Goodnight James Randi

[Mock Turtle]

I don't understand your post there??? Rest of what?

List of prizes for evidence of the paranormal - Wikipedia

Probably posted in another thread.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Why on earth would you want to bend a spoon?

You don't expect him to bend a light pole do you?
Yoda is right, if this stuff is real, and we can't judge by size.
David Copperfield made the Statue of Liberty "disappear." Why doesn't Geller make it literally bend? Why doesn't he bend steel beams? Why is it always spoons and keys?
Probably because he can't because he's not actually bending anything. You can't make a light post bend and snap in half, because it can't be set up or manipulated in such a way. But if this stuff is real that size difference shouldn't matter.

 

[blü 2]

You don't expect him to bend a light pole do you?

Why NOT bend a light pole, or a granite column, or anything you like? You're supposed to be tossing real atoms around with just your mental powers, so, okay, the Empire State building might take a bit longer, but the principle's exactly the same, and the result's much more entertaining, much more remarkable.

David Copperfield made the Statue of Liberty "disappear."

I didn't see that one, but I loved it when he disappeared the loco.

You can't make a light post bend and snap in half, because it can't be set up or manipulated in such a way.

Wouldn'ta stopped Dumbledore, betcha.

But if this stuff is real that size difference shouldn't matter.

Yup, exactly.

 

[George-ananda]

List of prizes for evidence of the paranormal - Wikipedia

Probably posted in another thread.

I am not familiar with all that but if they are run by skeptics with an anti-paranormal bias I have my suspicion they may be similar to Randi's. I know for a fact that challenge acceptance has broken down with some serious people as Randi's organization would not accept some noted scientists and parapsychologists on the judging staff that are know to have beliefs in the paranormal. Oh well, I feel it is all a show for hard skeptical people that want to also think they are playing fair.

The upshot for me is that the cumulative experimental, investigative and anecdotal evidence for the paranormal is overwhelming beyond reasonable doubt. And that those resistant can be resistant forever if that is where they are at. And I move on.

 

[Mock Turtle]

I am not familiar with all that but if they are run by skeptics with an anti-paranormal bias I have my suspicion they may be similar to Randi's. I know for a fact that challenge acceptance has broken down with some serious people as Randi's organization would not accept some noted scientists and parapsychologists on the judging staff that are know to have beliefs in the paranormal. Oh well, I feel it is all a show for hard skeptical people that want to also think they are playing fair.

The upshot for me is that the cumulative experimental, investigative and anecdotal evidence for the paranormal is overwhelming beyond reasonable doubt. And that those resistant can be resistant forever if that is where they are at. And I move on.

Why would he want anyone with a preconceived notion? He aimed to find verifiable evidence not have some wishing away evidence. But I don't know what happens with these challenges, except that no money has been collected. One would have though it would have been easy - what with all the OBEs/NDEs and such. But none so far. Much the same with ghosts.

 

[George-ananda]

Why would he want anyone with a preconceived notion?

I should ask you the same question. It is clear that the Randi's have an obvious insulting dislike of psychic figures. And they certainly will not allow themselves to be proven wrong before the whole world in a challenge they control. They can easily prevent that by being the only ones in control of a challenge. Seems like the problem is obvious to me.

 

[Mock Turtle]

I should ask you the same question. It is clear that the Randi's have an obvious insulting dislike of psychic figures. And they certainly will not allow themselves to be proven wrong before the whole world in a challenge they control. They can easily prevent that by being the only ones in control of a challenge. Seems like the problem is obvious to me.

Obvious that one shouldn't have preconceived notions? This is generally the problem - finding evidence to support a conclusion rather than looking at the evidence and finding an explanation.

 

[George-ananda]

Obvious that one shouldn't have preconceived notions? This is generally the problem - finding evidence to support a conclusion rather than looking at the evidence and finding an explanation.

Right, the Randi types have an agenda is my point making their investigation unreliable to say the least. Randi will not lose a challenge in which his organization has final determination.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Why NOT bend a light pole, or a granite column, or anything you like? You're supposed to be tossing real atoms around with just your mental powers, so, okay, the Empire State building might take a bit longer, but the principle's exactly the same, and the result's much more entertaining, much more remarkable.

If he can use his mind to do it, why not bend the Seattle Space Needle around? That would certainly keep skeptics and magicians scratching their heads for a long time to come.
And if he's using his mind and psychic abilities, why does he have to touch things? I thought the goal of psychic ability was to bypass that physical contact thing?

The upshot for me is that the cumulative experimental, investigative and anecdotal evidence for the paranormal is overwhelming beyond reasonable doubt. And that those resistant can be resistant forever if that is where they are at. And I move on.

