How are these Great Beings explained?

[Unveiled Artist]

Nothing needs to be changed but we need some new laws and guidance for this age.

Why do we need new laws? The laws are just fine how they are.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You posted this advice earlier, you do not like me smiling at you. Note no smile, no hug

Regards Tony

If you read all my posts at your timing without sarcasm and more reflective and learning, you will know this is not the case.

You cannot have peace without dialogue.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I am talking about the elephant as a whole and you are talking about the distinct parts that make up an elephant. In reality we need to consider both the parts and the whole elephant. That is the unity and diversity. We can't properly consider one without the other.

Did you consider the Buddhist part of the link I sent?

Blind men and an elephant - Wikipedia

I dont see a peace-issue regardless if we see parts of one distinct whole or a whole defined by distinct parts.

Its just two separate ways of seeing life. Nothing wrong with that. Why do we need to see one way over another to be at peace?

(I read the analogy. Thats just how Id interpret it if going by my values)

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Its not your faith. Its your communication.

Who said anything about asking or wanting others to submit to be a Baha'i, that is clearly their choice and their choice only with their life.

You said it in two sentences in one post. I just restated it. If I said it in your words, you think its an attack. Now I say it in mine, you are defensive.

It is easier to learn and be less stressed by a other when you are reflective in What they say rather than the persons saying it.

How do I embrace religion, I embrace the knowledge it is from the One Source. I love all of Gods Religions, Buddha inclusive

Its more, I embrace religion viewed by bahaullah. If you embraced individual religions, you wouldnt be bothered by one religion having No god and one that does.

 

[Vinayaka]

If you read all my posts at your timing without sarcasm and more reflective and learning, you will know this is not the case.

You cannot have peace without dialogue.

For me, (and I'm guessing for you too) this dialogue isn't really personal, it's about attempting to have better communication. An individual or individuals want to have communication in one direction only. So it's very similar to asking a student to look at you when you're having a discussion. All communication experts know that eye contact actually helps with oral communication.

Surely this planet would be better off if we could all communicate better.

I think you, Adrian, and others here, are excellent communicators. and other than occasionally getting a single word messed up (using two distinctive meanings) there is rarely an issue.If there is an issue, we usually can clear it up in a couple of posts.

But taking it personal only makes it worse. When I taught, there were kids that you really couldn't help much, because pointing out even the most obvious of errors would sent them off into a 20 minute hissy fit about you being overly critical. Perhaps its time to throw in the towel here, God knows we've tried long enough.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

For me, (and I'm guessing for you too) this dialogue isn't really personal, it's about attempting to have better communication. An individual or individuals want to have communication in one direction only. So it's very similar to asking a student to look at you when you're having a discussion. All communication experts know that eye contact actually helps with oral communication.

Surely this planet would be better off if we could all communicate better.

I think you, Adrian, and others here, are excellent communicators. and other than occasionally getting a single messed up (using two distinctive meanings) there is rarely an issue.

But taking it personal only makes it worse. When I taught, there were kids that you really couldn't help much, because pointing out even the most obvious of errors would sent them off into a 20 minute hissy fit about you being overly critical. Perhaps its time to throw in the towel here, God knows we've tried long enough.

Yeah. I dont have the patience to work with children. I mean, the adults I teach ESL to can be like kids not because they are but because if they dont understand they revert to their native language even when are supposed to speak english only. A lot of clapping, clicking the lights, or giving them the "expression."

 

[oldbadger]

Well done,nature is most likely in this world, the greatest teacher.

Regards Tony

It's the greatest Being.

 

[oldbadger]

But why would anyone want to resurrect a theocracy that is 3 1/2 thousand years old?

Since the sacrificial laws were repealed 2000 years ago, and if there could be a few repeals of the remaining 507, the Mosiac laws beat the Bahai laws hollow.

Where has Bahai got poor-law legislation to match the Mosaic laws? None, probably because their Greatr Beings were so wealthy in riches, status and position?

Yes, the Mosaic laws would need a lot of editing to fit with today's needs, but there is not one that did not either, strengthen, make successful, more cohesive, more social, more healthy for the whole people.

And they don't play about with spiritual pretense, either.

 

[oldbadger]

And we have lots of guidance, from all over. How can you say we need guidance when we already have it? It's like saying, 'I'm hungry' just after you eat.

There are literally tons of great spiritual teachers alive on this planet today who offer wonderful guidance on how to behave, what to do to prevent war, individual strategies for maintaining raw emotions. It's not that we need guidance, it's that we need to listen to the guidance we get.

You already know that I don't have a clue about Hindu.
@chinu is a Sikh who has posted some beautiful and thought provoking posts on RF. (I met him in London a few years back). Chinu has a guru who he visits .............
How different is Hindu from the Sikh way?

 

[Vinayaka]

You already know that I don't have a clue about Hindu.
@chinu is a Sikh who has posted some beautiful and thought provoking posts on RF. (I met him in London a few years back). Chinu has a guru who he visits .............
How different is Hindu from the Sikh way?

