How are these Great Beings explained?

[siti]

I prefer the word folly to delusion, simply because it's a gentler word. Technically it meets the dictionary definition of a fixed false belief. No psychiatrist would be interested though. It risks us calling each other 'deluded' when we simply have contradictory world views. I would hope that common sense and courtesy would prevail.

One can only hope. I wouldn't want to use 'deluded' personally, but when others do, I might point it out. It is a strong word, but has it's proper use too.

Indeed, and that's my point - so far we seem to be ducking the issue here but the point is that if someone thinks they are the messiah when in fact they are not - and they persist in that belief - what is that? Is it mere "folly" or just a "mistake"? And what if such a person draws a million others after him? Its just an "error"? It really is not that important as long as we are not "rude" about it by calling it what it is - a delusion? How can a false belief in the identity of a "Messiah" be anything less than a delusion? And all the more so for the person who believes himself to be the Messiah - surely? This is not about "courtesy" - its about being honest in our search and in our questions.

 

[Vinayaka]

Indeed, and that's my point - so far we seem to be ducking the issue here but the point is that if someone thinks they are the messiah when in fact they are not - and they persist in that belief - what is that?

I believe every individual who thinks that, and there have been thousands, believes it. As to whether or not we believe, that's up to each individual. I personally don't believe in avatars, messiahs, prophets, or any other like the above, so passing judgement on individual cases is irrelevant to me personally, something just way outside my paradigm. So it boils down to belief for each person. There is no way to prove, not prove, all that.

In Hinduism, it just follows automatically that nobody who says that is actually that. An enlightened person simply cannot say, 'I am enlightened' because in true enlightenment (or Self-realisation) the 'I' is gone. It's part of the process of enlightenment, to lose the 'I'. But its such a different paradigm.Celibacy is also a prerequisite, as I've mentioned in this thread before. Can't stress enough how different the paradigms are.

Different strokes for different folks.

 

[siti]

I believe every individual who thinks that, and there have been thousands, believes it. As to whether or not we beieive, that's up to each individual. I personally don't believe in avatars, messiahs, prophets, or any other above, so passing judgement on individual cases is irrelevant to me personally, something just way outside my paradigm.

Perhaps, but if - like Baha'is - you choose to believe one, then aren't you, by definition, declaring the rest of the claimants to be false? So then my question is why are there so many false claimants to being the messiah (or prophet...etc.)? How could really, really smart and otherwise highly successful individuals get such a fundamentally incorrect idea about their own identity? Surely people can see why that question is so important if one is trying to figure out what religion is all about?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

But you're not living it at all, if you can't listen to other viewpoints, and keep dismissing all viewpoints but yours. Carlita is trying to live it, by actually trying to have an actual dialogue. It's frustrating for some people, yes?

One can not Take God out of creation without substituting God for another principal of Virtuous action. Another worthy universal Goal.

Thus I am Happy if Carlita does not want a God, but it does not require me to have a view or look at something without considering God. Carlita will have to find the path to our Unity as Carlita sees she must do, knowing that nothing tangible is possible, that our peace and security unatainable, unless and until we find our Unity.

I am not out of Unity with Carlita, I have different views and they in no way stop Carlita having her own. I am able to embrace all Faiths that live in Principal and Virtue. Points of view are our Diversity.

By saying I am out of Harmony with this Unity is ones own thoughts, but by all means impute them upon me. I have very broad shoulders.

No matter what I will invite you to dinner and serve you both. We can sit and have the JW experience all night, have done it for years with my JW friend, giving quotes back and forth, always learning we Love God more. He never takes offense in words of Love.

But then He knows me and knows that no one can judge another.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

Perhaps, but if - like Baha'is - you choose to believe one, then aren't you, by definition, declaring the rest of the claimants to be false? So then my question is why are there so many false claimants to being the messiah (or prophet...etc.)? How could really, really smart and otherwise highly successful individuals get such a fundamentally incorrect idea about their own identity? Surely people can see why that question is so important if one is trying to figure out what religion is all about?

