Gun debate poll and privatizing the school system.

[an anarchist]

I’m very anxious going out now since I seen on the news that Buffalo supermarket shooting. Then the elementary school happened.
I fear getting shot while going about my daily business as an American.
“That’s super unlikely for you to die in a mass shooting though!” But it happened to those kids. Don’t you think their parents thought that? Wasn’t likely there’d be a shooting in their kid’s classroom. But then it happened.
I’m anxious enough that I’m going to hop back on my anxiety pills next time I see my doc. I’ve been hiding away in the house more than usual.
I know there are several active gun debate threads, but I thought it’d be interesting to compare if one has fear of getting shot as an American vs. non American.
I offered a solution in another OP to the mass shooting problem. Arm and train everyone. Nobody liked that idea lol.
I propose another solution: privatizing the school system entirely. As an anarcho-capitalist, I think we should privatize all of society, but I’m not making this thread to debate anarchism. Simply, I want to theorize how a private school system can protect children.
The U.S. government has a large share of the K-12 education market. Sure, there are private schools, but most kids go to public schools.
Public schools have been shown to be unsafe, in the present environment.
If there was no public schools, all of the customers (kids and their parents) would be going to private schools obviously. Some might say that if this were the case, not all kids would be able to afford school. I disagree for the most part, but let’s put aside that detail for now.
In a free market school system, there would be competition between opposing schools. One thing that will be demanded by customers is the guarantee that the kid will be alive at the end of the school day. Customers of the public school system demand that now, yet we are in a state of inaction. Unlike the state, a business in the free market cannot afford inaction. They must meet their consumer needs, or else lose customers to their competitors. The market provides ingenious solutions to the many problems of the world. Solutions would be made to protect the kids. Perhaps this would look like armed security. Perhaps the layouts of schools would be structured in an imaginative way as to cut off access from a potential shooter and the rest of the school. Perhaps there will be automatic locking metal doors for each classroom that won’t allow any entry. It can look a number of ways. How exactly the market would respond to this particular problem is unknown as we are not in a free market environment.
I think privatizing everything is the solution to everything though.
What do you think? I mean, legislation seems to work at preventing shootings for the most part. I mean, look at Australia and try to deny that. I might support gun control, idk. I’m opposed to all of government, I certainly don’t think they should be the only ones armed. Yet, I know a privatized society ain’t gonna happen anytime soon and mass shootings happen every week, so we need an immediate solution.
Is giving up our means of defense worth it? The infringement on that particular liberty, is it worth it to save lives? I don’t know, but I am sure that privatizing the school system would be just as effective if not more effective than legislation.

 

[Orbit]

Arming teachers is a joke. If the Uvalde cops were too afraid of an AR-15 (and they're wearing body armor) to confront the shooter, which do they expect a teacher to do? We are educators, not commandos. Anyone who has any law enforcement experience will tell you that it requires a LOT of training to react well when guns are in play: it's a full-time job to get that training. I work at a university and we had "active shooter training" for one hour one day a few years ago, and the only practical thing I learned from it that I could use was that you can use a tampon to plug a bullet hole in someone's body. I could manage that. But taking down a guy with an AR-15 in the middle of Social Studies? No way, it just won't work and is a red herring. We have too many AR-15 and similar in circulation, and they are too easy to get. Ban them. No one needs an AR-15 or AK47 or similar for any reason.

 

[an anarchist]

Arming teachers is a joke. If the Uvalde cops were too afraid of an AR-15 (and they're wearing body armor) to confront the shooter, which do they expect a teacher to do? We are educators, not commandos. Anyone who has any law enforcement experience will tell you that it requires a LOT of training to react well when guns are in play: it's a full-time job to get that training. I work at a university and we had "active shooter training" for one hour one day a few years ago, and the only practical thing I learned from it that I could use was that you can use a tampon to plug a bullet hole in someone's body. I could manage that. But taking down a guy with an AR-15 in the middle of Social Studies? No way, it just won't work and is a red herring. We have too many AR-15 and similar in circulation, and they are too easy to get. Ban them. No one needs an AR-15 or AK47 or similar for any reason.

