Goodnight James Randi

[blü 2]

If he can use his mind to do it, why not bend the Seattle Space Needle around? That would certainly keep skeptics and magicians scratching their heads for a long time to come.

Yes, I'd be prepared to admit I'm impressed.

And if he's using his mind and psychic abilities, why does he have to touch things? I thought the goal of psychic ability was to bypass that physical contact thing?

On the one hand I agree ─ can't think of any good reason to need to touch it. On the other hand, if it's the Empire State or the Seattle Needle, maybe let him touch it after his hands have been checked?

So much so that governments and universities of the world shut down their programs and quit researching it. Why would they do that if there is such an abundance of evidence?

I can see why governments might stop in the absence of useful results longterm, as it did in the 1950s and 60s. That wouldn't stop the university grant applications, of course, just render them unsuccessful.

 

[George-ananda]

A person with an "open mind" should not distort the arguments of others. All of the people that went through testing were frauds. I did not say that all psychic events were, but it sure looks that way when they are investigated. All it takes is one valid example , but no person on the psychic side can seem to come up with one.



And yet Geller was shown to be a fraud. He fooled a magician. He did not fool Randi.




Oh wow! Geller fooled two magicians. And yet he failed when reasonable precautions were taken. Surely you can do better than Uri.

There is no arguing with someone who WANTS to hold a certain position. Evidence and witnesses aren't going to be outwardly accepted once the heart is set on a certain view of things but internally they must start to doubt themselves.

 

[George-ananda]

What should the impartial onlooker conclude from that?

That they should consider what the critics of the Randi types have to say too. That's what I did as an impartial onlooker. And then I adopted the most reasonable position in the end.

 

[George-ananda]

Then what do you call Randi performing everything Geller has ever done?

Randi can not produce a bent key that under electron microscopic analysis showed no chemical, manual or mechanical forces involved in the bending of the key.


I tested Uri myself under laboratory-controlled conditions and saw with my own eyes the bending of a key which was not touched by Geller at any time. There was a group of people present during the experiment who all witnessed the key bending in eleven seconds to an angle of thirty degrees. Afterwards we tested the key in a scientific laboratory using devices such as electron microscopes and X-rays and found that there was no chemical, manual or mechanical forces involved in the bending of the key.

Professor Helmut Hoffmann. Department of Electrical Engineering, Technical University of Vienna, Austria.

 

[Subduction Zone]

There is no arguing with someone who WANTS to hold a certain position. Evidence and witnesses aren't going to be outwardly accepted once the heart is set on a certain view of things but internally they must start to doubt themselves.

You are only describing yourself. Ask yourself how would you feel if your beliefs about ESP were proven to be false (though they are so vague that is almost impossible). If you would feel disappointed then you are likely not a skeptic, but a believer. I on the other hand would be thrilled to be shown to be wrong in the paranormal. Unfortunately all I can see are fakes and frauds.. B level magicians at best.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Randi can not produce a bent key that under electron microscopic analysis showed no chemical, manual or mechanical forces involved in the bending of the key.

He has. I linked you a video with it. Geller has done nothing Randi wasn't able to figure out.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Randi can not produce a bent key that under electron microscopic analysis showed no chemical, manual or mechanical forces involved in the bending of the key.


I tested Uri myself under laboratory-controlled conditions and saw with my own eyes the bending of a key which was not touched by Geller at any time. There was a group of people present during the experiment who all witnessed the key bending in eleven seconds to an angle of thirty degrees. Afterwards we tested the key in a scientific laboratory using devices such as electron microscopes and X-rays and found that there was no chemical, manual or mechanical forces involved in the bending of the key.

Professor Helmut Hoffmann. Department of Electrical Engineering, Technical University of Vienna, Austria.

And this is why magicians are used to debunk Geller. There was no need for chemicals and non-experts, which is what Hoffmann was, can easily be taken in by magicians.

Why did Geller fail in such an epic manner on the Johnny Carson show?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

You are only describing yourself. Ask yourself how would you feel if your beliefs about ESP were proven to be false (though they are so vague that is almost impossible). If you would feel disappointed then you are likely not a skeptic, but a believer. I on the other hand would be thrilled to be shown to be wrong in the paranormal. Unfortunately all I can see are fakes and frauds.. B level magicians at best.

The world would probably be forever changed if psychic abilities were demonstrated to exist.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I do not think that Blaine would earn a trip to Las Vegas.

Im surprised he even has any shows. His tricks can be learned in numerous beginners books for magic, he doesn't step it up, mix it up, or apply the concepts in other ways, amd he doesn't even have a good gimmick or presentation of his tricks. I am very convinced he knows the tricks but not the principles and concepts of magic because of this. Ive known unknown amateurs who are better at magic. Because they know magic and dont do many out of the box tricks.
Considering that, it's no wonder Blaine was duped.

 

[George-ananda]

He has. I linked you a video with it. Geller has done nothing Randi wasn't able to figure out.

And this is why magicians are used to debunk Geller. There was no need for chemicals and non-experts, which is what Hoffmann was, can easily be taken in by magicians.

I guess you guys either don't or refuse to understand that the key was bent in a way not understood by science.

