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Featured How can the Jew reject, Jesus, Muhammad, Bab and Baha'u'llah?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Tony Bristow-Stagg, Dec 30, 2020.

  1. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    @Skywalker,

    I guess what I'm asking is: why should I trust your judgement on matters of God, sin, and salvation over my own? Everyone makes mistakes, yourself included, so, what makes your version of the meaning of these texts more reliable than mine?
     
  2. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    My beliefs about God, sin, and salvation don't contradict your scriptures. I share the same scriptures as you. Jesus fulfilled all of the messianic prophecies, and one can believe in Jesus and follow Jewish traditions, and the two blend beautifully together. I believe in the New Testament because Jesus fulfilled all of the messianic prophecies. Judaism's beliefs about who the Messiah is come not just from the Old Testament, but rabbinic tradition, which is the opinions of people. Objections to Isaiah 7:14 and Isaiah 9:6-7

     
  3. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    Nobody can even prove that Jesus is the true Messiah, so how you going to prove there were three more "messiahs" after Jesus? Anyway, just a simple search got me this... SIX REASONS WHY JEWS DON'T BELIEVE IN JESUS – or Why Jesus is Not the Jewish Messiah –with Julius Ciss.

    The concept of the Messiah has its foundation in our Jewish Bible, the Tanach, which teaches that all of the following criteria must be fulfilled before any person can be acknowledged as the Messiah:

    Reason #1 – The Messiah must be from the Tribe of Judah and a Descendant of King David AND King Solomon – Jesus did not qualify.

    The Messiah must be a member of the tribe of Judah (Genesis 49:10) and a direct descendant of King David & King Solomon (2 Samuel 7:12-14; 1 Chronicles 22:9-10). Genealogy in the Bible is only passed down from father to son (Numbers 1:1-18).

    There is no evidence that Jesus really had this pedigree, and the Christian Bible actually claims that he did not have a “birth-father” from the tribe of Judah descending from King David and King Solomon (Matt. 1:18-20).

    Reason #2 – Ingathering of the Jewish Exiles – Jesus did not do this.

    When the Messiah is reigning as King of Israel, the Jews will be ingathered from their exile and will return to Israel, their homeland (Deut. 30:3; Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 30:3, 32:37; Ezekiel 11:17, 36:24).
    This has clearly not yet happened and we still await its fulfillment.

    Reason #3– Rebuilding of the Holy Temple – Jesus failed to achieve this.

    The Temple in Jerusalem will be rebuilt (Isaiah 2:2-3, 56:6-7, 60:7, 66:20; Ezekiel 37:26–27; Malachi 3:4; Zech. 14:20-21).

    The Temple was still standing in Jesus’ day. It was destroyed 38 years after Jesus’ crucifixion and it has not yet been rebuilt.

    Reason #4– Worldwide Reign of Peace – Jesus did not accomplish this.

    There will be universal disarmament and worldwide peace with a complete end to war (Micah 4:1-4; Hoseah 2:20; Isaiah 2:1-4, 60:18).

    Wars have increased dramatically in the world since the start of Christianity.

    Reason #5 – Observance of the Torah Embraced by All Jews – Jesus didn’t bring this about.

    The Messiah will reign as King at a time when all the Jewish people will observe G-d’s commandments (Ezekiel 37:24; Deut. 30:8,10; Jeremiah 31:32; Ezekiel 11:19-20, 36:26-27).

    Jesus never ruled as King, nor have all Jews embraced the commandments of G-d’s Torah.

    Reason #6 – Universal Knowledge of G-d – Jesus clearly failed here also.

    The Messiah will rule at a time when all the people of the world will come to acknowledge and serve the one true G-d (Zechariah 3:9, 8:23,14:9,16; Isaiah 45:23, 66:23; Jeremiah 31:33; Ezekiel 38:23; Psalm 86:9; Zeph. 3:9).

    This, as well, has not yet taken place and we await its fulfillment.

    No matter how many unusual & miraculous things Jesus seems to accomplish in the New Testament, he doesn't fulfill even one of the 6 criteria by which the Nation of Israel can recognize him as the true Jewish Messiah.
    After you have shown a convincing argument on how Jesus is the Messiah, then after that you'll have to do the same with the three messengers that came after Jesus. Yet, how many of these six things have been fulfilled... especially the reason four, the one about peace? If all you can do is give an alternative interpretation... like making it metaphorical and not literal, then how are Baha'is different than Christians? But then, the Baha'i alternative interpretation differs from the Christian one. So you've got to not only reject the Jewish interpretation but also the Christian interpretation and I wouldn't be surprised if you'd have to reject the Islamic interpretation also. So what do we got? A bunch of religions telling the Jews that they should believe in these others religions because their prophet says he is the True One.
     
  4. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    The Old Testament is interpreted in many different ways. There are many traditions about a suffering Messiah in Judaism. They don't give the full picture but they hint about Jesus. There are traditions preserved in the Talmud about the Messiah, outside the gates of Rome, a leper, changing his bandages just one at a time, rather than all at once, in case he's called on and Israel needs him, in case its the time for redemption, and where do we get that from? We get that from Isaiah 53 that could be interpreted that the Messiah is smitten with leprosy. Judaism developed a doctrine of Messiah son of Joseph who would suffer and die in the great war and then the Messiah son of David would raise him up from the dead, that Messiah son of Joseph would fight many of the wars of the Lord, some of the earlier medieval Jewish commentators and philosophers said that if we were worthy, that Messiah son of David would come, if we aren't worthy, first Messiah son of Joseph and then Messiah son of David. That teaching may have come from the failed bar kochba result, but many Jews today believe that there will be two Messiahs-Messiah son of Joseph and Messiah son of David. There is even a teaching about the Messiah under the throne of God in the 8th 9th century rabinnic homilies, where the Messiah is under the throne of God suffering terribly and carrying the weight of the pains of the nation. You would've thought a Christian evangelist wrote that, it's amazing how strong and clear it is. He's suffering and carrying the weight and the pains of the nations and if he wasn't doing that, Israel would not be able to survive.
     