Glad to hear the perspective from a teacher. I’ve heard it brought up, arming teachers, on the internet a few times but I’m sure those people were not teachers.

 

[Nakosis]

I’m very anxious going out now since I seen on the news that Buffalo supermarket shooting. Then the elementary school happened.
I fear getting shot while going about my daily business as an American.
“That’s super unlikely for you to die in a mass shooting though!” But it happened to those kids. Don’t you think their parents thought that? Wasn’t likely there’d be a shooting in their kid’s classroom. But then it happened.
I’m anxious enough that I’m going to hop back on my anxiety pills next time I see my doc. I’ve been hiding away in the house more than usual.
I know there are several active gun debate threads, but I thought it’d be interesting to compare if one has fear of getting shot as an American vs. non American.
I offered a solution in another OP to the mass shooting problem. Arm and train everyone. Nobody liked that idea lol.
I propose another solution: privatizing the school system entirely. As an anarcho-capitalist, I think we should privatize all of society, but I’m not making this thread to debate anarchism. Simply, I want to theorize how a private school system can protect children.
The U.S. government has a large share of the K-12 education market. Sure, there are private schools, but most kids go to public schools.
Public schools have been shown to be unsafe, in the present environment.
If there was no public schools, all of the customers (kids and their parents) would be going to private schools obviously. Some might say that if this were the case, not all kids would be able to afford school. I disagree for the most part, but let’s put aside that detail for now.
In a free market school system, there would be competition between opposing schools. One thing that will be demanded by customers is the guarantee that the kid will be alive at the end of the school day. Customers of the public school system demand that now, yet we are in a state of inaction. Unlike the state, a business in the free market cannot afford inaction. They must meet their consumer needs, or else lose customers to their competitors. The market provides ingenious solutions to the many problems of the world. Solutions would be made to protect the kids. Perhaps this would look like armed security. Perhaps the layouts of schools would be structured in an imaginative way as to cut off access from a potential shooter and the rest of the school. Perhaps there will be automatic locking metal doors for each classroom that won’t allow any entry. It can look a number of ways. How exactly the market would respond to this particular problem is unknown as we are not in a free market environment.
I think privatizing everything is the solution to everything though.
What do you think? I mean, legislation seems to work at preventing shootings for the most part. I mean, look at Australia and try to deny that. I might support gun control, idk. I’m opposed to all of government, I certainly don’t think they should be the only ones armed. Yet, I know a privatized society ain’t gonna happen anytime soon and mass shootings happen every week, so we need an immediate solution.
Is giving up our means of defense worth it? The infringement on that particular liberty, is it worth it to save lives? I don’t know, but I am sure that privatizing the school system would be just as effective if not more effective than legislation.

I'm in favor of hardening the target.
The charter school my grandkids go to has very tight security.
Hard for me to believe that a teenager carry a long gun was able to get onto school grounds.
I'm not against gun controls, but that is more likely to prevent accidental shootings and suicides, which is ok.
They want to ban assault rifles, assaults aren't being used so doesn't seem like it'll help except maybe make some feel safer.

If you don't feel safe it's because the government is failing at it's job. If people are getting into schools and shooting kids it's because the government is failing at it's job.
Relying on the government doesn't have the best track record when it comes to mass shootings.

You'd have to ban all guns and be able to enforce such a ban. Unlikely in the US because of the 2nd amendment.

Hardening the target doesn't mean arming the teachers. It doesn't mean having armed security at the schools and preventing any unauthorized access.
Still could fail, but I think this is the better solution than relying on the government to take any action.

 

[Polymath257]

A few years ago there was a mass shooting on my campus in a lecture room that I have taught in many times.

I was off campus when the shooting occurred, but students in my department were killed.

So, yes, I take this issue very seriously and have been directly affected by it.

Arming teachers and professors is a silly idea. Having armed students is even more stupid. That will lead to *more* shootings, not fewer.

Unfortunately, simply having more legislation concerning guns won't help much. There are simply too many guns on the black market for gun control alone to make a dent.

