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How are these Great Beings explained?

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Hello again Adrian...

Hello Deeje, thank you for dropping in.

Thank you. Is there a line of reasoning that you would like to explore?

I don't know if you got the gist of the conversation I have been having with @siti who used to be a JW. I think you probably have as we were discussing how far apart the JWs and Baha'is are from each other. That would lead to each other's theologies appearing somewhat strange or unusual to each other. Regardless of this difference it was still possible for us to converse and simply share our beliefs and agree to disagree. That was my experience and that was important as even though our discordant views frequently clashed, we still had the patience to carry on an extended conversation with each other. Like many, I have talked to JWs who go door. However the discussion we had enabled me to learn a lot more about your faith.

Indeed. I had heard of Baha'is but it never dawned on me that they were an offshoot of Islam. For some reason I thought they were more of an Eastern religion, rather than a Middle Eastern one. I have never encountered a Baha'i believer in my local neighborhood where we preach.

Clearly you have not met any Baha'is and it sounds as if you learnt a thing or two from our discussions about the Baha'is even though there here major disagreements. Christianity has Middle Eastern origins too of course.

The Bible is our guide in everything. How did God handle unrepentant wrongdoers in Israel?

"God took expelling, or disfellowshipping, action in numerous instances. He sentenced Adam to death and drove him and his wife Eve out of the garden of Eden. (Gen 3:19, 23, 24) Cain was banished and became a wanderer and a fugitive in the earth. (Gen 4:11, 14, 16) The angels that sinned were thrown into Tartarus, a condition of dense darkness in which they are reserved for judgment. (2Pe 2:4) Twenty-three thousand fornicators were cut off from Israel in one day. (1Cor 10:8) Achan was put to death at Jehovah’s command for stealing that which was devoted to Jehovah. (Joshua 7:15, 20, 21, 25) Korah the Levite along with Dathan and Abiram of the tribe of Reuben were cut off for rebellion, and Miriam was stricken with leprosy and eventually might have died in that condition if Moses had not pleaded for her. As it was, she was expelled from the camp of Israel under quarantine seven days. Num 16:27, 32, 33, 35; 12:10, 13-15.

Under the Law, for the penalty of cutting off to be carried out, evidence had to be established at the mouth of at least two witnesses. (Deut 19:15) These witnesses were required to be the first to stone the guilty one. (Deut 17:7) This would demonstrate their zeal for God’s law and the purity of the congregation of Israel and would also be a deterrent to false, careless, or hasty testimony.

Based on the principles of the Hebrew Scriptures, the Christian Greek Scriptures by command and precedent authorize expulsion, or disfellowshipping, from the Christian congregation. By exercising this God-given authority, the congregation keeps itself clean and in good standing before God. The apostle Paul, with the authority vested in him, ordered the expulsion of an incestuous fornicator who had taken his father’s wife. (1Co 5:5-13) He also exercised disfellowshipping authority against Hymenaeus and Alexander. (1Tim 1:19, 20)"

Excerpt from Expelling — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

Thank you for your very detailed and clear explanation of disfellowshipping. I can see the biblical basis and logic behind it, although it is not how the Baha'is would approach such problems. You would expect that. Our theology is derived from Baha'u'llah, a Persian Prophet, who Baha'is consider to be a 'Manifestation of God' alongside Jesus and Muhammad.

I was married to an unbeliever for almost 45 years. He respected my views, I respected his. I became a JW after we were married. It is always easier to be married to a fellow JW, since we would not have conflicting ideas or goals. I believe that serving God together strengthens a marriage.

I agree that it can be easier to be married to someone who is the same Faith and that is the ideal if possible. I didn't realise you were married to a non-believer and I suspect that marriage gave you a better capacity to relate to diverse people with differing Faiths as it has for me.

JW's are good neighbors and work colleagues but reserve most of their social interaction for fellow believers. We have little in common with those who do not share our faith, so we do not naturally gravitate to them. You can't have friendships with people you have difficulty communicating with, or who don't share common interests.

That is what I figured and I think quite a lot of religions are like that. The Baha'is are quite gregarious as Baha'u'llah taught us to have a world embracing view and to consort with peoples of all Faiths in a spirit of love and fellowship.

