{Hindus only} Getting over religious conditioning.

[DeviChaaya]

Do I still carry baggage? You bet your bottom dollar I do! I am constantly worried about a few things.

1) what if I'm wrong? What if my devotion to Mataji is wrong? What if I'm mislead by the Devil?
2) if I have been mislead by the devil and this is all an epic world wide delusion we have does that mean I'm going to hell?
3) Jehovah and Allah are not nice deities. I can believe that they are real and misleading billions of humans but I can't worship them... does that mean I'm going to hell?
4) Hell, the idea of eternal unending torment frightens me.

I must trust that Shiva led me right; that He is not misleading me in guiding me to His beloved Shakti. But sometimes I have dreams where I am being chased and I chant the panchakshari mantra and it wards off those chasing forces... sometimes I am not being chased but visited by creatures full of malevolence who take the forms of lost loved ones. I cling to the panchakshari mantra and even if I must scream it at them I hold dearly to it and it dispels them... but in the old days when Shiva was just encircling me with His noose I would often dream that a cruel creature (sole kind of Christian demon/devil) was after me and I would mumble OM namah shivaya and it wouldn't work... so I would resort to calling out to Jesus. I think maybe I was being torn between the two at that point and it was only when I severed my ties with Christianity in all forms that I was able to slip that particular noose.

I still have doubts. I still have worries but I must place my thoughts and concerns at Amma's feet and beg that She relieve me of them.

It's not unusual, Starry. Not all of us can be like our beloved Vinayaka ji.

 

[Aupmanyav]

continuing - Famous Kayasthas: Subhas Chandra Bose, Freedom fighter; Swami Vivekananda, needs no introduction; Jayaprakash Narayan, public benefator and revolutionary; Rajendra Prasad, first President of India; Lal Bahadur Shastri, second Prime Minister of India and beloved of masses; Premchand, famed short-story writer and novelist; Mahadevi Varma, most famous Indian poetess.

 

[Vinayaka]

Do I still carry baggage? You bet your bottom dollar I do! I am constantly worried about a few things.

Certainly it is much healthier to recognise that you have baggage and then attempt to deal with it then to go on denying you have it. Huge step in the right direction.

I've observed people 'going through a phase' as their parents would say, and the parents were correct. Lots of people have doubts about their own religion, and go for a stroll through some alternative gardens before realising home was what they were looking for all along. That's all good too. I remeber way back when my friends and I started this sojourn. There was a strong Catholic amongst us. Fortunately for her, she recognised right away, that 'as much a s I'd love too, I can't do this. I'm just too Catholic."

In our (we Hindus) particular case, occasionally we notice other peoples subconscious minds far better than they do themselves. So when they say, 'I'm a Hindu!" we sort of do an eye-roll. "Yeah, right. Then why do you think Sunday is the holy day, want to argue all the time, and react strongly to certain very Hindu customs?"

 

[Sw. Vandana Jyothi]

Starry, from day one on this forum, your "existential plight" has moved me to such compassion for the turmoil your chanchala (wavering) mind is putting you through. Your appeal for relief is heard by the Heart of God in all of us, I assure you. For myself, I keep wanting to rush in to "fix" it but it's been forbidden. This repair job is yours and God's to accomplish together and the victory will be so sweet. It WILL happen.

Although the tool of your mind is not functioning properly, like a lot of us when confronted by confusion, you keep trying to use it to climb out of this dilemma. It won't happen because your chitta (similar to a wax platter holding color crayon impressions that melts and then hardens, solidifying concepts in the subconscious--whether they're right or wrong!) has been peppered, "colored" as it were for years by fear-mongering non-knowers of God. That's all it is, Starry. You've received and imbibed wrong thoughts since childhood, repeated over and over, on a subject of utmost importance to you that you figured out later, that you already KNOW is a big, humongous bolus of crap (hellfire and eternal damnation, a vengeful God, etc., etc). No wonder you want to throw up. Trust yourself, your knowledge, your heart, your experiences to date, go ahead and upchuck the stuff that doesn't FEED you. You only have to give yourself permission; no one else's is needed. Not the ministers, not the priests, not the rabbis, not the imams, not the acharyas, nobody's. Just yours.

