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Gospels-“do not go back to the respective authors”

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by paarsurrey, May 2, 2019.

  1. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Gospels-“do not go back to the respective authors”
    None, emphasis none, of the Gospel writers was the eye-witness of Jesus' Crucifixion.
    Thread open to everybody including those who claim they have no religion, please

    Regards

    _____________
    "The first four historical books of the New Testament are supplied with titles ( Euaggelion kata Matthaion, Euaggelion kata Markon , etc.), which, however ancient, do not go back to the respective authors of those sacred writings. "
    Gospel and Gospels - Encyclopedia Volume - Catholic Encyclopedia - Catholic Online

    #659
     
    #1 paarsurrey, May 2, 2019
    Last edited: May 2, 2019
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  2. pcarl

    pcarl Well-Known Member

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    True. Some scholars make an exception for the Gospel of John which may have included an eye witness account, the so called 'Beloved Disciple' but written by a later Johanine school, not by the Apostle. Interestingly there is no mention of the individual apostles in John.
     
  3. Windwalker

    Windwalker Integralist
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    Add to this, that of the 14 NT books attributed to the Apostle Paul, only 7 are considered by the majority of mainstream scholarship as authentic Pauline texts . So that means, we only have one author we can verify as being authentically who they say they are out of the 27 books in the New Testament.
     
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  4. sealchan

    sealchan Well-Known Member

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    I think that this can easily be demonstrated by two simple observations:
    • The different gospels are strikingly similar in a way that leads one to believe that they worked from common written sources
    • The differences between gospels share similarities that speak to the author's personal perspective rather than outward disputes on the facts
    There are other reasons as well but these strike me as the most compelling. The second one stands out for me as true given my limited study of Matthew and the character of the unique content of that gospel with respect to the others. Matthew (a name traditionally associated to that gospel's author) was clearly in touch with other spiritual traditions and was framing his story of Jesus as creating a new religion out of a background of other religions. Matthew even draws inspiration from those other religions in how he crafted his narrative. Altogether this makes it clear to me that Matthew's gospel is a clear reflection of its author's unique concerns and knowledge rather than a reporting on historical or witness testimony.
     
  5. Jedster

    Jedster Well-Known Member

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    So what?
    It is good literature, and many people can get some/much meaning from them. Believers or not.
    It's the same for most scriptures.
    None really knows who wrote any of the old scriptures, except perhaps the Bahais who are the most recent in the Abrahamic group.

    I feel many religious people are far too attached to the written word; and use it as an excuse not to look within themselves and hence improve themselves.

    Just my thoughts :)
     
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  6. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    From Wikipedia

    The first three gospels listed . . . are classified as the Synoptic Gospels. They contain similar accounts of the events in Jesus's life and his teaching, due to their literary interdependence. The Gospel of John is structured differently and includes stories of several miracles of Jesus and sayings not found in the other three.

    These four gospels that were eventually included in the New Testament were only a few among many other early Christian gospels. The existence of such texts is even mentioned at the beginning of the Gospel of Luke.[Luke 1:1–4] Other early Christian gospels such as the so-called "Jewish-Christian Gospels" or the Gospel of Thomas, also offer both a window into the context of early Christianity and may provide some assistance in the reconstruction of the historical Jesus.​

    Matthew
    Most scholars believe it was composed between AD 80 and 90, with a range of possibility between AD 70 to 110 (a pre-70 date remains a minority view). The anonymous author was probably a male Jew, standing on the margin between traditional and non-traditional Jewish values, and familiar with technical legal aspects of scripture being debated in his time.

    Mark

    Mark probably dates from AD 66–70.Most scholars reject the tradition which ascribes it to John Mark, the companion of the apostle Peter, and regard it (and the other gospels) as anonymous, the work of an unknown author working with various sources including collections of miracle stories, controversy stories, parables, and a passion narrative.

    Luke
    Luke–Acts does not name its author. According to Church tradition this was Luke the Evangelist, the companion of Paul, but while this view is still occasionally put forward the scholarly consensus emphasises the many contradictions between Acts and the authentic Pauline letters. The most probable date for its composition is around AD 80–110, and there is evidence that it was still being revised well into the 2nd century

    John
    The gospel of John went through two to three stages, or "editions", before reaching its current form around AD 90–110. It speaks of an unnamed "disciple whom Jesus loved" as the source of its traditions, but does not say specifically that he is its author. Christian tradition identified this disciple as the apostle John, but for a variety of reasons the majority of scholars have abandoned this view or hold it only tenuously.