From our perspective, we cannot "bridge gaps" because the gaps are too wide. What Baha'is believe is not even close to what we accept as truth. You have a wide range of views embracing other religious beliefs and leaders, whereas we have one simple faith based entirely on the teachings of Jesus Christ whom we believe was God's last prophet.
We do not believe that God would sent messengers into the world with conflicting messages. There was one faith in Israel and one faith in Christianity....we have one faith expressed in one global brotherhood where all believe the same things, and worship God Jehovah in the same way.
128fs318181.gif

Ha ha. I won't even begin to deconstruct those words, except to say, we may be closer than you think, and we may be further apart than I think. May the One True God through Christ be upon you and continue to bless you.

Thank you so much for dropping by.:)
 
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Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
That would have solved some of the problems the ex-Baha'i' faced for sure. It's not fun when 'hidden stuff' (intentional or otherwise) shows up later. It's like if that happened in a marriage. If someone pretended to be a virgin, and then came clean much later, as an example, in situations where that moral concept is very important, there could be hellish times to come.

I hadn't really thought about it that way. Interesting analogy.

You may be interested to know that the biggest challenge I had as a young Baha'i was the belief that there was no reincarnation. In the few years leading up to becoming a Baha'i I had been living in relative seclusion for a few years meditating morning and evening in my own idiosyncratic way as no one formally taught me how to do it properly so I learnt from books. During that time I had experiences that led me to believe in reincarnation. At the time I had been reading an 'autobiography of a Yogi' by Yogananda and also 'Out on a limb' by Shirley Maclaine. I was convinced in the truth of reincarnation, and even though I was aware of the Baha'i Faith's position was still comfortable declaring. Not long after the contradiction became foremost in my mind, and I had to resolve it. I had to work out whether it was true or not, because if it was I could no longer be a Baha'i. So I read intensively and talked to a recently declared Baha'i who was from a Buddhist background. Eventually I concluded I could not establish or refute whether reincarnation was true or not, and chose the Baha'i Faith. I've never really looked back and have no recollection whatsoever of any experiences that led to my conclusions. The mind sees what it wants to see, and the best we can do is to sincerely open our hearts and minds to the truth and follow that truth, whatever form it may take.

But as to proselytizing, I agree that it does come in degrees, and I don't see the Baha'i' as being as extreme as certain other groups. As you'd be familiar with, that was also a theme in ex-Baha'i' stories ... the pressure to keep looking for converts was a turnoff for some, if not many.

There is an emphasis on establishing neighbourhood study groups, devotion meetings and classes for young people that are open to all, but with no pressure or expectation that anyone becomes a Baha'i. Its a relatively new development in Baha'i culture that has been building momentum over the last 15 years. Its something we are all learning and engaging with to some degree according to our capacity. Its important that we learn to read the reality of our own lives and move at a pace that works for each of us. Some will be fast and others moving at a snails place. Its a challenge to learn the skills and knowledge to truly become a Baha'i and its a journey we all take together. I imagine that some in their enthusiasm may encourage others too much.

And I know that there have been warnings on the forum here to Baha'i's about proselytizing. So I'm certainly not alone with those thoughts.

I haven't received any notifications as yet. Maybe I'm not trying hard enough to be a good Baha'i.:)
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Oh yes, I know, I'm a Hindu. Just as you know the criticisms of Baha'i', so too do I of my faith. I was just curious as to what you personally were referring to, but I see you had to go look some up. I look at each individual idea independently, and wholeheartedly agree with some of it. The world is changing, and remains full of diverse opinions.

Thank you for the challenging question and pushing for an answer. Yes, I'm starting to get more of a feel for Hinduism if that be even remotely possible. You have developed some skills in being able to analyse another's Faith as has Carlita. Who knows? Maybe some of that will rub off on me.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Sorry to interrupt your conversation with Didymus, but I just wanted to point out the other factor, more relevant today. Reincarnation is an ongoing process of life for Hindus, So it gets confirmed continuously. Hindus feel it, have children say things about their past lives, pick up souls from past agreements, feel souls hovering over mother's wombs, do rituals specifically to get older souls, or recognise birthmarks that are indicators of the previous life. So not only is it written down in ancient texts, its also part of a Hindu's everyday life.
On a personal note, I know the immediate past life of all of my children, and know lots of people like me. For us, who are living and breathing the tradition of Sanatana Dharma, it's not just some concept written down in some far off book, but part of every day life, like eating, death, and more. So for us, it's just normal, even boring.

