Gun debate poll and privatizing the school system.

[Truth in love]

And the success of those suicide attempts is vastly increased if they use a gun as opposed to a knife.

Yes, the gun *greatly* increases the risks. Of that there can be no doubt.

But can we at least agree that guns should not be in the hands of those who have a history of violence, have orders of protection against them, or are depressed?

Those who actually abuse the right e.g armed robbery yes, but not stupid things like yelling at your wife or putting a fish in a lake (class C felony in OR). A restraining order is almost standard issue in a divorce. Right denial needs to be done through due process and a conviction by jury of a crime.


For persons who are extremely mentally ill they often can’t have guns, but in no way would I blanket deny anyone with depression or anxiety or PTSD it’s like 1/2 the country. We let people buy alcohol even if they are an addict and might drive drunk and kill others. Setting a higher bar for an explicit right is wrong.

 

[Truth in love]

The current system in the US is a mess. Every other developed nation and many others besides have a better health system than we do.

And I'd prefer that it be voluntary but it can't be given the system is structured for to maximize greed. Today the only possible counterbalance is some mandated system. Personally I like the Swiss system but am open to considering whatever will give everyone access to affordable health care.

Given that the systems in place punish effort, reward laziness and discourage independence id take another one. Also that pesky little it’s totally against the law thing matters to some of us.

 

[Stevicus]

Its about school shootings.

If Maine and Idaho etc. have different rules than other states it might be relevant to compare the difference in the amount of school shootings.

It's about shootings. Or more generally, it's about violent crimes. You apparently want to narrow it down to school shootings and only school shootings, but I'm not sure why.

Of course, the point has been made that there are some states which have more lax rules on firearms which have lower rates of crime than states that have stricter rules. Because of this, some people might want to examine other possible factors in gun violence, as opposed to simply being satisfied that it all comes down to lax gun rules and leave it at that.

Im not saying that it will be easy, things rarely is in politics, because there are many people (politicians) with their own agendas. But it is remarkable that the US have so many school shootings compared to everyone else, and I don't think any other country have a gun law as you have in the US, so it seems like an obvious place to start making some changes. The rough part is convincing others about it, no disagreement there. But at least in my opinion the first step is to get rid of the lobbyists or at least much better rules, because they are not speaking for the public interests, but are speaking for the various organizations and their agendas.

In 2021, the total lobbying spending in the United States amounted to 3.73 billion U.S. dollars. This is an increase from the 3.53 billion U.S. dollars spent on lobbying in 2020.

Companies and organizations don't throw this amount of money after something if they don't also benefit from it one way or another. And its not just an issue in the US.

When advocating for any kind of political change, it often comes down to priorities and what people feel is the most important issue to solve. For some people, it's gun violence. For others, it might be abortion laws. Still, others might emphasize LGBTQ issues, as their primary issue of focus. Then there are those who care far more about foreign policy than anything to do with domestic politics. Climate change, immigration, border security, crime, terrorism - all of these issues tend to be at varying levels of priority for people.

For me, it's more about the well-being of working people, availability of affordable housing, healthcare, education, and other areas of the socioeconomic system which have been badly neglected in recent decades.

So, we all have our own different areas of focus and priority. That's what struck me a number of years ago when I was reading about the Occupy Wall Street movement. There was no singular cause that everyone was focused on. It was more a cacophony of different groups hawking their own pet cause, and there was no real coordination or focus. So, it just kind of fizzled out.

It's even worse at the national level, as you've hit upon the problem with lobbyists and special interests and how much they spend to gain influence in the inner circles of power. Big money, big business, corruption at all levels of government. Politics is a dirty business, as my grandfather always used to say.

 

[Ponder This]

I offered a solution in another OP to the mass shooting problem. Arm and train everyone. Nobody liked that idea lol.

This is basically what the Swiss do and I think it would reduce gun deaths in the U.S.

 

[Polymath257]

Those who actually abuse the right e.g armed robbery yes, but not stupid things like yelling at your wife or putting a fish in a lake (class C felony in OR). A restraining order is almost standard issue in a divorce. Right denial needs to be done through due process and a conviction by jury of a crime.