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  7. FragrantGrace

    FragrantGrace If winning isn't everything why do they keep score

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    To further elaborate on the Pauline epistles/letters.
    There is also that school of thought held by many Christians and some scholars that Paul was not a true Apostle. There are arguments concerning the Apostles of Christ denying him. However, that is not my point.

    The point is, the aforementioned scholarship hearkens back to Jesus warning to his Disciples prior to his returning to the Father. Matthew 24.
    23 At that time, if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe it. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders that would deceive even the elect, if that were possible.…

    Paul actually exampled everything Jesus warned to beware and dismiss as of his anointing.
    “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘Look, there he is!’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform signs and wonders, to lead astray, if possible, the elect. But be on guard; I have told you all things beforehand.”
    Mark 13:21–23

    Paul's epistle Romans 15:18I will not presume to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me in leading the Gentiles to obedience by word and deed, 19 by the power of signs and wonders, and by the power of the Spirit of God. So from Jerusalem all the way around to Illyricum, I have fully proclaimed the gospel of Christ. 20 In this way, I have aspired to preach the gospel where Christ was not known, so that I would not be building on someone else’s foundation.

    This is not as widely disputed by scholars as the legitimacy of Paul.However recollecting Jesus warning against believing those who claimed to have seen Jesus or met him after he departed back to Heaven, there is the account of the monotheist pagan emperor Constantine. Constantine claimed to have seen a cross shining forth from the sky prior to his bloody battle at the Milvian bridge.
    Constantine claimed to see the cross symbol and hear a voice that said, "In this sign thou shalt conquer".

    The old testament tells us those who were hung on a tree were cursed. This is in part why Jesus was crucified on a tree, or cross. Because he was meant to be the last sacrifice taking on the curse of the sins of the world upon himself there.

    Why would God in two instances, that of appearing as a light to Saul on the Damascus road, and as a light to a pagan emperor, therein contradict the warning he gave his Disciples about appearances of himself after he departed earth?

    Whereas the light bringer, Lucifer, who is prince of this world, would have a vested interest in his capacity to abrogate the purpose of Christ after he departed back to the father. And why would a righteous God anoint a pagan monotheist Roman , when Rome's laws crucified his only begotten son, to conquer under the symbol of the curse ? (the cross or tree that Jesus died on).

    These are questions no doubt that propel those minor number of scholars in their scholarship that pronounces Paul at the very least was false. And also that Paul at least three times in his own letters pronounced he was delivering his gospel. Not that he was preaching the gospel of Christ.

    Therefore the fact that the books of the New Testament, originally written in Greek, were entirely anonymous are but one issue when considering the credibility of certain of its authors. And one minor point. Of all the books in the new testament a man who never heard the living Jesus preach, never met him in flesh, occupies the majority of the NT with his epistles.
     
  8. RabbiO

    RabbiO הרב יונה בן זכריה

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    You've been doing this long enough that you know, or ought to know by now, that, other than a thread posted in the Same Faith section or in one of the DIRs, any member can participate in any thread on the forum. No member needs your invitation or approval to participate nor do you have the authority to limit the participation of any member in a thread.
     
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  9. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    Just an opinion.
     
  10. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    As stated by another, the Gospel of John is the most credible in regards the author being an eye witness, but there is no evidence that establishes any of the Gospels as being written by eye witnesses. However, they were all written within the first century when Jesus was born. They were most likely written by second and third generation Christians.
     
  11. Nowhere Man

    Nowhere Man Bompu Zen Man with a little bit of Bushido.

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    Constantine is the true author of Christianity who obviously found it to be a useful political and religious tool.

    Probably inspired from the Romans who I think invented the character of Jesus to which the religion turned out amazingly well and long-lived.
     
  12. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    According to Matthew all disciples fled away* from the scene of the Crucifixion.

    Regards
    _____________
    *According to Matthew 26:56, all the disciples fled when Jesus was arrested, and most of them probably stayed away from the crucifixion out of fear of their own arrest.
     
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