Thank you for that. I must do some research to better understand the experiences Hindus have to lead them to have such certainty. As mentioned earlier, I either haven't had them, or I've forgotten.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
So....... up to this point your only supporters are people like the POTUS, so good luck with that. Now let's look at the ridiculous siuation with Bahai Heterosexual marriage.

Once again the Baha'i faith is Abrahamic and like Judaism, Islam, and Christianity there is no homosexual marriage. How about some of those 613 Mosaic laws that you admire so much. I don't think we will be quoting from those, do you? Similarly with Buddhism and Hinduism, at least up until relatively recently, homosexuality has been taboo. So I don't think there is something really unusual with Baha'i laws on marriage in this regard.

A couple meets, may never know each other completely until after marriage, and so engage and undertake an extremely short period of preparation for a marriage. They marry and can find that they are totally unsuited to each other from first night, even. There is often one pregnancy or birth before separation and then the one year before divorce. In such a puritanical world I don't expect there will be that much emphasis on sexual therapy or counselling. And then round they can all go again.

This is not the blueprint for a successful society with a high % of truly happy and satisfied folks.

Sigh:(

Baha'is are asked to become thoroughly acquainted with the character of those we intend to marry, before we get married. I don't know where you are getting your information about this 'extremely short period of preparation for a marriage'. Another safe guard is the couples seek permission from their parents.

This so called progressive and modern idea of shacking up together and ensuring sexual compatibility before marriage has no evidence that it works. To the contrary our countries consistently high divorce rates, children being brought up in single parent households, and abortions since the 1970s suggests the contrary and I suspect its the same in England too.

Having children is an entirely separate subject and nothing to do with people having the right to marry or enter civil-partnerships. Those couples that cannot have children naturally may wish to adopt, or not.

Given that a central purpose of sex is reproduction and the majority of long term couples go on to rear children, its an entirely related subject IMHO.
 
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Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
In the few years leading up to becoming a Baha'i I had been living in relative seclusion for a few years meditating morning and evening in my own idiosyncratic way as no one formally taught me how to do it properly so I learnt from books. During that time I had experiences that led me to believe in reincarnation. At the time I had been reading an 'autobiography of a Yogi' by Yogananda and also 'Out on a limb' by Shirley Maclaine. I was convinced in the truth of reincarnation, and even though I was aware of the Baha'i Faith's position was still comfortable declaring.

There is an emphasis on establishing neighbourhood study groups, devotion meetings and classes for young people that are open to all, but with no pressure or expectation that anyone becomes a Baha'i. Its a relatively new development in Baha'i culture that has been building momentum over the last 15 years. Its something we are all learning and engaging with to some degree according to our capacity. Its important that we learn to read the reality of our own lives and move at a pace that works for each of us. Some will be fast and others moving at a snails place. Its a challenge to learn the skills and knowledge to truly become a Baha'i and its a journey we all take together. I imagine that some in their enthusiasm may encourage others too much.

I haven't received any notifications as yet. Maybe I'm not trying hard enough to be a good Baha'i.:)

I respect any conversion or adoption of anyone who takes a good look at things, spends time, and isn't hoodwinked by things like love-bombing, money, or other coercive stuff. You match that.

Yes, I've read about the new Rumi (right word???) program. Some people like it, others react to it. With all change, you win a few and lose a few. In the organisation I belong to, we've had two major changes in the last 50 years, the first lost maybe half the membership, and the second maybe 25%. But it's never been about membership, its about principle.

Thank you for that. I must do some research to better understand the experiences Hindus have to lead them to have such certainty. As mentioned earlier, I either haven't had them, or I've forgotten.