As a direct result from a conversation I had on this very forum, I once asked a psychiatrist acquaintance of mine who works here in an institution about how common the God delusion is. He sighed, and said, almost dejectedly, 'Far more common than we (society) would like to admit.' Many are institutionalized. There is also 'delusions of grandeur' which is a less severe diagnosis, or syndrome. Many poor folks go in and out of it in degrees of bipolar disorder, or from stress or other factors. As with any psychiatric disorder, it's got to be complicated - no simple answers. Many loved ones delude themselves into thinking what they want to think. Not too long ago, we had an acquaintance at out temple here, quite happy with her mother for being 'inner' when it was clear to the unbiased the poor woman had Alzheimer's.

I'm certainly in no position to be analyzing other folk's prophets. It's none of my business. On a personal note, I'm not attached to what other people choose to believe, but it's an interesting social study to me.

But yes, generally, the God delusion, goes along with the notion that all others are false. I am the only one who really 'knows. It's also on the extreme end of some autism or Asperger's disorders. One can intuit how the idiom 'off the deep end' came to be.

Good talking with you, by the way.

 

[Vinayaka]

I am not out of Unity with Carlita,

Not up to you to decide, Tony. In a friendship, a marriage, a teacher-student ( I mean spiritual, both people living, as in Guru-devotee) it takes both sides. One side simply cannot, in all fairness, dictate what is or isn't. In marriages, if one spouse says, 'I want a divorce', and the other says, 'but I don't', who gets to decide? We all know how the law stands on that one, at least in most civilised countries.

In traditional sampradayas of Hinduism, no student can say 'He is my Guru' without said Guris blessings.

So if Carlita agrees, then sure.

If it was me, I can honestly say that you and I are really totally out of sync. Certainly no unity is involved. Hardly any communication even.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Not up to you to decide, Tony. In a friendship, a marriage, a teacher-student ( I mean spiritual, both people living, as in Guru-devotee) it takes both sides. One side simply cannot, in all fairness, dictate what is or isn't. In marriages, if one spouse says, 'I want a divorce', and the other says, 'but I don't', who gets to decide? We all know how the law stands on that one, at least in most civilised countries.

In traditional sampradayas of Hinduism, no student can say 'He is my Guru' without said Guris blessings.

So if Carlita agrees, then sure.

If it was me, I can honestly say that you and I are really totally out of sync. Certainly no unity is involved. Hardly any communication even.

I wasnt sure how to take what he said. You summed it up nicely.

@Tony Bristow-Stagg you cant say you are unified with me without my agreeing. Thats an illusion of unity. A unacquainted love.

How do you have peace when you dont want to have discussion?

This isnt a bahai thing. Its actually personal. I read bahai gone to peace conferences. Im sure they discusses viewpoints. Bahaullah has conversations. Christ did. The Buddha's suttas are nothing but conversation.

How are you representing bahai beliefs to others when you do not care what they think in return?

Usually people who accept offers accept them from those who appreciate them. Even car salesman say how are You. JW even talked about Buddhism.

Im not getting you Tony.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

One can not Take God out of creation without substituting God for another principal of Virtuous action. Another worthy universal Goal.

That is why there is no peace. Truth statements disregard other peoples imput about their own wellbeing when described by another.

1. Thus I am Happy if Carlita does not want a God, but it does not require me to have a view or look at something without considering God.

2. Carlita will have to find the path to our Unity as Carlita sees she must do, knowing that nothing tangible is possible, that our peace and security unatainable, unless and until we find our Unity.

1. It is not religious in nature. The nature of a productive and assertive conversation requires two views not one.

2. This is why unity cannot come. No respect for my belief because you feel one day I will change.

I am glad I do not have that mindset. Thats one reasons I left catholicism. Its very unattractive.

I am not out of Unity with Carlita, I have different views and they in no way stop Carlita having her own. I am able to embrace all Faiths that live in Principal and Virtue. Points of view are our Diversity.