Please try letting go of everything you think you "know" AND "don't know" so you can feel, cling to and nurture the seed of your faith that there is a knowing, caring, loving Personal God waiting to receive YOUR embrace and offer one in return. One by one, every thought or feeling that doesn't fit with that Reality should be discarded. Starry, God IS unconditional, highest Supreme Love. Just like the sun, it shines on the palace of a king and the hut of a beggar equally, absolutely without distinction. The sun knows no other job, it only knows to shine. If you are not using Taraka mantra to help you get your head around this, I can categorically state without any fear of contradiction that you are trying to dig a hole for a septic tank with a shovel instead of a backhoe. It can be done but unless you're trying to buff up your biceps, why?

IMO, you are at a junction on your journey that everybody gets to. That everybody has to get to... and that is questioning what you've read in this or that book and heard from this or that person about God and His/Her ways. You are on track in other words! All that stuff is needed, well maybe, but you can read and listen until you drop dead (and many do) and still will not be one micron closer to experiencing God. And that is the purpose of all the wisdom whizzed by the true Masters representing all the traditions. They don't want you to take their word for it. They want you to experience the Truth for yourself. What practices helped you get on the wagon and look within yourself? Get back on that wagon, knuckle down and work the program again. Don't take your eye off the prize and don't get distracted by all the din, inside or out. Remember the story about the prisoner who was offered escape by the king? He was blindfolded, told to walk around the palace wall, feeling as he went for the one door to escape by. Big palace, lots of bumps in the wall, noisy environment. He was doing OK until a swarm of mosquitos came to harass him. Took both hands off the wall to swat them, kept on walking (slowly and just for a second, mind you) but completely bypassed the exit door. No need to author a new version of this story, Starry.

You are so loved.

 

[Jainarayan]

Chitragupta is not a judge. He is the account keeper.

Right, that's what I was messing with Starry about... "balancing the books". But I notice he did use "judge".

 

[Jainarayan]

1) what if I'm wrong? What if my devotion to Mataji is wrong? What if I'm mislead by the Devil?
2) if I have been mislead by the devil and this is all an epic world wide delusion we have does that mean I'm going to hell?
3) Jehovah and Allah are not nice deities. I can believe that they are real and misleading billions of humans but I can't worship them... does that mean I'm going to hell?
4) Hell, the idea of eternal unending torment frightens me.

Well if it's any consolation to you, the devil and hell have no basis in the bible. Those are add-ons, plug-ins, if you will, created later for the sole purpose (no pun intended there) of frightening the peanuts out of people's M&Ms.

The wording in Matthew 25:46 is "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life”. Even in Matthew Matthew 13:50 "... and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth" is a parable of fishermen separating the good fish and the bad fish in their catch. Using the metaphor of the furnace is hyperbole, something Jesus was a master of, because that's what his audience could relate to.

Now, so as not to make this an apologetics for Christianity and turn the discussion to it, but to try to assuage your fears, keep in mind that the interpretations are indeed for controlling people. There is no hell or devil.

 

[Shantanu]

Starry, from day one on this forum, your "existential plight" has moved me to such compassion for the turmoil your chanchala (wavering) mind is putting you through. Your appeal for relief is heard by the Heart of God in all of us, I assure you. For myself, I keep wanting to rush in to "fix" it but it's been forbidden. This repair job is yours and God's to accomplish together and the victory will be so sweet. It WILL happen.

Although the tool of your mind is not functioning properly, like a lot of us when confronted by confusion, you keep trying to use it to climb out of this dilemma. It won't happen because your chitta (similar to a wax platter holding color crayon impressions that melts and then hardens, solidifying concepts in the subconscious--whether they're right or wrong!) has been peppered, "colored" as it were for years by fear-mongering non-knowers of God. That's all it is, Starry. You've received and imbibed wrong thoughts since childhood, repeated over and over, on a subject of utmost importance to you that you figured out later, that you already KNOW is a big, humongous bolus of crap (hellfire and eternal damnation, a vengeful God, etc., etc). No wonder you want to throw up. Trust yourself, your knowledge, your heart, your experiences to date, go ahead and upchuck the stuff that doesn't FEED you. You only have to give yourself permission; no one else's is needed. Not the ministers, not the priests, not the rabbis, not the imams, not the acharyas, nobody's. Just yours.

Please try letting go of everything you think you "know" AND "don't know" so you can feel, cling to and nurture the seed of your faith that there is a knowing, caring, loving Personal God waiting to receive YOUR embrace and offer one in return. One by one, every thought or feeling that doesn't fit with that Reality should be discarded. Starry, God IS unconditional, highest Supreme Love. Just like the sun, it shines on the palace of a king and the hut of a beggar equally, absolutely without distinction. The sun knows no other job, it only knows to shine. If you are not using Taraka mantra to help you get your head around this, I can categorically state without any fear of contradiction that you are trying to dig a hole for a septic tank with a shovel instead of a backhoe. It can be done but unless you're trying to buff up your biceps, why?

