{Hindus only} Getting over religious conditioning.

[Shantanu]

Well, I'm sorry, but what you think is compatible or not with religion or theism is irrelevant.

There are plenty of LGBT HIndus who are devout and faithful.

There are plenty of religious leaders (famous and not well known) who don't condemn LGBT.

I am a theist, as I believe there is a God which created us and sustains us. There is no reason for me to believe that being gay somehow makes me incompatible with believing that.

Of course, in Hinduism every person has the right to construct his or her own religion. I am sure you will do so in the end even if there currently exists no sect or sampradaya within Hinduism who you can follow.

 

[Jainarayan]

Aup, do you know of any Hindu god or goddess who are gay and whom gay people should therefore follow and worship? Perhaps there is a sect or sampradaya catering for gay people in India who can still be called Hindus.

Well... Vishnu did take on a female avatar, Mohinī.

In the Bhagavata Purana, after Vishnu deceives the demons by his maya female form, Shiva wishes to see the bewildering Mohini again. When Vishnu agrees and reveals his Mohini form, Shiva runs crazily behind Mohini, "bereft of shame and robbed by her of good sense," while the abandoned wife Parvati (Uma) looks on. Shiva is overcome by Kāma (love and desire or Kamadeva, the god of love and desire). His "unfailing" seed escapes and falls on ground creating ores of silver and gold. Afterwards, Vishnu comes to his true form and reveals that his maya (illusory power) cannot be surpassed even by Shiva. Shiva then extols Vishnu's power.[13][26] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohini#Relationship_with_Shiva

To add to the fun, if one thinks about it, Shiva and Vishnu are brothers-in-law. The reason Durgā is called Nārāyanī is because she took birth at the same time as Krishna as his sister, to delude Kamsa. Therefore Vishnu and Durgā are brother and sister, Shiva is Durgā's husband, making Shiva and Vishnu brothers-in-law.

Moreover:

• Ayyappan was born of the union between Shiva and Vishnu/Mohini.
• Iravan is a deity worshiped by hijras, called Aravanis, "brides of Iravan". Some folk tales also relate that Mohinī married Iravan.

So, don't be so quick to claim that Hinduism is not full of gender-bending deities and cults.

 

[Shantanu]

Well... Vishnu did take on a female avatar, Mohinī.


To add to the fun, if one thinks about it, Shiva and Vishnu are brothers-in-law. The reason Durgā is called Nārāyanī is because she took birth at the same time as Krishna as his sister, to delude Kamsa. Therefore Vishnu and Durgā are brother and sister, Shiva is Durgā's husband, making Shiva and Vishnu brothers-in-law.

Moreover:

• Ayyappan was born of the union between Shiva and Vishnu/Mohini.
• Iravan is a deity worshiped by hijras, called Aravanis, "brides of Iravan". Some folk tales also relate that Mohinī married Iravan.

So, don't be so quick to claim that Hinduism is not full of gender-bending deities and cults.

Did Vishnu engage in homosexual activity with another male? Did Mohini engage in homosexual activity with another female? Was not Ayyappan born by the union of Shiva and Mohini? Are not hijras physically deformed in terms of their sexual organs?

 

[Jainarayan]

Did Vishnu engage in homosexual activity with another male? Did Mohini engage in homosexual activity with another female? Was not Ayyappan born by the union of Shiva and Mohini? Are not hijras physically deformed in terms of their sexual organs?

You're missing the point.

 

[Shantanu]

You're missing the point.

The point is that there are no sects, sampradayas, or deities within Hinduism for physically normal homosexuals to worship or just being drawn to so as to start calling themselves Hindus.

 

[DeviChaaya]

The point is that there are no sects, sampradayas, or deities within Hinduism for physically normal homosexuals to worship or just being drawn to so as to start calling themselves Hindus.

Careful, @Shantanu , your prejudices will destroy you. There is nothing in the Vedas or even the puranas that condemns homosexuality. It is only in the later law scriptures which do not apply to this point in time that there are condemnations. But too you keep rejecting our offers; nothing is good enough for a bigot and a bigot is never good enough for acceptance.

 

[Vinayaka]

All people would be welcome at the temple I go to. Same for the sampradaya I follow. These guys ... http://www.galva108.org/ are a great support group, or so I hear. Most people will have heard of them. I brought a gay friend to my temple, and she loved it there.

I think the core here is the 'I' identification. We are not the body. We are not the gender. We are not sexual orientation.