This is a contradiction. How are you in unity with me?

You dont care about what I say. You ignore me. You belittled my faith. and smile in my face. Iconally and even hugged me many times without "asking" if I wanted you to hug me.

How do you embrace religions if you want the religous to submit to your own?

By saying I am out of Harmony with this Unity is ones own thoughts, but by all means impute them upon me. I have very broad shoulders.

Unaquainted love. I had that once. Hurt when I found she didnt love me in return.

No matter what I will invite you to dinner and serve you both. We can sit and have the JW experience all night, have done it for years with my JW friend, giving quotes back and forth, always learning we Love God more. He never takes offense in words of Love.

We are online, Tony. Conversation expansion is needed more here than in person. I havr good conversations about buddhism and christ with JW. But then again I knew the couple for two yeara. They didnt let their religion to stop them from talking about other religions.

But then He knows me and knows that no one can judge another.

When you insult, people get defensive. When we call you out, you play victim. When we try to find agreement, you vanish. When i speak to someone else, then you comment.

Weird approach.

 

[Vinayaka]

Reminds me oddly of the lack of communication is school hallways with bullies. The standard answer one kid always gave when he was pushing, shoving, otherwise hurting a smaller kid, "But we were just fooling around" . Note the totally inappropriate use of the word 'we'. Meanwhile the victim was bawling, or agreeing, based on the fact he might get beat up after school. We never did reach that kid. He moved schools about 3 times, then had to move school districts. No idea what became of him.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

No idea what became of him.

He became a Baha'i, you described my school life, except I never had to agree, not to get beaten up , they just enjoyed doing it. I noticed in life few people will come to your aid.

I am happy you can keep offering your view on my character, thank you for your concern I will consider each point carefully.

By the way are you free of all these shortcomings?

What I found is that if I offered this type of advice to others, it was because it was still part of my own self.

I will only wish you well and would embrace Unity in Diversity with you any day. Sure you have your own firm opiniions and I appreciate that.

Regards Tony

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Reminds me oddly of the lack of communication is school hallways with bullies. The standard answer one kid always gave when he was pushing, shoving, otherwise hurting a smaller kid, "But we were just fooling around" . Note the totally inappropriate use of the word 'we'. Meanwhile the victim was bawling, or agreeing, based on the fact he might get beat up after school. We never did reach that kid. He moved schools about 3 times, then had to move school districts. No idea what became of him.

We. Yeah, Ive heard people use We to override they are are talking about their views but not wanting to take the responsibility of one's own comments. Heard one of my many psychologist explained it once. I used to be in psychology. It died out abruptly.

I dont have good communication skills in person. Found out the frontal lobe where my seizures are are inpart to blame. It takes practice and interest to develop healthy conversation skills. I kinda wish my parents had good skills. It would saved us a lot of junk (no pun) during my childhood lifetime.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

How do you have peace when you dont want to have discussion?

Abdul'baha showed how this was done. Treat all as if they are your own Family. My wife and I have the same conversations in Faith. You must now think her a great saint that she puts up with me.

Abdul'baha had many an enemy and people that did not like His view of life, but only ever offered good in return.

Thus no matter what, it is up to you if you will also embrace the Unity that is offered, or not. My offer is no threat to you, just a firm alternate opinion that we can agree to disagree upon.

39 deg and Humid here, what we call Mango Madness, maybe if you lived here you may know why people get shorter and shorter in conversation.....until rain...oh wonderful rain on the barren baked land beings sweet aroma to tye nostrils of man!

Be happy, regards Tony

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I worked with a chap who whose behaviour was apalling ... made inappropriate sexual comments to his Grade 4 students, stole money from the school, used people. Spoke a lot about his love for Jesus. That was the year I formally converted to Hinduism via name change, ritual. On or near the last day of school he had the gall to ask me of all people, if I thought he was a good Christian. I just let him have it, until he crept away. They didn't renew his contract, but he got a job with a private Christian school. About 6 months into the that, the principal got a call, looking for info on this guy. So the principal didn't hold back either. It's really quite the thing, that. Reminds me of criminals who stand before a judge claiming they've found Jesus.

