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Featured God Chose Them but For What Purpose?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by james dixon, Jul 28, 2018.

?
  1. yes

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  2. no

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  3. have not decided yet

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  1. james dixon

    james dixon Well-Known Member
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    (Deu 7:6 KJV) For thou art a holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

    They were chosen to show us the way
    to show us how to treat the stranger
    to show us how to be compassionate
    to show us how to be loving to your neighbor
    to show us by their example
    &
    peace would then envelope the world​


    Did God make the right choice and if so how and if not; why not?
     
  2. Rival

    Rival Shtreimel Wearer
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    Do you ever do anything on here except bash Jewish people?
     
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  3. james dixon

    james dixon Well-Known Member
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    Forgive me but I am not bashing the Jewish people. I referenced a biblical verse and then posed a question. If you don't care to participate then don't.

    peace would then envelope the world​
     
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  4. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

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    They were priests to the nations. Yes... He made the right choice and, at least in Christian understanding, they will become the end-time evangelists.

    It was the right choice because He used the faith of Abraham to bless the nations. It was the right choice because the kept the scriptures. It was the right choice because through them He taught us to show us how to treat the stranger. to show us how to be compassionate,. to show us how to be loving to your neighbor. It was the right choice because through them the Messiah came and will come again.

    Peace will be upon this earth

    :D At least in my viewpoint.
     
  5. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    None of the things that you've written is written anywhere in the Tanach. You've even quoted Deut. 7:6 wrongly and neither the correct translation nor the translation you've provided mean are sources for anything else in your OP.
     
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  6. james dixon

    james dixon Well-Known Member
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    Saying it was the wrong version and proving it was the wrong version are two (2) different things. I am using the King James Version. You are welcome to use whatever version you care too but please provide the "evidence" you alluded too.

    Thanks in advance
    I want the world Jewish community to call upon the Jewish Israeli people to ask the Lord for forgiveness and repent for their sins and proclaiming the Palestinians as one of their own, children of God just as their children are.

    Am I asking too much?
     
  7. james dixon

    james dixon Well-Known Member
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    In this reference I am equating "them" to be the Israeli people. In your view, are the Israeli's showing us how to treat the stranger, how to be compassionate, showing us how to love your neighbor-?

    just asking
     
  8. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I find at Genesis 12:3 and Genesis 22:18 that God made a promise to Father Abraham that through his ' seed ' offspring would come Messiah. So, until Messiah came God dealt with only one nation, and that one nation was only ancient Israel.
    So, God made the right choice because mankind's history shows mankind can Not establish Peace on Earth, only Jesus, as Prince of Peace, can and will usher in global Peace on Earth among persons of goodwill.
     
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  9. james dixon

    james dixon Well-Known Member
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    I see no reason why one or many together cannot try; even you

    I want the world Jewish community to call upon the Jewish Israeli people to ask the Lord for forgiveness and repent for their sins and proclaiming the Palestinians as one of their own, children of God just as their children are.
     
  10. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Yes, according to Jesus' NEW commandment of John 13:34-35 we are to try.
    We are to have the same self-sacrificing practical love for others as Jesus has and treat them accordingly.
    And, as Jesus put emphasis about telling others about the good news of God's kingdom of Daniel 2:44 being the permanent solution to tell mankind because mankind can't bring about Peace on Earth.
    I find only Jesus, as Prince of Peace, can and will establish Peace on Earth among persons of goodwill.
     
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  11. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

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    It is fulfilled in the Jewish man... Jesus! He is every bit a "Chosen One". There is always a remnant.
     
  12. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    From the Tanach.....

    Deuteronomy 7:6-8...."For you are a holy people to the Lord, your God: the Lord your God has chosen you to be His treasured people, out of all the peoples upon the face of the earth.
    7 Not because you are more numerous than any people did the Lord delight in you and choose you, for you are the least of all the peoples.
    8 But because of the Lord's love for you, and because He keeps the oath He swore to your forefathers, the Lord took you out with a strong hand and redeemed you from the house of bondage, from the hand of Pharaoh, the king of Egypt."


    After saying this Moses adds this condition from Jehovah....

    "11 You shall therefore, observe the commandments, the statutes, and the ordinances, which I command you this day to do.
    12 And it will be, because you will heed these ordinances and keep them and perform, that the Lord, your God, will keep for you the covenant and the kindness that He swore to your forefathers."


    So what is this telling us now that we see the OP verse in context?

    Why did God choose Israel to be his people in the first place? Because they were more numerous than other people? No. He said that they were "the least of all people."
    He chose Israel because he needed a dedicated people who alone had his laws and were obligated by birth to keep them. He wanted to demonstrate his kindness that he swore to their forefathers.....but much of the time they were not recipients of it because they failed to keep God's laws.

    Out of all the people who could have been chosen, God picked out the only man on earth that he considered his "friend".....promising that his descendants would become "a kingdom of princes (kohen priests) and a holy nation" as a special dispensation to a very faithful and favored man.

