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Featured How are these Great Beings explained?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by loverofhumanity, Feb 27, 2017.

  1. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg World Citizen
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    Or it is what we need, these two quotes offer thoughts

    "The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and centre your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements." (Tabernacle of Unity)

    This as the remedy has been given, this is part of that remedy;

    "This is the Day in which God’s most excellent favors have been poured out upon men, the Day in which His most mighty grace hath been infused into all created things. It is incumbent upon all the peoples of the world to reconcile their differences, and, with perfect unity and peace, abide beneath the shadow of the Tree of His care and loving-kindness."

    That is what we work towards, how about you, is it important to you if we all reconcile our differences?

    If you live the virtues and we also live the virtues, what differences can we have that are important?

    Regards Tony
     
  2. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    I only read one book about Siddartha Gautama, it was called 'The book of Buddha', and told of the beginnings of his mission....... a moderately large volume it could only touch upon his teachings, but he does seem to be far advanced in thought and reasoning beyond any Abrahamic prophet. His teaching seemed tangible compared to the 'spritual' 'mystical' intangibles.

    Indeed... :p
    Old gumshoes aren't smart, they just worked to systems and routines, truly.
    :)

    I don't know......... I have noticed that the most bright, most intellectual, most gifted, most educated, most successful folks that I ever knew, belonged to Unorthodox Judaism. Honest.
     
  3. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    That reminds me of Dale Carnegie's example of the gangland mobster, robber, murderer and cop killer who, finally arrested, charged, convicted and sentenced to death was asked for his last words before the electric was turned on, and he said ,'This is what you get for trying to help people'.
    :shrug:
     
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  4. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    You do this by changing and "updating" other people's scriptures to where they have no value in and of themselves but only through the eyes of Baha'ullah's interpretation.

    “The fundamental principle enunciated by Bahá’u’lláh, the followers of His Faith firmly believe, is that Religious truth is not absolute but relative, that Divine Revelation is a continuous and progressive process, that all the great religions of the world are divine in origin, that their basic principles are in complete harmony, that their aims and purposes are one and the same, that their teachings are but facets of one truth, that their functions are complementary, that they differ only in the non-essential aspects of their doctrines and that their missions represent successive stages in the spiritual evolution of human society.”
    From the Bahá’í Writings
    Peace cannot happen by literally making one truth, one religion, one progression, and one defined origin by interpreting our scriptures to mean something to Bahai that they don't mean to us.

    This causes wars not peace.

    Don not address the scriptures. Address the people.

    We do not need unity/unification (having one truth) to build peace among humanity.

    Ignoring the unique diversity (differences) of faiths by making everything one truth to cure problems defined by Bahaullah causes wars.

    You don't have to defend your faith. It is what it is.

    No.

    Differences are diversity. I see no reason to believe in god in order to find peace.

    I see no reason for my beliefs to be part of a progression and foundation of the divine to help people while not attempting to change their foundation of beliefs in the process.

    I don't see the need to accept differences as superficial (as I quoted) but as the core of why we can work together without stepping on each other's toes.

    Diversity? Why is diversity important?

    For example, Christian's foundation is believing that peace comes from the death of a person.

    The Buddha taught peace comes from the life of The Dhamma.

    They both teach love and compassion. They also both have rituals that have been practiced for thousands of years and still to this day.

    All
    of their teachings promote peace among others; and, because of these teachings, they find ways to help the people without needing to change each others scriptures.

    No Christian changes the suttas to find unity and help others. No Buddhist changes the bible to find unity to help others.

    Our differences support us and encourage us to help find a cure to humanity's illnesses, if you like. Christians see cures as everlasting life. Buddhist see the cure as a peaceful death by no longer being reborn into suffering.​

    The beautiful of differences/diversity let's people feel appreciated for who they are whether as a community or as an individual.​

    It gives them a sense of self and purpose that they don't need to compromise their or their community's belief to fit someone else's that completely opposes them.

    Wars happen when we do not respect another person's differences. Peace is developed when we do. Wars happen when we make another person's differences superficial. Peace happens when we are encouraged by are differences to work together for the same goal. Wars happen when we have one person dictating peace for diversity. Peace happens when diversity is involved in decision making of the whole.

    You can't have peace with diversity under one person's truth.​
     
    #13504 Unveiled Artist, Nov 6, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2017
  5. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    Thank you.

    I hope I would never rubbish reincarnation. One of my in-laws believes in it as well as one of my best friends. Its an attractive idea with the transmigration of souls. As I indicated I can neither fully refute it or prove reincarnation. It is not my belief and faith, but it could be true.