  5. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg One Planet One People Please
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    CG, I think I have now said many time and made it very clear, that it is not my job to prove anything to any person, except my own self.

    I see why Jesus and Muhammad will not be seen as the Messiah. I see why people will not see either the Bab or Baha'u'llah as the Messiah.

    To consider acceptance of what Baha'u'llah offered, is up for each of us to decide decide. We must decide if what Baha'u'llah offered has some merit, then and only then may we take the actions required to investigate those claims for ones own self.

    I have seen many that found faith by what other people thought the faith was, soon give it away, as they found things that they did not agree with. Thu the first step for me was to determine if Baha'u'llah knew more than we can possibly know.

    The Messiah in every age fulfills Prophecy, a lot may not be seen outwardly as having come to pass. Baha'u'llah has explained this in the Kitab-i-quan, even that book requires us to each mediate upon what is offered.

    Regards Tony
     
  6. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg One Planet One People Please
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    Reason #1 – Baha'u'llah qualifies

    Reason #2 – Ingathering of the Jewish Exiles – It started at the beginning of the Baha'i Revelation and continues. It is hel back by neglect of the Message offered.

    Reason #3– Rebuilding of the Holy Temple – Baha'u'llah said that Temple is the Self of God.

    "Thus have We built the Temple with the hands of power and might, could ye but know it. This is the Temple promised unto you in the Book. Draw ye nigh unto it. This is that which profiteth you, could ye but comprehend it. Be fair, O peoples of the earth! Which is preferable, this, or a temple which is built of clay? Set your faces towards it. Thus have ye been commanded by God, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting. Follow ye His bidding, and praise ye God, your Lord, for that which He hath bestowed upon you. He, verily, is the Truth. No God is there but He. He revealeth what He pleaseth, through His words "Be and it is".


    Reason #4– Worldwide Reign of Peace – Baha'u'llah offered, the world has to date rejected the offer


    Reason #5 – Observance of the Torah Embraced by All Jews – Baha'u'llah has, but not how the Jews think it will be. But the Baha'i Writings make the Torah available to the whole of humanity. The Messenger of God is the King of all Humanity, many do not see this.

    Reason #6 – Universal Knowledge of G-d – Baha'u'llah has shown us that Oneness of God, yet many people see their God is not of the One God, that is a personal choice and this is what is happening, as you posted; "The Messiah will rule at a time when all the people of the world will come to acknowledge and serve the one true G-d (Zechariah 3:9, 8:23,14:9,16; Isaiah 45:23, 66:23; Jeremiah 31:33; Ezekiel 38:23; Psalm 86:9; Zeph. 3:9)."

    I see it has unfolded CG, I see many will not yet make that choice, or even want to look.

    Regards Tony
     
  7. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    Jesus will bring in the Jewish exiles during the Millennium kingdom. Jesus Christ Will Reign From Jerusalem

     
  8. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg One Planet One People Please
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    There is a new Jerusalem. Jesus also has a New Name.

    The Law goes out from Zion.

    I see dangerous uncertain times are approaching, that will bring about greater change.

    Regards Tony
     
  9. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    The in-gathering of the exiles will happen when the Messiah returns. Israel Regathered Only When Jesus Christ Returns

    The Messianic Kingdom would have been established if the Jews accepted Jesus. If Jews had accepted Christ as their Messiah would the earthly kingdom have been established then? | Bible.org

     
  10. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    This doesn't answer the question: why should I trust your judgement over my own?
     
  11. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    As I've stated previously, my objections do not come from Rabbinic teachings, they come from what's written in the NT and the behavior of believers throughout world history.

    However I will respond directly to this:

    This is a simple question. In the story above, is it possible for the Messiah to be God?
     
  12. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    Those three examples of rabinnic teaching that I mentioned are not there to support those teachings as I think that they were not saying the nature of who the Messiah is, but I believe that what they said contains hints of Isaiah 53 talking about the suffering servant and what the Old Testament says about the second coming of Jesus. I don't know what believers did, but that has nothing to do with God dying for his creation.

    The Hebrew in Isaiah 9:6 supports the Messiah being God. What Bible verses say the Messiah would be God?

     
  13. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    *shaking my head* "God dying for his creation..."

    This has been covered. I'm not interested in repeating it again.
     
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  14. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    No matter how hard we try, we are still going to sin. And when people commit crimes there are penalties. That's why God died for our sins.

    El-Gibbor is never used of a man. Avi-Ad is also a title that belongs to God and God alone. Isaiah 9:6 also uses the term anointed one to refer to the Messiah.
     
  15. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    Avi-Ad is smaller than God.

    God is from everlasting even to everlasting.

    Do a word study on Ad and compare it to Olam and let me know what you think after that.
     
  16. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    My personal opinion:

    It's dishonest to use the word God if you really mean Jesus. If you think God = Jesus, then you should consistently use the name Jesus. Otherwise it's lying by omission.
     
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  17. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    Avi-Ad means ‘Father of Eternity." Some titles only refer to God, like Savior and Messiah. Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
     
  18. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    I believe that God incarnated to die for the sins of the world, because the price had to be died. I believe that God died for every single person. Without God dying for our sins, God taking our place would have no meaning.
     
  19. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    Did you compare Ad to Olam?
     
  20. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    When you say "God" here ^^, do you mean "Jesus"?
     
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