    He wanted to demonstrate what a God can do for humankind in blessing them when they kept his commandments....but he was often reduced to punishing them because they didn't. He was pained about it. (Psalm 78:38-41)

    This relationship would provide a written record of God's dealings with one nation, his expectations of them and his response to those with whom he had this covenant relationship. No other nation on earth had what Israel had.
    All they had to do was keep their end of the bargain.

    God said....Exodus 19:4-6....

    "4 You have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and [how] I bore you on eagles' wings, and I brought you to Me
    5 And now, if you obey Me and keep My covenant, you shall be to Me a treasure out of all peoples, for Mine is the entire earth.
    6 And you shall be to Me a kingdom of princes (priests) and a holy nation.' These are the words that you shall speak to the children of Israel."


    So how does history show Israel's response as to keeping their covenant with their God?
    The deal was, "IF you keep my covenant, you shall be a treasure to me".....but what happened when they didn't?

    John the Baptist showed that just being born Jewish was no longer enough. It says in Matthew 3:7-9.....
    "When he caught sight of many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to the baptism, he said to them: “You offspring of vipers, who has warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Therefore, produce fruit that befits repentance. 9 Do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children for Abraham from these stones."

    Unless the Jews produced the fruits of repentance, there would be no healing and no more forgiveness. They showed by their treatment of Jesus and his apostles that their attitude towards God's prophets had not changed. (Matthew 23:37-39) They were incorrigible.


    "They were chosen to show us the way"...did they?

    " to show us how to treat the stranger"...did they?

    "to show us how to be compassionate"...did they?

    "to show us how to be loving to your neighbor"....did they?

    "to show us by their example".....how to be obedient to God's commands? Hardly.

    " peace would then envelope the world"....has it? Is Israel at peace...has the world really known peace at all in the last century?
    He made the right choice because he needed a nation from whom to produce their Savior. Abraham's descendants were as good as any. If it wasn't him, it would have been someone else. The Messiah had to come into the world.
    God followed through faithfully on the promise that he made to Abraham to bless the nations by means of his seed (Messiah).....and once he had fulfilled it, and Israel responded to him in the same way that they had responded to God's prophets in the past, Israel was cast off as the serial covenant breakers that they had shown themselves to be.

    I believe that Jesus told us what happened in Matthew 23:37-39. Their house was "abandoned".

    Individual Jews did recognize the Messiah and followed him (often with great difficulty) but by and large the nation rejected him and had him executed for a crime he did not commit.

    God chose a new nation....one "producing its fruits". The "Israel of God" was now made up of faithful Jews and Gentiles who were obedient disciples of the Christ, Jesus. (Galatians 6:16; Roman 9:6)

    This is the Christian view. I know that Jews will hotly deny these things, but this is the NT message as the scriptures tell it.
     
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  13. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    כי עם קדוש אתה לה' אלקיך בך בחר ה' אלקיך להיות לו לעם סגלה מכל העמים אשר על פני האדמה

    Because / [a] nation / holy / you [are] / to the L-rd / your G-d / in you / chose / [the] L-rd / your G-d / to be / for him / for a nation / treasure / from all / the nations / that [are] / on / [the] face / [of] the ground


    This colorful masterpiece is a word-for-word translation of the verse. As you can see, it describes our relationship with G-d, not with other nations. So your translation of "above all peoples" is wrong. Also and more to the point, nothing here about being chosen to show any other peoples any way to do anything.
     
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  14. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    You started off great, but then you veered into unsubstantiated territory. It doesn't say that G-d wanted to demonstrate His kindness as the reason that G-d chose us. It also doesn't say anything about G-d wanting to demonstrate to humankind anything.
    That wasn't a deal. We never find that G-d renegs on the covenant. The word "אם (if)" here is therefore more properly translated as "if only", a request like "if only you would". It's counterpart can be found in Psa. 139:19. With this translation, the verse conforms to other passages indicating that G-d would punish us for our sins (which He does), but never reneg on the covenant.

    The rest is Christians theology, so there's no need for me to argue.
     
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  15. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    I said that God chose Israel because of his relationship with Abraham. But I was quoting what the Tanach said..."to keep the covenant and the kindness that he swore to their forefathers".

    "11 You shall therefore, observe the commandments, the statutes, and the ordinances, which I command you this day to do.
    12 And it will be, because you will heed these ordinances and keep them and perform, that the Lord, your God, will keep for you the covenant and the kindness that He swore to your forefathers."


    But I see a command here not a request.

    "And now, if you obey Me and keep My covenant, you shall be to Me a treasure out of all peoples, for Mine is the entire earth." (Exodus 19:5)

    The Tanach says "if" so if it was meant to be translated "if only" like it is in Psalm 139:19, then why was it not done? "If" makes it conditional, doesn't it?

    God does not renege on his covenants unless he gives prior warning. The old covenant was going to be replaced by the new covenant.