We are souls, on sojourns back to God. At the core of that, if you're an advaitin, you are God. This has nothing to do with hair colour, skin colour, height, weight, language you speak, state you're from, your gender, your age, or any other of the countless other external and relatively minor factors the mind can attach itself to.

That's a core teaching of Hinduism. That's what brings the joy, the drive to moksha, the comfort, the light, the sparks, the unconditional love for all.

Karma is a core tenet. To hate is to be hated. To love is to be loved.

Hatred may be part of some Hindu's Hinduism, but it most definitely isn't part of mine.

 

[sayak83]

Prejudice against homosexuals has very little to do with Hinduism.
http://www.hinduismtoday.com/modules/smartsection/item.php?itemid=5650
It is a fact that people want to justify their bigotry in the name of some authority, and Hinduism is a good scapegoat here.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Aup, do you know of any Hindu god or goddess who are gay and whom gay people should therefore follow and worship?

I would say many. In Gujarat you have Bahuchara mata. Bahuchara means one who has many 'stands' (like in one-night stand). In Andhra Pradesh you have Yellamma, In Tamilnadu you have Iravan. There might be others too. Whether a person is heterosexual or LGBTQ, it does not make any difference. All people worship these Gods and Goddesses, and they are very/immensely popular. Why should the gay people have only one God? Can't they Worship Vishnu, Shiva or other deities of Hinduism.

Bahuchara mata, Bahuchara temple (there was an image with crowds but it was larger, so I slected a smaller image), Yellamma, Iravan, Yellamma crowds are mind-boggling, Yellamma temple,Iravan devotee at Koovagam festival.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

As a Catholic, I don't think I was ever all that afraid of hell, honestly. I was mostly disappointed and ashamed of myself for failing to live up to the Catholic standard (which is absurd and impossible to begin with).I really wanted to fit in. I already figured I was going to hell. So, whatever. Lol. I viewed the Labyrinth from Hellraiser (it's the Cenobite's domain) as my idea of Heaven for a time, anyway. (I think one of the underlying reasons I was drawn to Catholicism in the first place was the sadomasochism of it.)

So I've never really experienced this intense fear of hell. But I wasn't really raised as much of anything. My mom was a Christian, but we rarely went to church and she had her own rather New Age beliefs aside from that. We actually never went to church until we moved to Ohio when I was about 7/8 and we went to an uncle's church for a time, but stopped because we didn't like it. We tried some other churches after that, but didn't like that either until we tried a Catholic cathedral when I was 16 and it that was my idea. So religion has only ever been as important in my life as I make it. (I converted to Catholicism in my mid-teens and it was my own decision to do so.)

 

[Shantanu]

Careful, @Shantanu , your prejudices will destroy you. There is nothing in the Vedas or even the puranas that condemns homosexuality. It is only in the later law scriptures which do not apply to this point in time that there are condemnations. But too you keep rejecting our offers; nothing is good enough for a bigot and a bigot is never good enough for acceptance.

I follow the principles of satya-advaita in which I seek the truth and accomodate myself in that truth. That truth discovered God as the source of all knowledge. He made it clear to me that homosexuality is a choice that certain people make to destroy the Nature that He has created. I go by that knowledge, whether or not you consider that bigotry. Others who may wish to practice their homosexuality are free to do so without concerning themselves with the beliefs that I hold. Aup has given some indications of the gods (Bahuchara Mata, Yellama) whose sexuality may be conducive to gay followers; perhaps also Iravan. @Jainarayan and @StarryNightshade should take note of these suggestions to see which direction they should take. But for me they are guna consciousness gods and have no powers in reality except to plant thoughts in the minds of their followers. The only God with powers to overrule and change human destiny is Sri Krishna as Creator and Preserver of the universe. One needs to transcend the gunas to reach Sri Krishna. The whole point of my postings is to point out to gay people that they are free to select any gods and goddesses they like to follow and worship and create their own sect and sampradaya but these will not be blessed by God Sri Krishna who is the only Entity that I relate to when I talk about theism.

No power on Earth can destroy me for I live by pristine truth. When I raise questions it is because the views held by others do not make sense to me. Take your own religion of Shakta in which you gave a description of Maa Lakshmi, when the vast majority of Hindus have never called Lakshmi 'Maa' as if she wil love and protect her child. No such protection exists. Lakhsmi is only a guna consciousness goddess that people tune into, just like millions of other gods and goddess that people can create for themselves. To point that out is stating the facts that feminists who wish to destroy Nature do not like and so want to perpetuate the falsehoods to suit their feminist Shakti agenda that discounts God the Creator and Preserver of the universe. God Sri Krishna can be approached by females through Durga alone and she is not Shakti but the encapsulation of God in the feminine form. Sri Krishna arranged it like that so that women would still be able to worship God.