Afterwards we tested the key in a scientific laboratory using devices such as electron microscopes and X-rays and found that there was no chemical, manual or mechanical forces involved in the bending of the key.


Certainly Randi or anyone can bend a key with normal methods but those stresses could later be seen under microscopic analysis. Geller used a method yet unknown to science.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I guess you guys either don't or refuse to understand that the key was bent in a way not understood by science.

Afterwards we tested the key in a scientific laboratory using devices such as electron microscopes and X-rays and found that there was no chemical, manual or mechanical forces involved in the bending of the key.


Certainly Randi or anyone can bend a key with normal methods but those stresses could later be seen under microscopic analysis. Geller used a method yet unknown to science.

Claims without evidence are not worth much. I looked for this claim and found one link that only said that no chemicals were detected. When Randi does this trick he does not seem to use chemicals either. And you claimed that your expert was an Electrical Engineer. They are far form specialists when it comes to bent metals. Why wasn't a mechanical engineer the first choice?

 

[George-ananda]

Claims without evidence are not worth much. I looked for this claim and found one link that only said that no chemicals were detected. When Randi does this trick he does not seem to use chemicals either. And you claimed that your expert was an Electrical Engineer. They are far form specialists when it comes to bent metals. Why wasn't a mechanical engineer the first choice?

Here's another one

The bends in metal objects (made by Geller) could not have been made by ordinary manual means.

Dr Albert Ducrocq. Telemetry Laboratory, Foch Hospital Suren, France.

There's a few more quotes I've seen but I am sure you would show unyielding resistance to all of them.

In the end we each have to look in the mirror and decide who is unbiased towards the facts.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Here's another one

The bends in metal objects (made by Geller) could not have been made by ordinary manual means.

Dr Albert Ducrocq. Telemetry Laboratory, Foch Hospital Suren, France.

There's a few more quotes I've seen but I am sure you would show unyielding resistance to all of them.

In the end we each have to look in the mirror and decide who is unbiased towards the facts.

Quotes are worthless without sources. I can make up quotes too.

 

[George-ananda]

Quotes are worthless without sources. I can make up quotes too.

Sure but this is not my full time job. I have looked into this enough to know these are real people and quotes. Just giving readers here the highlights.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Sure but this is not my full time job. I have looked into this enough to know these are real people and quotes. Just giving readers here the highlights.

It does not have to be your full time job. Each time you post a "quote" and do not provide a link you in effect tell everyone that the quote is unreliable.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Just for fun I looked into one of the "quotes". The only source that I could find for it was from an Uri Geller website. Absolutely worthless.

Dr Albert Ducrocq - Uri Geller

When I looked into Ducrocq it does not appear that he even worked where Geller claimed that he did, though I could be wrong:

Albert Ducrocq — Wikipédia

Quotes that fall apart are worse than no quotes at all.

 

[George-ananda]

It does not have to be your full time job. Each time you post a "quote" and do not provide a link you in effect tell everyone that the quote is unreliable.

I’ll admit I do more work when responding to truly interested posters. By now I know not to shovel water uphill for those I feel are dead set already.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I’ll admit I do more work when responding to truly interested posters. By now I know not to shovel water uphill for those I feel are dead set already.

I am truly interested if you can find some valid evidence. But I do not think that you ever have. Meanwhile I did find a source where a scientist took back what he claimed for Geller:

How did Uri Geller bend spoons?

" A hasty electron microscope test proves little. A tragic demonstration of this occurred in 1972, when Will Franklin, a professor at Kent State University, reported that a ring Geller had allegedly bent psychically showed “unusual fracture surfaces” when examined under an electron microscope. These “provided evidence that a paranormal influence function was probably operative.” Five years later Franklin publicly confessed he’d misinterpreted the test results; the fracture surfaces on the ring were easily explained. (He persisted in the belief that other items had been bent psychokinetically.) Don’t think you’re any less susceptible to illusion."

A skeptic follows the evidence. Evidence from reliable sources. A believer follows his feelings.

 

[George-ananda]

I am truly interested if you can find some valid evidence. But I do not think that you ever have. Meanwhile I did find a source where a scientist took back what he claimed for Geller:

How did Uri Geller bend spoons?

" A hasty electron microscope test proves little. A tragic demonstration of this occurred in 1972, when Will Franklin, a professor at Kent State University, reported that a ring Geller had allegedly bent psychically showed “unusual fracture surfaces” when examined under an electron microscope. These “provided evidence that a paranormal influence function was probably operative.” Five years later Franklin publicly confessed he’d misinterpreted the test results; the fracture surfaces on the ring were easily explained. (He persisted in the belief that other items had been bent psychokinetically.) Don’t think you’re any less susceptible to illusion."

A skeptic follows the evidence. Evidence from reliable sources. A believer follows his feelings.

So your source is 'The Straight Dope'? With first sentence: By the sheer force of his powerful mind — powerful, that is, compared to those of the dopes who bought his line of baloney.

OK. Well I've been on this for decades and everything I've seen and digested does not have a neat link.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The bends in metal objects (made by Geller) could not have been made by ordinary manual means.

Geller used a method yet unknown to science.

Except he did, and he proves it when he can't perform when people are on to him.