We need to decrease the number of people who have multiple guns, make sure that those with a history of violence don't have access, and eliminate guns that can shoot too frequently. But that means finding a way to get guns off the back market, make sure that every sale is to someone well trained and who has had a recent mental health check, and take guns away from those that fail certain mental health checks.

But, frankly, I don't think there is the political will to do these basic steps. So children and others will continue to die because we can't keep guns out of the hands of those who should not have them.

 

[74x12]

Arming teachers and professors is a silly idea. Having armed students is even more stupid. That will lead to *more* shootings, not fewer.

Israelis don't think so.

You put a gun cabinet in secure strategic locations of the school and only responsible/trained people have access.

 

[Estro Felino]

There is a license for everything.
There should be for firearms too.

 

[Polymath257]

Israelis don't think so.

You put a gun cabinet in secure strategic locations of the school and only responsible/trained people have access.

And if more people were actually well trained, that might be an option.

Maybe everyone who wants to own a gun needs to be enlisted in a 'well regulated militia'?

 

[Stevicus]

I’m very anxious going out now since I seen on the news that Buffalo supermarket shooting. Then the elementary school happened.
I fear getting shot while going about my daily business as an American.
“That’s super unlikely for you to die in a mass shooting though!” But it happened to those kids. Don’t you think their parents thought that? Wasn’t likely there’d be a shooting in their kid’s classroom. But then it happened.
I’m anxious enough that I’m going to hop back on my anxiety pills next time I see my doc. I’ve been hiding away in the house more than usual.
I know there are several active gun debate threads, but I thought it’d be interesting to compare if one has fear of getting shot as an American vs. non American.
I offered a solution in another OP to the mass shooting problem. Arm and train everyone. Nobody liked that idea lol.
I propose another solution: privatizing the school system entirely. As an anarcho-capitalist, I think we should privatize all of society, but I’m not making this thread to debate anarchism. Simply, I want to theorize how a private school system can protect children.
The U.S. government has a large share of the K-12 education market. Sure, there are private schools, but most kids go to public schools.
Public schools have been shown to be unsafe, in the present environment.
If there was no public schools, all of the customers (kids and their parents) would be going to private schools obviously. Some might say that if this were the case, not all kids would be able to afford school. I disagree for the most part, but let’s put aside that detail for now.
In a free market school system, there would be competition between opposing schools. One thing that will be demanded by customers is the guarantee that the kid will be alive at the end of the school day. Customers of the public school system demand that now, yet we are in a state of inaction. Unlike the state, a business in the free market cannot afford inaction. They must meet their consumer needs, or else lose customers to their competitors. The market provides ingenious solutions to the many problems of the world. Solutions would be made to protect the kids. Perhaps this would look like armed security. Perhaps the layouts of schools would be structured in an imaginative way as to cut off access from a potential shooter and the rest of the school. Perhaps there will be automatic locking metal doors for each classroom that won’t allow any entry. It can look a number of ways. How exactly the market would respond to this particular problem is unknown as we are not in a free market environment.
I think privatizing everything is the solution to everything though.
What do you think? I mean, legislation seems to work at preventing shootings for the most part. I mean, look at Australia and try to deny that. I might support gun control, idk. I’m opposed to all of government, I certainly don’t think they should be the only ones armed. Yet, I know a privatized society ain’t gonna happen anytime soon and mass shootings happen every week, so we need an immediate solution.
Is giving up our means of defense worth it? The infringement on that particular liberty, is it worth it to save lives? I don’t know, but I am sure that privatizing the school system would be just as effective if not more effective than legislation.

I don't really worry about being shot in a mass shooting, since those are still a statistical rarity. Most shooting deaths seem to be more of a personal nature, such as domestic violence, suicide, gang vs. gang. Sometimes it's armed robbery or carjacking which can be random, although that can depend on which area of town one might be located. Some areas are safer than others.

 

[Heyo]

I think privatizing everything is the solution to everything though.

Maybe the US should privatise its legislation? Seats in Congress and Senate would be auctioned off.
(Not that it would change anything but the process would be more transparent.)