I believe everyone has certain kinds of experiences, and they're analysed by the existing subconscious. Suppose someone has a flash of light during meditation. A Christian might think it was a sign from Christ, an atheist might think it was a brain nerve syntax responding wrongly, and a dharmic seeker might just see it as a sign, or an enlightened being might see it as a normal thing. Same experience, but filtered differently through each individual's subconscious, or in one case the subsuperconscious.
 
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Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
I think you have dug yourself into a hole by suggesting many of the world religious leaders might have been deluded (and it suggests we may be to by association) but go ahead.

What about the followers? I don't mean ordinary folks, but the ones that put so much power into their prophet, that they think the prophet will do it all for them, or that because they have love from ________, then therefore they can commit as much sin as they want, because __________ forgives me.

Would you consider that folly or delusion?
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I think maybe things like world peace, world disarmament? World citizenship, a world language maybe, peace between the Faiths and a new attitude towards people to accept all humanity as equals are some global problems perhaps not faced in Gautama’s time or not on a global scale?

As far as change? I think there is a great need for prejudice and bigotry to be eliminated or educated out of our minds. What do you think about prejudice. I see the racial stuff and it’s very sad. We are all people so the colour of our skin should not matter.

So if we read the wise Words of Buddha or Hindu literature we will see that there is much truth in them and not only the Bible or the Baha’i Books. Truth is in all Faiths and sects we believe. So Vinayaka and you possess much truth that I don’t. That’s the way it is and if we are humble we can share and learn from each other.

Truth is found everywhere. It would be indeed difficult to find a creed or a doctrine of any sort in this world that did not possess some facet of truth; this is what Bahá'u'lláh believed and taught.
(Shoghi Effendi)

What needs to be changed in the suttas?

I see no need to change them.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Yes these things are always in need of the Buddha’s wisdom and nothing is outdated.

But we do have global problems that need solutions such as I mentioned in my previous post. World governance? World or international laws? World language? World peace? An end to wars? Friendship between the religions? Global warming? World disarmament?

There are many problems we have as a world that require global solutions I think so it’s not that Buddha’s Dhamma was ever out of date but more that our times have changed so we need instructions and wisdom on how best to deal with our new interconnected and multi cultural multi religious world and society.

The Buddha's instructions apply to monks and in part to laity of the Dhamma. The general public in my Opinion would benefit from The Buddhas teachings of compassion but its not everyone's cup of tea. The Buddha's physical teachings dont bring compassion. Thats a form of attachment. The practice does.

How do global problems change by changing the physical dhamma?

That is like saying when christ returns he will no longer speak of worshiping his father because of wars. Even more so because of wars, christ teaches that his father does not exist because people fight in his father's name.

See where Im coming from?
 
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Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I hadn't really thought about it that way. Interesting analogy.

You may be interested to know that the biggest challenge I had as a young Baha'i was the belief that there was no reincarnation. In the few years leading up to becoming a Baha'i I had been living in relative seclusion for a few years meditating morning and evening in my own idiosyncratic way as no one formally taught me how to do it properly so I learnt from books. During that time I had experiences that led me to believe in reincarnation. At the time I had been reading an 'autobiography of a Yogi' by Yogananda and also 'Out on a limb' by Shirley Maclaine. I was convinced in the truth of reincarnation, and even though I was aware of the Baha'i Faith's position was still comfortable declaring. Not long after the contradiction became foremost in my mind, and I had to resolve it. I had to work out whether it was true or not, because if it was I could no longer be a Baha'i. So I read intensively and talked to a recently declared Baha'i who was from a Buddhist background. Eventually I concluded I could not establish or refute whether reincarnation was true or not, and chose the Baha'i Faith. I've never really looked back and have no recollection whatsoever of any experiences that led to my conclusions. The mind sees what it wants to see, and the best we can do is to sincerely open our hearts and minds to the truth and follow that truth, whatever form it may take.



There is an emphasis on establishing neighbourhood study groups, devotion meetings and classes for young people that are open to all, but with no pressure or expectation that anyone becomes a Baha'i. Its a relatively new development in Baha'i culture that has been building momentum over the last 15 years. Its something we are all learning and engaging with to some degree according to our capacity. Its important that we learn to read the reality of our own lives and move at a pace that works for each of us. Some will be fast and others moving at a snails place. Its a challenge to learn the skills and knowledge to truly become a Baha'i and its a journey we all take together. I imagine that some in their enthusiasm may encourage others too much.