So much so that governments and universities of the world shut down their programs and quit researching it. Why would they do that if there is such an abundance of evidence?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Right, the Randi types have an agenda is my point making their investigation unreliable to say the least. Randi will not lose a challenge in which his organization has final determination.

Does this same sort of standard apply to Ben Stein and winning his money?

 

[Mock Turtle]

Right, the Randi types have an agenda is my point making their investigation unreliable to say the least. Randi will not lose a challenge in which his organization has final determination.

All of them? Easy to just dismiss them all as some conspiracy, when some decent evidence would put paid to the lot - but apparently hasn't happened.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I am not familiar with all that but if they are run by skeptics with an anti-paranormal bias I have my suspicion they may be similar to Randi's. I know for a fact that challenge acceptance has broken down with some serious people as Randi's organization would not accept some noted scientists and parapsychologists on the judging staff that are know to have beliefs in the paranormal. Oh well, I feel it is all a show for hard skeptical people that want to also think they are playing fair.

The upshot for me is that the cumulative experimental, investigative and anecdotal evidence for the paranormal is overwhelming beyond reasonable doubt. And that those resistant can be resistant forever if that is where they are at. And I move on.

Those were the wrong sort of "experts" to have on staff. In the past such people were fooled by the people that Randi exposed. Magicians make a living fooling people, which is why he leaned towards those sorts of experts. They could see through the trickery of many applicants.

 

[George-ananda]

All of them? Easy to just dismiss them all as some conspiracy, when some decent evidence would put paid to the lot - but apparently hasn't happened.

And I say the decent evidence has happened. See my quotes earlier just on Geller. If a hard skeptic is the controlling judge then I predict (without psychic abilities needed) they will never concede defeat.

Well, I can only repeat myself so many times.

 

[George-ananda]

Those were the wrong sort of "experts" to have on staff. In the past such people were fooled by the people that Randi exposed. Magicians make a living fooling people, which is why he leaned towards those sorts of experts. They could see through the trickery of many applicants.

I listen to magicians and scientists too to form my beliefs. See quotes I posted in this thread.

Who I am very skeptical of are the hard Randi type skeptics (pseudo skeptics) that have publicly demeaned psychics and phenomena. They have a crusade agenda that renders them biased.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I listen to magicians and scientists too to form my beliefs. See quotes I posted in this thread.

Who I am very skeptical of are the hard Randi type skeptics (pseudo skeptics) that have publicly demeaned psychics and phenomena. They have a crusade agenda that renders them biased.

That is because every one that they tested turned out to be a fraud. That is not bias. That is experience.

 

[George-ananda]

That is because every one that they tested turned out to be a fraud. That is not bias. That is experience.

An open mind like myself considers that maybe every one they tested was not a fraud but saying 'they're all frauds' is their clear agenda. And eventually the more serious people in the field saw the futility in battling the charade? Just maybe an honest skeptic should be skeptical of the Randi type skeptics too? Would you agree?

I will repeat:

“”As a magician, I believe that the tests we did (with Geller) could not be duplicated in any way by a magician’s methods.”
Abb Dickson (Professional magician – U.S.A. and President of the International Brotherhood of Magicians 1997-98)


Uri bent a spoon for me, the first time he did it, I thought there must be a trick. The second time I was stunned, completely, completely stunned and amazed. It just bent in my hand. I’ve never seen anything like it. It takes a lot to impress me. Uri Geller is for real and anyone who doesn’t recognise that is either deluding himself, or is a very sad person.

David Blaine



“I immediately pick up the spoon from the lectern and place it into my pocket so that no one can steal it before I have the opportunity to auction it off. I notice that it is now at a perfect 90-degree angle – a different physical appearance than what I recall seeing when he placed it gently down on the lectern. I secretly shake my head because it is now different and I did not see him do one thing that was suspicious, with speed, without grace or charm. It was flawless. I have no idea what he did. I now have the spoon at my home. It is perfect. I have seen many spoons bent by so called experts. Uri is in a league of his own. The curvature of the bend is beautiful – not forced. I have said to many people that the curvature reminds me of a single line drawn by Matisse. It is a work of art. You can tell that it was created by a master. Quite wonderful. I’m a fan. Now, I would like to add a few further comments. Although I am not an expert in the paranormal, I am an expert in sleight of hand. I would stack up my knowledge and ability in sleight of hand against anyone in the world. I do not believe that Geller used sleight of hand to bend the spoon. (I have seen most of the spoon bending experts created by the magic community and their work is not very elegant when compared with Geller.”

David Ben Sleight of Hand Master

 

[Subduction Zone]

An open mind like myself considers that maybe every one they tested was not a fraud but saying 'they're all frauds' is their clear agenda. And eventually the more serious people in the field saw the futility in battling the charade? Just maybe an honest skeptic should be skeptical of the Randi type skeptics too? Would you agree?