 

[metis]

Just for the record, I chose Door #2.

 

[Nimos]

What do you think? I mean, legislation seems to work at preventing shootings for the most part. I mean, look at Australia and try to deny that. I might support gun control, idk.

In my opinion, the Americans need to pull their head out of the ground and look at Europe and in general at the rest of the world. What the ....!!!

19 Countries with the Most School Shootings (total incidents Jan 2009-May 2018 - CNN):

• United States — 288
• Mexico — 8
• South Africa — 6
• India — 5
• Nigeria & Pakistan — 4
• Afghanistan — 3
• Brazil, Canada, France — 2
• Azerbaijan, China, Estonia, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Kenya, Russia, & Turkey — 1

I really don't get how it can be so difficult to understand, if you make it easy for people to get hold of weapons, clearly they will be more likely to use them. If arming teachers or assigning policemen at schools were the solution, clearly that would be the norm in all the other countries in this list and that would probably be a good explanation, but that is not the case. At least not for a lot of these countries as far as I know.

The Americans, need to get on the street with signs and pull those freaking gun lobbyist and all the other lobbyist through the street and throw them the hell out of your government and make it illegal to do any lobbying. You system is so freaking corrupt that its insane, there is a reason people refer to it as corporate America.

Your solution to this problem is to clean up your system and take back control of things and not allow these organizations and firms to interfere with politics.

 

[sun rise]

We're too focused on school shootings and ignore all the other situations where kids are dying. If we were serious, we'd take a step back and look at preventing such deaths no matter where they occur and not just looking at a few, high profile cases.

over 4,300 young Americans died of firearm-related injuries in 2020.

According to the research - which was published this week in the New England Journal Medicine - the rise in gun-related deaths among Americans between the ages of one and 19 was part of an overall 33.4% increase in firearm homicides nationwide.
...
Over the same time period, the rate of firearm suicides in the US rose by 1.1%
Gun deaths were the leading killer of US children in 2020

 

[Nimos]

We're too focused on school shootings and ignore all the other situations where kids are dying. If we were serious, we'd take a step back and look at preventing such deaths no matter where they occur and not just looking at a few, high profile cases.

A lot of the problems I think is how the Americans think about this, and its not illogical, but its a spiral that is very difficult to break. Meaning surely we have people that are getting robbed and people breaking into houses etc.

The difference is that in Denmark it is very unlikely that such people are carrying guns, because even the robbers know that people in Denmark doesn't have these in general, so its very difficult for things to escalate into something which result in someone getting killed as a result of this.

If a robber in the US know that the person they are assaulting or robbing is most likely carrying a gun, then surely they are going to bring one as well.

But to solve the overall issue with gun violence, you have to work towards a more equal society. There is a clear connection between crime and inequality. But for some reason the Americans are very weird when it comes to this, they have so much patriotism when it comes to their armed forces, their country as a whole etc. But when it comes to solidarity within their own people, its like, its none existing, it is extremely weird in my opinion. "Medicare!!! goddamn communism!!" noo.. its called solidarity and caring for one another, has nothing to do with communism

 

[Mock Turtle]

Not an American and have no fears related to crime. Never have done. No special precautions other than the normal ones of not leaving my windows and doors unlocked and have no fear of being attacked on the street. I live in a rural setting but even when I lived in a few cities, including London, I never feared anything even when out at night and including the usual drinking. I suspect this is normal for many countries, even the USA, so why would I or anyone feel the need to protect myself and/or my property with a lethal weapon?

So this ticked along with stronger gun controls, but the main thing which might lower the number of deaths in the USA would be to get gun ownership down to the levels of many other countries, where only certain categories were allowed to possess them. It does just seem to be a fact that the more weapons in circulation then more deaths will result from such. I don't know what it might take to achieve this, if ever, but that is about the only sensible solution, and one that many other countries have seen as best. A gradual erosion of the levels of ownership might be done by reducing ownership of the more lethal weapons, but the level of opposition to such might prove to be a stumbling block. Not holding out much hope.

 

[Sand Dancer]

Just for the record, I chose Door #2.