I disagree. For example, Florida currently has 'red flag laws' that remove guns under judicial supervision from people that misuse them in flagrant ways (like threatening their wives with the gun, or saying they might shoot up a school).

That seems like a reasonable first step.

For persons who are extremely mentally ill they often can’t have guns, but in no way would I blanket deny anyone with depression or anxiety or PTSD it’s like 1/2 the country. We let people buy alcohol even if they are an addict and might drive drunk and kill others. Setting a higher bar for an explicit right is wrong.

Driving while under the influence of alcohol is illegal and can result in the removal of driving privileges. Do too many people get away with this? yes, undoubtedly. That law should be enforced much better.

But for example, someone that does a Facebook post saying they are planning to shoot up a school *should* have their guns taken away from them and they should not be allowed to buy more. Someone that threatens another with a gun *should* have their guns removed until it is established that they conducted themselves appropriately. Someone that doesn't have their guns appropriately stored, especially with children around, *should* have their guns removed.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Many millions of guns on America and thousands of people die each year the vast majority by suicide or while committing crimes and you blame the gun?

Are they committing suicide with guns?

 

[SkepticThinker]

Having someone else pay your bills is not a right.

I think you just made his point for him.

 

[Heyo]

Are they committing suicide with guns?

Yes. And access to a gun raises the probability for someone to commit suicide significantly. (About 200% if memory serves.)

 

[JIMMY12345]

I’m very anxious going out now since I seen on the news that Buffalo supermarket shooting. Then the elementary school happened.
I fear getting shot while going about my daily business as an American.
“That’s super unlikely for you to die in a mass shooting though!” But it happened to those kids. Don’t you think their parents thought that? Wasn’t likely there’d be a shooting in their kid’s classroom. But then it happened.
I’m anxious enough that I’m going to hop back on my anxiety pills next time I see my doc. I’ve been hiding away in the house more than usual.
I know there are several active gun debate threads, but I thought it’d be interesting to compare if one has fear of getting shot as an American vs. non American.
I offered a solution in another OP to the mass shooting problem. Arm and train everyone. Nobody liked that idea lol.
I propose another solution: privatizing the school system entirely. As an anarcho-capitalist, I think we should privatize all of society, but I’m not making this thread to debate anarchism. Simply, I want to theorize how a private school system can protect children.
The U.S. government has a large share of the K-12 education market. Sure, there are private schools, but most kids go to public schools.
Public schools have been shown to be unsafe, in the present environment.
If there was no public schools, all of the customers (kids and their parents) would be going to private schools obviously. Some might say that if this were the case, not all kids would be able to afford school. I disagree for the most part, but let’s put aside that detail for now.
In a free market school system, there would be competition between opposing schools. One thing that will be demanded by customers is the guarantee that the kid will be alive at the end of the school day. Customers of the public school system demand that now, yet we are in a state of inaction. Unlike the state, a business in the free market cannot afford inaction. They must meet their consumer needs, or else lose customers to their competitors. The market provides ingenious solutions to the many problems of the world. Solutions would be made to protect the kids. Perhaps this would look like armed security. Perhaps the layouts of schools would be structured in an imaginative way as to cut off access from a potential shooter and the rest of the school. Perhaps there will be automatic locking metal doors for each classroom that won’t allow any entry. It can look a number of ways. How exactly the market would respond to this particular problem is unknown as we are not in a free market environment.
I think privatizing everything is the solution to everything though.
What do you think? I mean, legislation seems to work at preventing shootings for the most part. I mean, look at Australia and try to deny that. I might support gun control, idk. I’m opposed to all of government, I certainly don’t think they should be the only ones armed. Yet, I know a privatized society ain’t gonna happen anytime soon and mass shootings happen every week, so we need an immediate solution.
Is giving up our means of defense worth it? The infringement on that particular liberty, is it worth it to save lives? I don’t know, but I am sure that privatizing the school system would be just as effective if not more effective than legislation.

Interesting theory.However these shootings are people who are not evil as mentally unbalanced.The mentally unbalanced do not differentiate between private and public.