for anything that was against God. Anyone who sided with the Devil, that is, against God's law, was probably not thought to be under the protection of God's law, and so was free game for violence, much like the Anglo-Saxon conception of the outlaw. ('Course I'm speaking from what little I see of historical Northwestern European Christianity, which doesn't reflect Christianity elsewhere, and certainly doesn't reflect Islam, the history and culture of which I know pretty much nothing.) In that sense, the "atrocities" in the Bible are perfectly in line with God, because they're committed under God's law.

 

[Akivah]

Given that you don't believe, is there any reason in particular you went with a Christian-centric POV?

These sorts of questions are nearly always written about the Christian beliefs. IMO, that's because a) there are more Christians than there are Jews and/or b) most people don't really know the beliefs of Judaism. They erroneously think its just the same as Christianity, but without the jesus.

 

[ruffen]

These sorts of questions are nearly always written about the Christian beliefs. IMO, that's because a) there are more Christians than there are Jews and/or b) most people don't really know the beliefs of Judaism. They erroneously think its just the same as Christianity, but without the jesus.

Or that one acknowledges the fact that one does not know enough about Judaism to claim much about it. That does not mean that one thinks Judaism is really that much different in its view of things, but just a general cautious approach to try not to post claims with little or no basis.

 

[BSM1]

God's the one wearing spats.

 

[ruffen]

No he wouldnt because he's not interested in us getting anything good. He wants to see us disobey Gods laws. Thats his only objective. He knows that when we break Gods laws we become subject to death....and he also knows how it saddens God to see us suffer.

He is a 100% narcissistic individual.



Gods laws promote morality and good conduct.... but the world has fully gone down the path of complete immorality. Satan promotes immorality, selfishness, hatred, sexual deviancy and such things

the world is completely awash with things satan promotes... very few actually follow Gods laws and apply them in life.



there are only two paths in life.... if you are being motivated to pursue the path of righteousness and love, then you are most certainly experiencing Gods influence in your life. However, if your life is dominated by the pursue of immoral behaviors, then Satan is at the centre of your life whether you know it or not.

Satan doesnt promote good things.... he wants us to do bad. Thats how I know who is influencing me.

Immoral behaviours? According to whom? God's laws?

The laws that say that if two persons of the same gender love each other, that's horribly bad, but in certain conditions genocide is good (if those you slaughter are for example kananites)?

Again, does this morality seem like it comes from a good being, or an evil one?

 

[Skyrim25]

Immoral behaviours? According to whom? God's laws?

The laws that say that if two persons of the same gender love each other, that's horribly bad, but in certain conditions genocide is good (if those you slaughter are for example kananites)?

Again, does this morality seem like it comes from a good being, or an evil one?

I agree...

I believe that Moses was WRONG about what the promise land was. It was ONLY Moses that ever said that the promise land was Canaan.

According to Jesus the Promise land is not Canaan at all but in fact it is in our hearts and not an actual land at all!

The Temple in Jerusalem was built on INNOCENT blood(Canaanites blood). It is said that all the Canaanites men, women and children were offered as a sacrifice to God in the Old Testament. With that said...What kind of Messiah claims the throne(something that the Messiah is supposed to do btw) in THAT temple made of innocent blood and call himself a righteous king/God/Messiah?

Jesus builds his own temple made of HIS own innocent blood in a righteous sacrifice instead of the sacrifices of others...This proves that Moses got the promise land wrong, other wise Jesus would have taken the throne as he was supposed to.

The throne he took was not the throne the Moses's people expected and nor was the temple what Moses's people expected when Jesus says that... HE HIMSELF... is the temple.

 

[LuisDantas]

One of the reasons why I believe the concept of God to be actually harmful to religion is the very ambiguity that makes this thread possible.

Far as I can tell, even theistic religions would be better off focusing their teachings on determining what relates to their sense of the sacred and how instead of encouraging projections and tribal attachments by using such a flawed concept as "God".

 

[Skyrim25]

One of the reasons why I believe the concept of God to be actually harmful to religion is the very ambiguity that makes this thread possible.

Far as I can tell, even theistic religions would be better off focusing their teachings on determining what relates to their sense of the sacred and how instead of encouraging projections and tribal attachments by using such a flawed concept as "God".

I agree with this^

Instead of focusing on the problems and hopes and joys of humanity we are stuck bowing and worshiping like slaves to a being that DEMANDS our service and worship or be condemned forever!

I think that they true God is NOT a jealous god as the OT states he is a jealous God because the less its about him the more it becomes about us and we as a race can grow into something truly awesome and reach for the stars. Religion has caused nothing but un-just wars and pain more then any other factions in time. If its all about God then why do we still have free will? This means that free will is our main focus!

 

[Thief]

The Old Book claims God made Man a little less than the angels.(written)
and then to the angels He said....
Man is less than you so seek after him a make certain he would not dash his toe or his head.(not written)

One third of the angelic said ..'nay..
Man is less than we are and therefore should be made to serve us.'

There's nothing wrong with that logic.
We humans do so unto everything less than we are.
We saddle horses and break their spirit.
We force the animal to take us wherever we care to go.

It is the nature of the dog to roam in packs and hunt at will.
We humans chain the animal, and forbid that it might bite the hand that feeds it.
We then expect it affection and loyalty.

We cage little birds for their love songs.
But the creature will never fins the mate he sings for.
No nest, no offspring and he will die in solitude.

We kill insects on sight.

We do unto lesser life as we see fit.
Even unto each other.

To whom do we bear resemblance?

The story I got.....a fight broke out.
Brother angel against brother angel.
One third of heaven fell.
They lost their position over an argument about something that looks like us.
They want us dead.
Two thirds of heaven lost their brothers over an argument...about us.
They might not care.