IMO, you are at a junction on your journey that everybody gets to. That everybody has to get to... and that is questioning what you've read in this or that book and heard from this or that person about God and His/Her ways. You are on track in other words! All that stuff is needed, well maybe, but you can read and listen until you drop dead (and many do) and still will not be one micron closer to experiencing God. And that is the purpose of all the wisdom whizzed by the true Masters representing all the traditions. They don't want you to take their word for it. They want you to experience the Truth for yourself. What practices helped you get on the wagon and look within yourself? Get back on that wagon, knuckle down and work the program again. Don't take your eye off the prize and don't get distracted by all the din, inside or out. Remember the story about the prisoner who was offered escape by the king? He was blindfolded, told to walk around the palace wall, feeling as he went for the one door to escape by. Big palace, lots of bumps in the wall, noisy environment. He was doing OK until a swarm of mosquitos came to harass him. Took both hands off the wall to swat them, kept on walking (slowly and just for a second, mind you) but completely bypassed the exit door. No need to author a new version of this story, Starry.

You are so loved.

Out of your compassion you have devoted a lot of time and concern here but where is the fruitful advice? You have observed that the tool of Starry's mind is not functioning properly. That is good but how does he restore normal human self and rid himself of his self-inflicted wounds like being gay: religion means living according to how Nature intends for us to procreate. That is the first thing that Starry needs to attend to in my honest opinion.

 

[Sw. Vandana Jyothi]

...Those are add-ons, plug-ins, if you will, created later for the sole purpose (no pun intended there) of frightening the peanuts out of people's M&Ms.

Now, so as not to make this an apologetics for Christianity and turn the discussion to it, but to try to assuage your fears, keep in mind that the interpretations are indeed for controlling people.

Hope you don't mind my cherry-picking your post, Thorbjornji (while it lasts, that name ) but your metaphor is exquisitely written and HILARIOUS! And I agree wholeheartedly with you, garbage is heaped on the devotees by reps with agendas (true of every religion) for the purpose of controlling them. Ignorance is costly to one's spiritual effort and if an individual doesn't do something to end it, he will just continue to pay and pay.

 

[StarryNightshade]

Out of your compassion you have devoted a lot of time and concern here but where is the fruitful advice? You have observed that the tools of Starry's mind is not functioning properly.

Not functioning properly? I don't think you meant for it to sound as insulting as it did, but overcoming cultural baggage and being self-aware of it isn't the same as ones mind not "functioning properly".

Yes, I've been having severe doubts and wondering where I belong in Hinduism lately, but there's nothing inherently wrong with that. It just means that I need to let God's grace guide me where I need to be.

That is good but how does he restore normal human self and rid oneself of self-inflicted wounds like being gay: religion means living according to how Nature intends for us to procreate. That is the first thing that Starry needs to attend to in my honest opinion.

Being gay does not constitute "self inflicted wounds". Quite frankly, we humans need to slow down on the whole procreation thing, but that's neither here nor there.

 

[Sw. Vandana Jyothi]

Out of your compassion you have devoted a lot of time and concern here but where is the fruitful advice? You have observed that the tools of Starry's mind is not functioning properly. That is good but how does he restore normal human self and rid oneself of self-inflicted wounds like being gay: religion means living according to how Nature intends for us to procreate. That is the first thing that Starry needs to attend to in my honest opinion.

I am having extreme and visceral reactions to your assertions here. Please take your own advice and tend first to the things YOU need to do, Shantanu. Heal yourself. I'll repeat the fruitful advice so Starry can hear it above the din and maybe you will hear it, too: chant Rama mantra, affirm the Truth of Love and let crap like Shantanu's statements roll off your being using the oil of devotion. Wrap your mind around this, Starry: the Truth is both weapon and shield.

 

[Jainarayan]

Hope you don't mind my cherry-picking your post,

Not at all. For good or ill, cherry-picking my posts keeps me honest and on my toes.

Thorbjornji (while it lasts, that name )

I'm truly that transparent!?

but your metaphor is exquisitely written and HILARIOUS!

Thank you!

 

[Sw. Vandana Jyothi]

I'm truly that transparent!?

While I'd like to appear as if my third eye is just so functional all the time, alas I confess you tipped us off with this:

Religion: Hinduism, but NO name change! (um, not making any promises)​

 

[Shantanu]

Not functioning properly? I don't think you meant for it to sound as insulting as it did, but overcoming cultural baggage and being self-aware of it isn't the same as ones mind not "functioning properly".