You get a nice can of Dinty Moore.

 

[Stevicus]

In my opinion, the Americans need to pull their head out of the ground and look at Europe and in general at the rest of the world. What the ....!!!

19 Countries with the Most School Shootings (total incidents Jan 2009-May 2018 - CNN):

• United States — 288
• Mexico — 8
• South Africa — 6
• India — 5
• Nigeria & Pakistan — 4
• Afghanistan — 3
• Brazil, Canada, France — 2
• Azerbaijan, China, Estonia, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Kenya, Russia, & Turkey — 1

Well, this seems like a rather specialized statistic, so much so as to render it useless for discussion. The cartel violence in Mexico, for example, is far more severe and deadly than in the United States.

If we took individual states - such as Maine, New Hampshire, Idaho - and compared their crime rates with that of other developed countries, we might see different results. But how useful would such statistics be?

I really don't get how it can be so difficult to understand, if you make it easy for people to get hold of weapons, clearly they will be more likely to use them. If arming teachers or assigning policemen at schools were the solution, clearly that would be the norm in all the other countries in this list and that would probably be a good explanation, but that is not the case. At least not for a lot of these countries as far as I know.

It's not that it's difficult to understand.

The Americans, need to get on the street with signs and pull those freaking gun lobbyist and all the other lobbyist through the street and throw them the hell out of your government and make it illegal to do any lobbying. You system is so freaking corrupt that its insane, there is a reason people refer to it as corporate America.

Your solution to this problem is to clean up your system and take back control of things and not allow these organizations and firms to interfere with politics.

Well, there have been significant public protests over various issues in recent years, and I agree about the corruption in America. There are many people who want to change things in America, but they all have their own particular ideas on how to do that. From left to right, up and down the spectrum, there are people who are clamoring for change.

I consider myself to be one of many living examples of this process in action. I would like to see massive changes from top to bottom in this country. We need to tear everything down and rebuild the system from scratch. I've argued as much in various threads here, as you may have noticed. But you may have also noticed how many people argue and make a fuss whenever proposals for change are made. Look at how many people complain and criticize other people's ideas. Look at how many people refuse to listen or engage in public discussion in good faith.

In terms of corruption, politics, and how they apply in the debate over gun control is that such discussions often take place at a time of emotional duress. That's what makes people more vulnerable to manipulation by unscrupulous politicians and pundits.

 

[Truth in love]

A few years ago there was a mass shooting on my campus in a lecture room that I have taught in many times.

I was off campus when the shooting occurred, but students in my department were killed.

So, yes, I take this issue very seriously and have been directly affected by it.

Arming teachers and professors is a silly idea. Having armed students is even more stupid. That will lead to *more* shootings, not fewer.

Unfortunately, simply having more legislation concerning guns won't help much. There are simply too many guns on the black market for gun control alone to make a dent.

We need to decrease the number of people who have multiple guns, make sure that those with a history of violence don't have access, and eliminate guns that can shoot too frequently. But that means finding a way to get guns off the back market, make sure that every sale is to someone well trained and who has had a recent mental health check, and take guns away from those that fail certain mental health checks.

But, frankly, I don't think there is the political will to do these basic steps. So children and others will continue to die because we can't keep guns out of the hands of those who should not have them.

Let’s be clear you have no right to limit my right to be armed and protect my family. I’m sorry you’ve been in a tough spot, but your suffering does not give you the power to put my family at risk.

 

[Truth in love]

There is a license for everything.
There should be for firearms too.

Do you need a license to go to church? Talk to a friend? But a soda?

 

[Polymath257]

Let’s be clear you have no right to limit my right to be armed and protect my family. I’m sorry you’ve been in a tough spot, but your suffering does not give you the power to put my family at risk.

If you or someone in your family is inclined towards violence to others, then I most certainly *do* have such a right.

But, if you are a member of a well-regulated militia and undergo regular mental health evaluation and keep your guns safely locked away, then I am OK with you having them at home.

This is not putting your family at risk. If anything, it is making sure they are not themselves at risk and are not putting others at risk.