    The biggest problems I have with it are threefold:
    (1) I wonder if some of its adherents achieve less with the one life (I believe they have on earth), due to believing they don't need to get it right in this life, and along with moksha and mediation become excessively introverted. Having said that, the Abrahamic manifestations all had their time out in preparation for their mission. Baha'u'llah two years in the mountains of Kurdistan and Jesus 40 days in the wilderness.

    (2) Given belief in reincarnation is a prerequisite for Moksha, it means that the people of the Indian subcontinent were the truly enlightened ones, whereas the rest of us haven't been.

    (3) It appears contrary to God's mercy that we would have to endure another life here, not that I am unhappy with my life, but it seems a little cruel to resit the test.

    @Vinayaka ,you will have some thoughts in this regard that I'd be interested to hear.

    I can see have you have a different approach, but I don't compartmentalise, and don't need to. We are all part of the same human race and the same the same homeland land. Although is one ultimate reality that is common to us all, despite our vastly differing perceptions and approaches to that one reality. The parable of the blind men with the elephant makes perfect sense to me.

    Blind men and an elephant - Wikipedia

    I had a series of inner experiences that I interpreted to confirm reincarnation. Whatever those experiences were, they are not important now, and I no longer believe as I did. I've moved on decades ago.:)
     
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  6. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Peace happens when we listen to each other and offer solutions for the benefit and input of the whole.

    Wars happen when one person's solution dictates and overrides the solutions of the whole.

    Peace happens when we are involved in decision making.
    Wars happen when decisions are made for us.

    @Tony Bristow-Stagg You can't find peace in unity; one truth.

    "they differ only in the non-essential aspects of their doctrines"

    Our doctrines and practices are what encourages us to work together. They are our foundation. They are not stages of one truth. They are individual and unique with their own truth onto themselves.

    When you respect this, peace happens.
    When you unify it, wars happen.

    When you respect differences, you don't have #13505 posts in one thread.

    A quote, if I remember it: When two philosophers come together, they debate. When two spiritual minded people come together, they smile.
     
  7. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg World Citizen
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    That is the choice Baha'u'llah has Given to find our Unity, that there is One God and our Highest thoughts come from God all else is from our own selves.

    It does not mean we drop our personal belief, we just submit to the concept it is all from the same source and that we all work for a better world. We can always give it a go if it does not work we can fo back to the way we are.

    Your not a TV person, but if you were, you would see the events that are unfolding each day, prove without any doubt, everything Baha'u'llah offered is an elixer to what is happening.

    Lets say the world disarmed back in the late 1800's, look what could have been prevented.

    Look what could be if the World had dropped its predudices and Culture, Race and Gender could have flourished.

    Regards Tony
     
  8. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    I know very little about reincarnation in Hinduism. In Buddhism, the better term would be rebirth. How I believed in it was I looked at how the earth and moon turns. The stars come together, burst, and come together to make more stars. (In my elementary knowledge of astronomy). When we are born, become a child, reach our peak, age, and become a child again. Thubten Chodron (a monk) described it by the term mindstream. Our "soul" for lack of better words are reborn as another person. @Vinayaka might can explain it more. She explained it similar to how Vinayaka described it with the difference being there is no permanent soul and no moska.

    I never really cared for the elephant parable. America has been trying to make people "white" for ages. We only see people like us and disregard the minorities, for example. A lot of racism and religious prejudices because if one person doesn't believe the same as another, then they get belittle or dismissed. Even our laws favor those who are christian than those who are not. Christianity welcomes new convert with open arms hoping everyone would be christian some day.

    I'd say the elephant just means we are in one world. I'm not on mars and you're not on the moon. The physical nature of the elephant is what we share because we are all in the same life. The issue is saying to the person touching the trunk and another the elephant's ear that their foundation is the same even though they are touching different parts of the body. It invalidates that an ear is different than a trunk therefore, the foundation of that person's belief is different. It's not superficial diversity but people actually believe what they are touching is reality itself. Once you connect them to make one elephant, you're speaking for and defining reality for the whole.

    Since no one is "god" that would be, um, very disrespectful to do. Since Bahai is touching the tail thinking it's the whole elephant, they can believe this foundation is something else but other people don't have that one piece defines the whole view. They are satisfied with the parts of the elephant they touch.

    It's kind hard to type this without sounding like a run-on sentence.
     
  9. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg World Citizen
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    Well lets Continue the way it is, as that is what we have now, no Unity.