To whom do we bear resemblance?

I say...God is the Creator and Maker of Man.
The angelic (including the one third that fell) are not the Creator.
The leader of the rebellion would be that Satan, making objection to God's Will.
He wants you dead.
(even though our resemblance to him is greater than our display of heaven)

 

[BSM1]

The Old Book claims God made Man a little less than the angels.(written)
and then to the angels He said....
Man is less than you so seek after him a make certain he would not dash his toe or his head.(not written)

One third of the angelic said ..'nay..
Man is less than we are and therefore should be made to serve us.'

There's nothing wrong with that logic.
We humans do so unto everything less than we are.
We saddle horses and break their spirit.
We force the animal to take us wherever we care to go.

It is the nature of the dog to roam in packs and hunt at will.
We humans chain the animal, and forbid that it might bite the hand that feeds it.
We then expect it affection and loyalty.

We cage little birds for their love songs.
But the creature will never fins the mate he sings for.
No nest, no offspring and he will die in solitude.

We kill insects on sight.

We do unto lesser life as we see fit.
Even unto each other.

To whom do we bear resemblance?

The story I got.....a fight broke out.
Brother angel against brother angel.
One third of heaven fell.
They lost their position over an argument about something that looks like us.
They want us dead.
Two thirds of heaven lost their brothers over an argument...about us.
They might not care.

To whom do we bear resemblance?

I say...God is the Creator and Maker of Man.
The angelic (including the one third that fell) are not the Creator.
The leader of the rebellion would be that Satan, making objection to God's Will.
He wants you dead.
(even though our resemblance to him is greater than our display of heaven)

If you ever get the time or opportunity you might want to read The Urantia Book. It puts this angel war thingy in a whole new light. Of course you have to keep in mind that this book, like all others that can't be definitively substantiated, is speculation.

 

[Thief]

If you ever get the time or opportunity you might want to read The Urantia Book. It puts this angel war thingy in a whole new light. Of course you have to keep in mind that this book, like all others that can't be definitively substantiated, is speculation.

Thank you for the referral.
The source you mention is not how I came about the story.

It seems to me...I grew up with my version.
It's seems a part of me from my own beginning.

 

[Skyrim25]

The Old Book claims God made Man a little less than the angels.(written)
and then to the angels He said....
Man is less than you so seek after him a make certain he would not dash his toe or his head.(not written)

One third of the angelic said ..'nay..
Man is less than we are and therefore should be made to serve us.'

There's nothing wrong with that logic.
We humans do so unto everything less than we are.
We saddle horses and break their spirit.
We force the animal to take us wherever we care to go.

It is the nature of the dog to roam in packs and hunt at will.
We humans chain the animal, and forbid that it might bite the hand that feeds it.
We then expect it affection and loyalty.

We cage little birds for their love songs.
But the creature will never fins the mate he sings for.
No nest, no offspring and he will die in solitude.

We kill insects on sight.

We do unto lesser life as we see fit.
Even unto each other.

To whom do we bear resemblance?

The story I got.....a fight broke out.
Brother angel against brother angel.
One third of heaven fell.
They lost their position over an argument about something that looks like us.
They want us dead.
Two thirds of heaven lost their brothers over an argument...about us.
They might not care.

To whom do we bear resemblance?

I say...God is the Creator and Maker of Man.
The angelic (including the one third that fell) are not the Creator.
The leader of the rebellion would be that Satan, making objection to God's Will.
He wants you dead.
(even though our resemblance to him is greater than our display of heaven)

So you mention that we take animals to "serve" us as a justification for us not living to our potential and to live "under" the control of God?

There is one aspect of your statement that is not right as well as most of the bible in the same statement.

The situation is that God is perfect and therefor has nothing to be judged against so he has no reason to be praised, meaning that we are judged by our failures and defined by over coming them. With a perfect being that is put up against a non-perfect being such as "us" then its clear who is worthy of praise. We are NOT perfect but so many people around the world make the best of their failures and short comings to become better righteous people then who they were born to begin with.

A non-perfect being is more worthy of praise through over coming mountains then a perfect being that was never known failure. We are defined by our road blocks and how we over come them!...to become something that is perfect through imperfection is second to NONE, and even a righteous God would understand that!

We have earned the right to kneel before no one! In the house of God we are not servants, we are family members of the House. In the house of God we are not made to kneel we are made to stand!

 

[Thief]

So you mention that we take animals to "serve" us as a justification for us not living to our potential and to live "under" the control of God?

There is one aspect of your statement that is not right as well as most of the bible in the same statement.

The situation is that God is perfect and therefor has nothing to be judged against so he has no reason to be praised, meaning that we are judged by our failures and defined by over coming them. With a perfect being that is put up against a non-perfect being such as "us" then its clear who is worthy of praise. We are NOT perfect but so many people around the world make the best of their failures and short comings to become better righteous people then who they were born to begin with.

A non-perfect being is more worthy of praise through over coming mountains then a perfect being that was never known failure. We are defined by our road blocks and how we over come them!...to become something that is perfect through imperfection is second to NONE, and even a righteous God would understand that!

We have earned the right to kneel before no one! In the house of God we are not servants, we are family members of the House. In the house of God we are not made to kneel we are made to stand!

It is written somewhere...pray you are worthy to stand before God....yeah.
but sons serve their fathers...do they not?

Without hierarchy we stand from the flesh into chaos.

That you might stand before God would be an item allowed and granted (grace).

The only portion I quoted in the previous post as scripture would be that one line....
God created Man a little less than the angels.

From there I use superlatives.
The are bigger, faster, stronger, more intelligent and greatly experienced.

The rest of that post is mine.
Grew up with it.