I haven't received any notifications as yet. Maybe I'm not trying hard enough to be a good Baha'i.:)

I like your testimony. Have you thought about saying reincarnation is true just put it on the back burner as something extra thats not important to your faith?

I mean. I still believe christ is alive as a spirit. I still believe he is in the Eucharist. I still believe in the sacraments. I dont believe IN any of these things. They arent a part of my faith so I put it aside.

Do you honestly feel your experiences with reincarnation is false because you took up a current faith?
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
I respect any conversion or adoption of anyone who takes a good look at things, spends time, and isn't hoodwinked by things like love-bombing, money, or other coercive stuff. You match that.

There are many ways we can come to a new Faith or even return to an old one. Although I had spent just 8 months investigating the Baha'i Faith before joining, I had nearly 5 years before that consciously searching for answers, and for the most part that was the main focus of my energies. That led me to investigate Buddhism, Hinduism, and atheism, as well as my Christian roots. I reflected, meditated, and had some great conversations along the way. I had no idea when I started that journey where it would lead, and I never really expected to be part of any organised religion, let alone one with a strange sounding name from Persia, of Islamic origins. Islam certainly never appealed, nor did Judaism or Catholicism. The first year I became wholeheartedly devoted to this pursuit family members and friends simply thought I had come off the rails and become unhinged, which in a sense I had. I had dropped out of medical school and didn't seem to be up to much. Initial thoughts were looking for a guru based on Hindu philosophy that never seemed to eventuate (although in hindsight Baha'u'llah, Jesus, and Abdu'l-Baha are my gurus). So when the door finally opened to the Baha'i faith, the groundwork had been done and I was ready to walk on through. I would never have considered the Baha'i Faith five years beforehand.

So as for being hoodwinked by love-bombing, money, and coercion...no.:)
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Once again the Baha'i faith is Abrahamic and like Judaism, Islam, and Christianity there is no homosexual marriage.
There you go, the living proof that Bahai is stuck back in the dark ages. But you make a mistake, because since there is now no need for increasing population, Closed Gay Unions are fine, healthy, and with as much chance of happiness as Hetero-marriages.
You see? There's just nothing really new about Bahai, is there?

How about some of those 613 Mosaic laws that you admire so much. I don't think we will be quoting from those, do you?
My post covered the reasons why the Mosiac Law on Homosexuality could safely be repealed, you just didn't want to see it.

Similarly with Buddhism and Hinduism, at least up until relatively recently, homosexuality has been taboo. So I don't think there is something really unusual with Baha'i laws on marriage in this regard.
Should you blame other religions for any bahai bigotry?

Baha'is are asked to become thoroughly acquainted with the character of those we intend to marry, before we get married.
How can they when they have no idea of each other's sexual needs and desires?

I don't know where you are getting your information about this 'extremely short period of preparation for a marriage'.
Another change in the Bahai tenets, right there!
Engagements were only supposed to be very short, just long enough for the marriage arrangements. I seem to remember it was about three months, 50 years ago. The Bahai tenets are changing then, so why not wake up to modern day equality?

Another safe guard is the couples seek permission from their parents.
That has not worked very well, then. And as if parents can choose for their children, or have any idea about their childrens adult desires. This is all dark ages stuff.

This so called progressive and modern idea of shacking up together and ensuring sexual compatibility before marriage has no evidence that it works.
Of course it can! If it does not work the couple can separate with more ease. And who says unmarried couples only live in shacks? Your word salad shows your prejudice.

To the contrary our countries consistently high divorce rates, children being brought up in single parent households, and abortions since the 1970s suggests the contrary and I suspect its the same in England too.
Back in the day hypocritical society frowned down upon divorce and treated divorced wives as if scum. Husbands could be brutal to wives, have lovers, etc and wives often dared not do anything about it, but today all women have more freedom of choice, and action.
Bully for them.

Given that a central purpose of sex is reproduction and the majority of long term couples go on to rear children, its an entirely related subject IMHO.
That is the a most puritanical and pseudo-righteous point of view. Women today won't put up with that kind of talk, because they mostly believe that sex is a joyful demonstration of love.