I have a conception of Hinduism and strive to get all facts out in the open for civilised discussion. Your post is insulting and uncivilised. You should apologise.

 

[DeviChaaya]

As I said before and will repeat: nothing but your own opinion is good enough for you for the bigot cannot see outside his glass shell. He does not realise that that glass is actually a two way mirror; I can see your bigotry but you cannot.

Thank yoy so much for insulting not just myself but also a vast majority of Sri Vaishnavas, Hare Krishnas and Shakta with your bigotry. As a gay person myself I will not be commenting on your foolish views any longer; Mataji is both immanent and transcendent, within and without Her creation. As She is within me there is no way I can be unnatural.

 

[Shantanu]

As I said before and will repeat: nothing but your own opinion is good enough for you for the bigot cannot see outside his glass shell. He does not realise that that glass is actually a two way mirror; I can see your bigotry but you cannot.

Thank yoy so much for insulting not just myself but also a vast majority of Sri Vaishnavas, Hare Krishnas and Shakta with your bigotry. As a gay person myself I will not be commenting on your foolish views any longer; Mataji is both immanent and transcendent, within and without Her creation. As She is within me there is no way I can be unnatural.

The Mataji you worship is within you as a guna consciousness goddess but it is not Lakshmi who is the goddess of wealth and the consort of Vishnu the rajasic god. They go together and Lakshmi does not exist as a Shakta goddess. Kali is the Shakta goddess.

 

[Shantanu]

I would say many. In Gujarat you have Bahuchara mata. Bahuchara means one who has many 'stands' (like in one-night stand). In Andhra Pradesh you have Yellamma, In Tamilnadu you have Iravan. There might be others too. Whether a person is heterosexual or LGBTQ, it does not make any difference. All people worship these Gods and Goddesses, and they are very/immensely popular. Why should the gay people have only one God? Can't they Worship Vishnu, Shiva or other deities of Hinduism.

Bahuchara mata, Bahuchara temple (there was an image with crowds but it was larger, so I slected a smaller image), Yellamma, Iravan, Yellamma crowds are mind-boggling, Yellamma temple,Iravan devotee at Koovagam festival.

Aup, we have three gays in the Hindu DIR community in StarryNightshade, Jainarayan and Devichaaya, unless more come up in the meantime. When people worship a god or goddess they must define what that god or goddess represents. If a person has gay practices but worships Vishnu or Lakshmi that is like a bastardisation of Hinduism. That is why when I was brought up in India we were told what different gods and goddesses represent. I have no problem with gays worshipping Iravan or Yellama if everyone in Andhra Pradesh and Tamil Nadu accept that these gods do not care about the sexual behaviour of their followers. But it would be wrong for a rajasic god Vishnu who has Lakshmi as his consort to be worshipped as if he supports gayness.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Shantanu, Gods gave them that inclination/orientation. Why should we blame them? The worship of Lord Vishnu or the Mother will lead them to punyas. Why should we block them? If we do that we would ourselves be doing an act of sin.

 

[Shantanu]

Shantanu, Gods gave them that inclination. Why should we blame them? The worship of Lord Vishnu or the Mother will lead them to punyas. Why should we block them? If we do that we would ourselves be doing an act of sin.

We must block western influences that serve to bastardise our religion in order to:
(1) protect the sentiments of the vast majority of followers of traditional gods like Vishnu and Lakshmi in India who will otherwise get confused by these injections to start wondering that their gods are not what Hindus generally accepted that they were; and
(2) We must protect Hinduism and safeguard the coherence of our religion by having a rational conception of all its strands. The BJP government should faciliatate such an attempt through the Hindu Defence League.

 

[StarryNightshade]

As a Catholic, I don't think I was ever all that afraid of hell, honestly. I was mostly disappointed and ashamed of myself for failing to live up to the Catholic standard (which is absurd and impossible to begin with)

I think that'a a fair amount of what I've been going through as well: being disappointed in myself if (and when) I fail to live up to my teacher or Godbrother's standards. Which I had briefly mentioned in an earlier post.

For example: I don't always chant for do puja everyday, even though I'm supposed to. School has been insane and I've been feeling a spiritual dryness for the past few weeks. For some Hindus, this is just something that will pass. For others, this is something that will send you to naraka/hell.

Another example: I'm vegetarian, and actively avoid meat, but if I eat something that has a little bit of fish in it (weather by accident or if I had no choice), I wouldn't freak out about it. Again, for some this is not a big deal, and for others this makes one "impure".