Some schools, at least in this regard with the personal touch, would be quite similar. Many folks have what are called kulagurus, or family gurus. The personal touch makes it so much better. But the Baha'i' have that too, with their UHJ. They can write a letter off, and get a personal response, as far as I know anyway.

In terms of philosophy, again, it depends on schools. Some Hindu schools might be quite close to Sikhism. Chinu or Aupmanyav would know more.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You never answered why you think Im asing you to compromise your belief?

I cant remedy the miscommunication if you dont tell me the problem (method towards peace).

There is no problem Carlita. I accept you have a Faith that is not motivated by God.

Is the problem that you want me to see your Faith through your eyes with no God in the mix?

I know many that feel all good comes from their own selves and appreciate the good that comes from them. My mind will not take God out of the process.

Thus you will read a writing see the beauty and feel that beauty light your soul and be happy in that beauty.

I am the same, but I thank God that beauty was given to my soul.

We both get to smile

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

If you read all my posts at your timing without sarcasm and more reflective and learning, you will know this is not the case.

You cannot have peace without dialogue.

Having fun is not sarcasm, but maybe you need to spend some time in Australia, maybe all our Humor can be seen as you do, we might be brought up on sarcasm? My wife laughted, I run a few things by her first.

Note - No Aussy humor with Carlita, No Smile, No Hugs......woops that was more...Silence!

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Its more, I embrace religion viewed by bahaullah. If you embraced individual religions, you wouldnt be bothered by one religion having No god and one that does.

Carlita, the bother is not mine. It appears it may bother you.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

It's the greatest Being.

Ha ha......Silence...Hooray I did it.

Regards Tony

 

[Unveiled Artist]

There is no problem Carlita. I accept you have a Faith that is not motivated by God.

Is the problem that you want me to see your Faith through your eyes with no God in the mix?

No. Thats like my trying to see compassion with god somewhere in the mix.

I'm asking you to take interest in learning about other people's views so that it would

a. Inhance the conversation so both parties are present
b. We learn new things about each other
c. It takes away of assumptions and more reflection and assertiveness

It isnt a bahai thing. I dont know if you do this in person, but for a stranger it is crucial so conversations will happen much smoothly.

I know many that feel all good comes from their own selves and appreciate the good that comes from them. My mind will not take God out of the process.

No one asked you too.

The thing is, you would know this if you are interested in what we have to say as well.

Thus you will read a writing see the beauty and feel that beauty light your soul and be happy in that beauty.

It isnt about you, though. I love music. My ex does not. I dont mind telling her which songs I like. I accept she does not like music.

I do not expect her to like music one day nor do I expect her to see it as beautiful. She told me she is glad I am her friend because I dont judge her.

Its one thing to talk to her about it if She likes. Its another to sing to her thinking she will "get with the rythm." Inappropriate expectations.

Having fun is not sarcasm, but maybe you need to spend some time in Australia, maybe all our Humor can be seen as you do, we might be brought up on sarcasm? My wife laughted, I run a few things by her first.

If you discuss more, Id get to know your humor. Humor is different all over the world. I got written up for just using an idiom in the US that the other party took as an offense.

Conversations are golden.

Note - No Aussy humor with Carlita, No Smile, No Hugs......woops that was more...Silence!

More talk. Less sarcasm.

"We" can tell when you are sarcastic.

Also, your wife, friends, and religious mates know you in person and/or share probably longetivity in getting to know each other.

Many RFiers see this as a debate forum. Fine.

If they are promoting one sided views, the yes.

If you are promoting peace among humanity, unity, and work together

The first step is at least seeing if everyone is on the Same page. Not right. Not wrong. Mutual understanding.

And listen to others.

No dialogue, no peace. (Sometimes silence is misqued as peace. It can mean avoidance or plan disagreement. It solves nothing if the two arent on the same page)

 

[oldbadger]

Ha ha......Silence...Hooray I did it.

Regards Tony

Wow, so you ended a conversation?

 

[siti]

Again, no one is duckng anything.

And yet you still haven't answered the question. What do you call it when someone persists in the mistaken belief that they are the messiah?

Thats not very logical if you thik about. Its like saying we should reject Christ because other peope round that time made false Messianic claims.

Hmmm! (stroking the chin) that black/white all or nothing thinking...

I eagerly await your arguments proving that Baha'u'llah is 'deluded.'

...(easing back into the doctor's armchair)...persecution complex perhaps...

Adrian - please read my comments more carefully - I did not say that we have to reject all because one might be false - I said if the assumption is made that one is deluded, the question must be asked of the others. Neither did I suggest that Baha'u'llah was deluded, I asked you tell me what you would call it if someone persisted in the incorrect belief that he was the messiah? You have (apparently deliberately because, as a medical practitioner with several year's psychiatric experience there is no way you do not know the answer) failed to answer that question which suggests to me you think the conclusion you are imputing to me about Baha'u'llah might have some merit.