Yes, I've been having severe doubts and wondering where I belong in Hinduism lately, but there's nothing inherently wrong with that. It just means that I need to let God's grace guide me where I need to be.



Being gay does not constitute "self inflicted wounds". Quite frankly, we humans need to slow down on the whole procreation thing, but that's neither here nor there.

I really do not understand why you are looking to be a Hindu? Can you explain? Can you tell me if you are an atheist or a theist?

Yoga is central to Hinduism in which we turn our minds to the rationale of how humans should live. It is not true that that procreation is neither here nor there. Let me explain. Procreation word alludes to Creation of the universe by God. If one wishes to find God and to serve God one needs to appreciate all aspects of Nature and counsel oneself that being with another person of the same sex is morally repugnant because God created man and woman (as over 90 per cent of world population live by) as evolution took shape. A person who goes against God's Nature is just storing trouble for himself or herself. And it is easy to give up being gay. All one says to oneself is that I am not going to be a homosexual even if it means going without sex altogether. Then only can the person can understand God with regard to how He intends us humans to live. Of course if a person has no interest in seeking out God's wishes he may be an atheist (it is not clear from your posts if you are an atheist?), he is free to be a homosexual and there are now countries which legitimise gay sex by allowing marriage between people of the same sex. But do not look for inspiration within Hinduism to justify being gay. Gay people are kept at the margins of Hindu society in India.

 

[Sw. Vandana Jyothi]

I remember what Guruji used to say to us devotees about how and what to listen. He would counsel, "Use your faculty of discrimination. Remember Lord Ganesha. Recall how He is constantly fanning his ears to dissipate gossip and nonsense. Remember Lord Ganesha always."

 

[Shantanu]

I am having extreme and visceral reactions to your assertions here. Please take your own advice and tend first to the things YOU need to do, Shantanu. Heal yourself. I'll repeat the fruitful advice so Starry can hear it above the din and maybe you will hear it, too: chant Rama mantra, affirm the Truth of Love and let crap like Shantanu's statements roll off your being using the oil of devotion. Wrap your mind around this, Starry: the Truth is both weapon and shield.

As you say if you are having extreme and visceral reactions to simple facts concerning ethics of living that is your problem.

 

[Jainarayan]

While I'd like to appear as if my third eye is just so functional all the time, alas I confess you tipped us off with this:

Religion: Hinduism, but NO name change! (um, not making any promises)​

D'oh! Hoist on my own petard!

 

[Jainarayan]

If one wishes to find God and to serve God one needs to appreciate all aspects of Nature

You contradict yourself later:

and counsel oneself that being with another person of the same sex is morally repugnant because God created man and woman (as over 90 per cent of world population live by) as evolution took shape. A person who goes against God's Nature is just storing trouble for himself or herself.

That sounds as if it came from the pulpit of Pat Robertson himself.

And it is easy to give up being gay.

NARTH much?

 

[Sw. Vandana Jyothi]

As you say if you are having extreme and visceral reactions to simple facts concerning ethics of living that is your problem.

I own my reactions, yes, so whatever they are (righteous anger or otherwise) is my problem. But you err when you say I'm reacting to your so-called facts. I'm reacting to you intentionally throwing a knife at a friend via my post but straight past my cage. I'm feeling very young when I say, "How DARE you!" That is so adharma I would and will never remain silent for that. Neither Starry nor I nor anyone deserves the biases you served up here and certainly not by the method you chose. Just plain ugly.

 

[Shantanu]

You contradict yourself later

Homosexuality is born of mental conditioning and so has increasingly become a western phenomenon that the secularists are trying to induce into other cultures around the world. Hinduism sees that there are going to be people with genetic disorders who we just simply walk on bye from and let perish. Human life is not that important that we take care of everybody.

 

[Shantanu]

I own my reactions, yes, so whatever they are (righteous anger or otherwise) is my problem. But you err when you say I'm reacting to your so-called facts. I'm reacting to you intentionally throwing a knife at a friend via my post but straight past my cage. I'm feeling very young when I say, "How DARE you!" That is so adharma I would and will never remain silent for that. Neither Starry nor I nor anyone deserves the biases you served up here and certainly not by the method you chose. Just plain ugly.

I live by my own sense of dharma (duties and righteous actions) which sees that crap under the umbrella of Hinduism needs to be identified by probing whenever the opportunity arises.