 

[Sw. Vandana Jyothi]

I think that'a a fair amount of what I've been going through as well: being disappointed in myself if (and when) I fail to live up to my teacher or Godbrother's standards. Which I had briefly mentioned in an earlier post.

For example: I don't always chant for do puja everyday, even though I'm supposed to. School has been insane and I've been feeling a spiritual dryness for the past few weeks. For some Hindus, this is just something that will pass. For others, this is something that will send you to naraka/hell.

Another example: I'm vegetarian, and actively avoid meat, but if I eat something that has a little bit of fish in it (weather by accident or if I had no choice), I wouldn't freak out about it. Again, for some this is not a big deal, and for others this makes one "impure".

It is strictly our own mind which has the capacity to "make a heaven of hell" or vice versa in our field of awareness. King Bali did juuuust fine "down there"--as long as he had his Lord's Foot down there with him. And that's how it should be in every loka we visit or are ushered to. It matters far more to God what comes out of our mouths motivated by heart (hint, hint to another poster here) than what goes in it. Before wrapping oneself in all the negative vibes attached to the word "impure," question what it means. The reason vegetarianism and other food caveats are recommended to seekers is because the buildup of toxins by eating foods considered anathema to the goal of Self-realization prevents or distorts the rise of shakti kundalini much beyond first or second chakra. But the consumption of these kinds of foods does not violate one of the four arthas (i.e., kama) because it does bring, for some, a form of pleasure. The whole of the spiritual endeavor can almost be summed up as this: we rapidly (or gradually, God's not in a hurry if we aren't--ref. mumukshutva) figure out that surrendering those kinds of pleasures (and votes for rebirth) to take up the pursuit of a different kind of "pleasure" altogether is the correct thing to do... for ourselves.

You're already grokking the path to peace, Starry. Carry on. Among others (of course!), it's our "freak out" button which has to be disabled permanently.

 

[Jainarayan]

If a person has gay practices but worships Vishnu or Lakshmi that is like a bastardisation of Hinduism. ...

But it would be wrong for a rajasic god Vishnu who has Lakshmi as his consort to be worshipped as if he supports gayness.

Oh my Gods! Wow, just wow. I think you destroyed any shreds of credibility you may have had. Not to mention the hubris in pontificating on who can worship whom and speaking for Lord Vishnu and Maa Lakshmi.

I think I'll go cry now and collapse in a corner into a quivering whimpering mass of protoplasm.

OK, I'm over it.

 

[sayak83]

I follow the principles of satya-advaita in which I seek the truth and accomodate myself in that truth. That truth discovered God as the source of all knowledge. He made it clear to me that homosexuality is a choice that certain people make to destroy the Nature that He has created. I go by that knowledge, whether or not you consider that bigotry. Others who may wish to practice their homosexuality are free to do so without concerning themselves with the beliefs that I hold. Aup has given some indications of the gods (Bahuchara Mata, Yellama) whose sexuality may be conducive to gay followers; perhaps also Iravan. @Jainarayan and @StarryNightshade should take note of these suggestions to see which direction they should take. But for me they are guna consciousness gods and have no powers in reality except to plant thoughts in the minds of their followers. The only God with powers to overrule and change human destiny is Sri Krishna as Creator and Preserver of the universe. One needs to transcend the gunas to reach Sri Krishna. The whole point of my postings is to point out to gay people that they are free to select any gods and goddesses they like to follow and worship and create their own sect and sampradaya but these will not be blessed by God Sri Krishna who is the only Entity that I relate to when I talk about theism.

No power on Earth can destroy me for I live by pristine truth. When I raise questions it is because the views held by others do not make sense to me. Take your own religion of Shakta in which you gave a description of Maa Lakshmi, when the vast majority of Hindus have never called Lakshmi 'Maa' as if she wil love and protect her child. No such protection exists. Lakhsmi is only a guna consciousness goddess that people tune into, just like millions of other gods and goddess that people can create for themselves. To point that out is stating the facts that feminists who wish to destroy Nature do not like and so want to perpetuate the falsehoods to suit their feminist Shakti agenda that discounts God the Creator and Preserver of the universe. God Sri Krishna can be approached by females through Durga alone and she is not Shakti but the encapsulation of God in the feminine form. Sri Krishna arranged it like that so that women would still be able to worship God.

I have a conception of Hinduism and strive to get all facts out in the open for civilised discussion. Your post is insulting and uncivilised. You should apologise.

So basically you have created a new religion based on conversations you think you had had with Krishna and labelled it the true advaita Hinduism. Got it.