Have you heard of Geschwind syndrome? The symptoms of this as manifested in some patients with temporal lobe epilepsy include compulsive writing or drawing, intense religious interest or experiences, altered sex drive (often decreased but sometimes increased) and the propensity to talk at length about trivial or irrelevant subjects.

Fyodor Dostoevsky (for example) is believed to have suffered this phenomenon - he wrote a lot - but you would hardly call him a madman.

That brings me to an important point I have already made earlier but that is well worth reiterating here. Even if a religious teacher were 'suffering' mental illness, does that automatically mean that their experiences were 'false'? Be careful how you answer that question because if, for example, you are not prepared to admit that Jesus may have suffered delusional episodes, what does that say about your attitude towards mental health? That God is not able to communicate with the mentally ill? What does that say about God?

It may be that what we see as a profound disadvantage in human social settings is in fact an attribute that enables certain individuals to be more "in touch" with the spiritual (on the one hand - such as - possibly - temporal lobe epilepsy) or rational (on the other - many brilliant minds have showed clear signs of autism). Socially stigmatized they might be - but they are certainly able to function at the highest levels otherwise.

Anyway, my point is that I don't think that 'delusion' or 'mental illness' should be considered as rude or accusatory remarks in a discussion about the origins of religions or religious experiences. The fact that they are seems to me to betray an outdated view of mental health that is entirely inappropriate for 21st century religion (or medicine).

 

[Unveiled Artist]

And yet you still haven't answered the question. What do you call it when someone persists in the mistaken belief that they are the messiah?

Hmmm! (stroking the chin) that black/white all or nothing thinking...

...(easing back into the doctor's armchair)...persecution complex perhaps...

Geschwind syndrome? Interesting. I learned something new about myself. I wonder how that is diagnosed, though. My old therapist said Id be perfect for Frued to speak with...having mental health issues and aware of why I have them and do at the same time.

 

[siti]

Geschwind syndrome? Interesting. I learned something new about myself. I wonder how that is diagnosed, though. My old therapist said Id be perfect for Frued to speak with...having mental health issues and aware of why I have them and do at the same time.

Diagnosis is way beyond my abilities and Geschwind syndrome is controversial - there is disagreement about whether it really is a neuropsychiatric disorder at all and whether the symptoms that it comprises are a TLE thing or more general...etc. But my point is not to immediately categorize anyone who shows the propensity to compulsive writing, intense religious experiences and babbling on in conversations as 'psychotic' or 'deluded' (a fair few RF members and myself very much included could easily fall into that category with those symptoms) but since psychiatric practice does acknowledge that these behaviors may be symptomatic of mental health issues, surely any meaningful search for truth must acknowledge the possibility that people given to the most extreme manifestations of such traits might indeed have been experiencing neuropsychiatric effects. In my opinion, that does not mean that either their experiences or their teachings are not 'true'. But it certainly would tell us something profound about "God" - whether there actually is one or not! That's why I find this particular subject fascinating - if only we could overcome the (at least partly religious) 'demonization' of mental 'illness' and accept some of these things as part of what it is (meant to be?) to be human. After all, I think in the UK, 1 in 4 people will experience mental health issues serious enough to seek professional medical help (and I'm guessing there are a fair few who suffer in silence without ever going to the doctor).

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Diagnosis is way beyond my abilities and Geschwind syndrome is controversial - there is disagreement about whether it really is a neuropsychiatric disorder at all and whether the symptoms that it comprises are a TLE thing or more general...etc. But my point is not to immediately categorize anyone who shows the propensity to compulsive writing, intense religious experiences and babbling on in conversations as 'psychotic' or 'deluded' (a fair few RF members and myself very much included could easily fall into that category with those symptoms) but since psychiatric practice does acknowledge that these behaviors may be symptomatic of mental health issues, surely any meaningful search for truth must acknowledge the possibility that people given to the most extreme manifestations of such traits might indeed have been experiencing neuropsychiatric effects. In my opinion, that does not mean that either their experiences or their teachings are not 'true'. But it certainly would tell us something profound about "God" - not that this has not been acknowledged in past revelations...e.g. (1 Corinthians 1:27; 2 Corinthians 11:23 (NIV))

It actually does help put a lot of answers down my path. Delusions? My therapist said he is only worried about three three things: are you in danger to self, others, or cannot take care of yourself.

Jesus, just from scriptures, sounds like a regular human to me. He gets angry when most people would. Fustrated as most children. Finding himself as mid-age adults usually do.

Many people live listening to voices not there. Though they arent medicated etc because they dont fall under those hre categories.

Id assume delusion is the same way. If jesus was delusioned, that doesnt change who he. I agree with you about the words. I just find it interesting why someone's mental state can devalue the same thing said of a person with a healthy mind (if such a person this life exist)