It's no good, Bahai trying to hide amongst the Abrahamic religions one second, and then disclaiming them the next. Judaism and even Christianity gave much more freedom to women and men than Bahai would, as described with care to you.

The World won't go backwards, it can only go forwards. Bahai was out of date almost as soon as it was written, methinks.
 

siti

Well-Known Member
I have never thought of myself as being a 'true parent' of the Returned Christ. That sounds very grandiose to me.
Well of course I didn't mean that you might have thought that about yourself and I agree it would be a grandiose thought to have. However, both Sun Myung Moon and Baha'u'llah both indicated that they were here to complete Christ's mission. So what you said is equally applicable to both of them:

He's either right or He's wrong. There's no middle ground.
The question is how could somebody be wrong about this? Is it simply a mistaken interpretation of scripture? Or is there a deeper psychological issue at play? How could such otherwise intelligent and high achieving individuals be so wildly wrong about their own identity? Surely you must agree that an honest appraisal of these religious leaders and the faiths they have initiated requires that we ask the question and answer it honestly?
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
What about the followers? I don't mean ordinary folks, but the ones that put so much power into their prophet, that they think the prophet will do it all for them, or that because they have love from ________, then therefore they can commit as much sin as they want, because __________ forgives me.

Would you consider that folly or delusion?

Wow!
Some Predestination Christians actually do act and speak mostly as they please (although they deny it!) knowing that they and only they can be redeemed, and that no matter how good a life anybody else lives those folks are doomed, by predestination!
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
The World won't go backwards, it can only go forwards. Bahai was out of date almost as soon as it was written, methinks.

I definitely agree. A step up from Islam at that. Most of the basic premises, to me, are just silly. Progressive manifestations? Really? Buddha was far far ahead of Muhammud in all sorts of things. It makes no sense at all. Dismissing so many other wise men, all the inequality, the overemphasis on organising, administration, the need to convert people, the desperation, not much at all makes much sense.

What I do find perplexing is that seemingly wise people stick with it. Heck, you got out, and you don't seem all that smart .... (just kidding). So either of a couple things are happening ... one is that I have higher expectations of folks ability to think, or .... there is something there that suits a certain sheep mentality, and that its all good for them. Without it, they might be drunken criminals, blind, diseased, and delusional, just like the rest of us. Skill, surely is on a continuum.
 
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Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Wow!
Some Predestination Christians actually do act and speak mostly as they please (although they deny it!) knowing that they and only they can be redeemed, and that no matter how good a life anybody else lives those folks are doomed, by predestination!
I worked with a chap who whose behaviour was apalling ... made inappropriate sexual comments to his Grade 4 students, stole money from the school, used people. Spoke a lot about his love for Jesus. That was the year I formally converted to Hinduism via name change, ritual. On or near the last day of school he had the gall to ask me of all people, if I thought he was a good Christian. I just let him have it, until he crept away. They didn't renew his contract, but he got a job with a private Christian school. About 6 months into the that, the principal got a call, looking for info on this guy. So the principal didn't hold back either. It's really quite the thing, that. Reminds me of criminals who stand before a judge claiming they've found Jesus.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
He's either right or He's wrong. There's no middle ground.

I think there is definitely a middle ground with religious leaders. All would have some truth to them, and all would have some poor ideas. Maybe Baha'u'llah was a fairly wise man with some good ideas mixed in with some poor ones. Same goes for Joseph Smith. Christ, Muhammed, anyone.

I guess I will never get this all or nothing sense of Abrahamic good/bad thinking. Not my paradigm. Take carpenters or doctors as an analogy ... some really good ones, highly skilled, could build the finest furniture, or fix a heart. Then there are those who couldn't hammer a single nail straight into a board, or a doctor who prescribes valium for the flu. Do you say those chaps are either carpenters, or doctors, or not?
 
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TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The World won't go backwards, it can only go forwards. Bahai was out of date almost as soon as it was written, methinks.

Yes it will not go backwards.

To be progressive is to Embrace God and His Laws for this age.

The future unfolds as per the direction given by God, we are blind to the Power unleashed.

Regards Tony
 
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