Reminds me of Jesus' own words at Matthew 7:21-23. And what Titus 1:16 says. And 2 Peter 2:2. And..... (OK, I'll stop.)

 

[Hockeycowboy]

We. Yeah, Ive heard people use We to override they are are talking about their views but not wanting to take the responsibility of one's own comments. Heard one of my many psychologist explained it once. I used to be in psychology. It died out abruptly.

I dont have good communication skills in person. Found out the frontal lobe where my seizures are are inpart to blame. It takes practice and interest to develop healthy conversation skills. I kinda wish my parents had good skills. It would saved us a lot of junk (no pun) during my childhood lifetime.

How very open and candid!
Someday, Carlita, you'll get better. We'll all get better, those who want to be better.
Wish you the best!

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Abdul'baha showed how this was done. Treat all as if they are your own Family. My wife and I have the same conversations in Faith. You must now think her a great saint that she puts up with me.

Abdul'baha had many an enemy and people that did not like His view of life, but only ever offered good in return.

Thus no matter what, it is up to you if you will also embrace the Unity that is offered, or not. My offer is no threat to you, just a firm alternate opinion that we can agree to disagree upon.

39 deg and Humid here, what we call Mango Madness, maybe if you lived here you may know why people get shorter and shorter in conversation.....until rain...oh wonderful rain on the barren baked land beings sweet aroma to tye nostrils of man!

Be happy, regards Tony

Tony. Take out religion for now. I notice you keep telling me I will someday come to unity as if where I am now is not real peace. Right?

"Also". How do you converse about Anything with someone else, say sports, if you dont care about your friend's view of his team as opposed to yours?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

@Tony Bristow-Stagg Your wife is a good example.

Do you take her opinion into consideration or just your own?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

How very open and candid!
Someday, Carlita, you'll get better. We'll all get better, those who want to be better.
Wish you the best!

Thank you. I greatly appreciate that.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Not up to you to decide, Tony. In a friendship, a marriage, a teacher-student ( I mean spiritual, both people living, as in Guru-devotee) it takes both sides. One side simply cannot, in all fairness, dictate what is or isn't. In marriages, if one spouse says, 'I want a divorce', and the other says, 'but I don't', who gets to decide? We all know how the law stands on that one, at least in most civilised countries.

In traditional sampradayas of Hinduism, no student can say 'He is my Guru' without said Guris blessings.

So if Carlita agrees, then sure.

If it was me, I can honestly say that you and I are really totally out of sync. Certainly no unity is involved. Hardly any communication even.

Guris blessings? Does the Guru give permission for the devotee to refer to the Guru as his spiritual teacher?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Treat all as if they are your own Family

Yes, a wonderful way to view others! (It should help us to slow down our anger in distressing circumstances.) Of course, as one of Jehovah's Witnesses, I (we) consider all I (we) meet as our cousins....you, too. After all, we believe we are descendents of Noah, and that was only 4400 years ago. Put another way, all of us are, at most, only around 220 generations removed from each other! (Most are much less.) [Considering average child-bearing years are ages 20 to 45.]

Wild to think about!

Take care, cousin.

 

[loverofhumanity]

The Buddha's instructions apply to monks and in part to laity of the Dhamma. The general public in my Opinion would benefit from The Buddhas teachings of compassion but its not everyone's cup of tea. The Buddha's physical teachings dont bring compassion. Thats a form of attachment. The practice does.

How do global problems change by changing the physical dhamma?

That is like saying when christ returns he will no longer speak of worshiping his father because of wars. Even more so because of wars, christ teaches that his father does not exist because people fight in his father's name.

See where Im coming from?

I was just thinking we need guidance for our times that’s all because we seem to be struggling with a lot of problems nowadays that are global not individual.