A person with an "open mind" should not distort the arguments of others. All of the people that went through testing were frauds. I did not say that all psychic events were, but it sure looks that way when they are investigated. All it takes is one valid example , but no person on the psychic side can seem to come up with one.

I will repeat:

“”As a magician, I believe that the tests we did (with Geller) could not be duplicated in any way by a magician’s methods.”
Abb Dickson (Professional magician – U.S.A. and President of the International Brotherhood of Magicians 1997-98)

And yet Geller was shown to be a fraud. He fooled a magician. He did not fool Randi.

Uri bent a spoon for me, the first time he did it, I thought there must be a trick. The second time I was stunned, completely, completely stunned and amazed. It just bent in my hand. I’ve never seen anything like it. It takes a lot to impress me. Uri Geller is for real and anyone who doesn’t recognise that is either deluding himself, or is a very sad person.

David Blaine



“I immediately pick up the spoon from the lectern and place it into my pocket so that no one can steal it before I have the opportunity to auction it off. I notice that it is now at a perfect 90-degree angle – a different physical appearance than what I recall seeing when he placed it gently down on the lectern. I secretly shake my head because it is now different and I did not see him do one thing that was suspicious, with speed, without grace or charm. It was flawless. I have no idea what he did. I now have the spoon at my home. It is perfect. I have seen many spoons bent by so called experts. Uri is in a league of his own. The curvature of the bend is beautiful – not forced. I have said to many people that the curvature reminds me of a single line drawn by Matisse. It is a work of art. You can tell that it was created by a master. Quite wonderful. I’m a fan. Now, I would like to add a few further comments. Although I am not an expert in the paranormal, I am an expert in sleight of hand. I would stack up my knowledge and ability in sleight of hand against anyone in the world. I do not believe that Geller used sleight of hand to bend the spoon. (I have seen most of the spoon bending experts created by the magic community and their work is not very elegant when compared with Geller.”

David Ben Sleight of Hand Master

Oh wow! Geller fooled two magicians. And yet he failed when reasonable precautions were taken. Surely you can do better than Uri.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

“”As a magician, I believe that the tests we did (with Geller) could not be duplicated in any way by a magician’s methods.”

Then what do you call Randi performing everything Geller has ever done?

David Blaine

Want me to go over again on how he's not a very good or talented magician? Almost all of the tricks in his repertoire are out-of-the-box, taken from instruction manuals and videos, and no creative applications are used to change things. At all. Like his vanishing quarter trick. Look up the Raven. He does the exact same "stock trick" the prop teaches. The Balducci levitation is so simple I have found even many children can figure it out without taking more than a moment to ponder it, but it's a staple of Blaine's performances.
It's no wonder he was fooled. He is so unoriginal that I would estimate it wouldn't be too hard to fool him with an intermediate or advanced magic trick.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Then what do you call Randi performing everything Geller has ever done?

I guess that means that Randi has psychic powers too. Why the dirty rotten lowdown sneaking . . .

Want me to go over again on how he's not a very good or talented magician? Almost all of the tricks in his repertoire are out-of-the-box, taken from instruction manuals and videos, and no creative applications are used to change things. At all. Like his vanishing quarter trick. Look up the Raven. He does the exact same "stock trick" the prop teaches. The Balducci levitation is so simple I have found even many children can figure it out without taking more than a moment to ponder it, but it's a staple of Blaine's performances.
It's no wonder he was fooled. He is so unoriginal that I would estimate it wouldn't be too hard to fool him with an intermediate or advanced magic trick.

Penn of Penn and Teller fame has openly stated that their act would not have been possible without Randi. And their "Fool us with Penn and Teller" TV show works off of that principle. The general schtick is that a guest magician does his act and attempts to fool Penn and Teller. If Penn and Teller get it they drop enough vague statements so that the magician knows that the P and T know without spoiling the trick. If they food Penn and Teller they get to perform in Las Vegas (though probably not now). The show is entertaining, and Penn and Teller probably use the winners as a warm up act for their show. Even if a magician loses he gets exposure. It is a win all the way around. I do not think that Blaine would earn a trip to Las Vegas.

 

[blü 2]

I should ask you the same question. It is clear that the Randi's have an obvious insulting dislike of psychic figures. And they certainly will not allow themselves to be proven wrong before the whole world in a challenge they control. They can easily prevent that by being the only ones in control of a challenge. Seems like the problem is obvious to me.

The rules of the challenge required the conditions of the challenge to be agreed in advance.

None of the candidates was forced into anything.

And all of them failed.

100%.

What should the impartial onlooker conclude from that?