    Regards Tony
     
  10. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg World Citizen
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    That is not true as Unity in Diversity is the Call and is being practiced.

    You are correct, I do not need to defend this as we try to live it and people can see it how they wish to.

    Regards Tony
     
  11. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    Some Christians really believe that all you need to do is believe in Christ to be saved.

    I prefer the word folly to delusion, simply because it's a gentler word. Technically it meets the dictionary definition of a fixed false belief. No psychiatrist would be interested though. It risks us calling each other 'deluded' when we simply have contradictory world views. I would hope that common sense and courtesy would prevail.
     
  12. siti

    siti Well-Known Member

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    Indeed - if people could see a way to "beat their swords into ploughshares..." as Isaiah had it (Isaiah 2:4) or "returned their swords to their sheaths" as Jesus recommended (Matthew 26:52) and what might have been if Peter's observation that "God does not show [racial] favouritism" (Acts of the Apostles 10:34-35) had been more widely observed over the nearly 2000 years since it was written down!

    None of these are new ideas - none of these originated with Baha'u'llah and Baha'u'llah has had no greater measure of success in bringing them to reality than the ancient prophets or the Christian apostles.
     
  13. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Tony, I don't want to be rude, but from how you converse with us, you're not too much of an introspective person. It's like asking you to see something from one perspective but instead of considering the validity of that perspective, you continue with your own. It lends for a one-sided conversation.
    This is my point.

    This is a one progression. One truth. One reality. One god.

    You cannot have peace when you have one truth making the decisions and overriding the truths of the whole.

    If we held our personal beliefs, we cannot, by contradiction, submit to the concept of the same source. We either need to drop our beliefs in order to submit to one source. Our beliefs do not support one source views.

    Yes. There was a shooting at a church in Texas. 26 people were killed and many injured. I got my laptop stolen right out of my apartment. My friend is living with criminals at a group home. I'm down the street where many people who commit murders know my name. I don't need to see it on t.v. I live it.

    You keep repeating Bahaullah offers the elixir. If you really want to work together in diversity, you have to hear other people's solutions too not just your own.

    Take marriage, for example.

    If you really, really, supported peace among diversity, god would marry people regardless of their gender and sex.

    You only support people who submit to your belief. I mean, I respect all the people I talked with when I was around very nice people whose background is hard to imagine.

    What we need is unconditional love.

    You can't have that with submission.
     
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  14. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    One can only hope. I wouldn't want to use 'deluded' personally, but when others do, I might point it out. It is a strong word, but has it's proper use too.
     
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  15. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    I'm glad you're agnostic on it. Momen wasn't. Not sure about Baha'u'llah and his descendants who led.

    We don't believe this is a place to endure, as you put it. Hindus, for the most part, are taught to enjoy life. One of my Guru's oft quoted quote is 'Life is meant to be lived joyously.' But I can see that if you feel this place is some wretched horrible place to be, then heaven would be quite appealing to the mind.
     
    #13515 Vinayaka, Nov 6, 2017
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  16. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    Depends on whose virtues you're talking about. We don't all agree, on lots of things, like gay marriage, ahimsa, capital punishment, nature of God, and much much more. So if we are going to talk about virtues, then we have to define them. You can't just use one general word, and think it applies to all people. That's like saying Australia is in the southern hemisphere. It's not really very helpful for somebody trying to understand Australia.
     
    #13516 Vinayaka, Nov 6, 2017
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  17. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    If you cannot find another approach, of course everything will stay the same. People have been trying to unify for years thinking that if we think and believe one way, the only elixir, everything will be fine. No one has yet to realize we do not need to make people like us. This causes wars.
     
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  18. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    I agree. If it's just quotes after quote after quotes, then it can hardly be called a discussion. But the thread goes on, as some people do discuss, thank goodness. I think maybe I'll start reporting the straight quoting as proselytising. This is a discussion forum after all, and this thread is supposed to be a debate.
     
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  19. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    It would be easier if you can be more reflective. I can't change your belief. You can't change mine.

    The point of working together is not to change each other's beliefs by finding one elixir. It's working together and being encouraged by our own beliefs to find an elixir we both agree with.

    No agreement, no peace.
     
    #13519 Unveiled Artist, Nov 6, 2017
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  20. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    But you're not living it at all, if you can't listen to other viewpoints, and keep dismissing all viewpoints but yours. Carlita is trying to live it, by actually trying to have an actual dialogue. It's frustrating for some people, yes?
     
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