    "Behold, days are coming, says the Lord, and I will form a covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, a new covenant. להִנֵּ֛ה יָמִ֥ים בָּאִ֖ים נְאֻם־יְהֹוָ֑ה וְכָֽרַתִּ֗י אֶת־בֵּ֧ית יִשְׂרָאֵ֛ל וְאֶת־בֵּ֥ית יְהוּדָ֖ה בְּרִ֥ית חֲדָשָֽׁה:

    31Not like the covenant that I formed with their forefathers on the day I took them by the hand to take them out of the land of Egypt, that they broke My covenant, although I was a lord over them, says the Lord. לאלֹ֣א כַבְּרִ֗ית אֲשֶׁ֚ר כָּרַ֙תִּי֙ אֶת־אֲבוֹתָ֔ם בְּיוֹם֙ הֶֽחֱזִיקִ֣י בְיָדָ֔ם לְהֽוֹצִיאָ֖ם מֵאֶ֖רֶץ מִצְרָ֑יִם אֲשֶׁר־הֵ֜מָּה הֵפֵ֣רוּ אֶת־בְּרִיתִ֗י וְאָֽנֹכִ֛י בָּעַ֥לְתִּי בָ֖ם נְאֻם־יְהֹוָֽה:
    For this is the covenant that I will form with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will place My law in their midst and I will inscribe it upon their hearts, and I will be their God and they shall be My people. לבכִּ֣י זֹ֣את הַבְּרִ֡ית אֲשֶׁ֣ר אֶכְרֹת֩ אֶת־בֵּ֨ית יִשְׂרָאֵ֜ל אַֽחֲרֵ֨י הַיָּמִ֚ים הָהֵם֙ נְאֻם־יְהֹוָ֔ה נָתַ֚תִּי אֶת־תּֽוֹרָתִי֙ בְּקִרְבָּ֔ם וְעַל־לִבָּ֖ם אֶכְתֳּבֶ֑נָּה וְהָיִ֚יתִי לָהֶם֙ לֵֽאלֹהִ֔ים וְהֵ֖מָּה יִֽהְיוּ־לִ֥י לְעָֽם: " (Jeremiah 31:30-32)


    When one party breaks a covenant doesn't it become null and void? A covenant is like a legal contract, isn't it?

    According to Jeremiah, the old covenant was not going to be permanent, but the new covenant was. It was going to do away with the written code and be replaced with a law inscribed on hearts.

    The "rainbow"covenant with Noah was everlasting.
    The Abrahamic covenant was everlasting too. But when God found that his people were not ever going to be faithful to him, once he had fulfilled his end of the agreement to produce the Messiah, he had no reason to keep a disobedient people as his own any longer, so he changed what the definition of "Jew" was....it went from old covenant fleshly Israel, under Moses, to new covenant 'spiritual' Israel under Jesus Christ.....but that is sliding right into Christian theology again.

    I understand.
     
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  16. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    That doesn't seem to be a command or a request, but an explanation. Either way, this verse still doesn't say anything about demonstrating anything to humankind.

    I don't think you understand what I meant. In Psa. 139:19 it also says the same word and over there it is translated as "if only".
    ועתה אם שמוע
    And now / if / listen
    אם תקטל אלוק רשע
    If
    / you will kill / G-d / wicked

    Same word. Apparently, the word "אם" can be used to indicate a condition or a request. Translating it one way or the other isn't wrong in either verse as far as the translation of the word goes. But in order to create uniformity throughout the text, one translation is preferable.



    That is not renegging on the covenant, that's just strengthening it even more. It's the same terms as before. The Law that was given in our midst will be written internally on our hearts.

    Not necessarily. You can have terms that if one party breaks a contract, they receive a fine or something. It all depends on the nature of the contract.

    I'm not sure if you actually understood what is written in Jeremiah. It says that the Torah that was previously external -you had to find a book and read it, to know what it says - would become internal, you could know what it says just by looking inside yourself. It's not doing away with the Law itself, just changing how we access it.

    Nothing really substantiated here, or deserving of response.
     
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  17. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    When I read what is written, it is certainly a conditional arrangement. The word "because" is used too, so the condition was, God would keep his covenant with Israel as long as they obeyed his commands.....it is a matter of record that they failed time and again.

    Just curious as to why you believe that God chose Israel, and for what reason and outcome? What do you see as the 'big picture'?

    Translation is everything. Men have been translating scripture to suit their own ideas for many centuries. The word "if" in Exodus 19:5 means a condition. To claim that it was merely a request, lets Israel off the hook, doesn't it....but that is not how it is translated in your own scripture.

    Jesus commented on how scripture was twisted when he was castigating the Pharisees in his day. Has anything changed?

    For men, (of any religious persuasion who claim to worship the God of Abraham) twisting the words of scripture in order to retain a convenient belief has become an art form, but for the author of scripture, there is only one translation. I'm sure we will all know his opinion on the truth of translation soon enough.

    It clearly states that the old would be replaced by the new. That isn't reneging, it is indicating that the old covenant served a purpose for the time it was in operation, but the new covenant was to be permanent, serving a purpose that was everlasting....the establishment of God's Kingdom in the hands of his Messiah.

    Yes! "The nature of the contract"......the one you make with the Sovereign of the Universe....pretty important huh? How does one break a law of God which carried serious penalties, and treat it like it was something you could merely pay a fine for? I don't see that in God's covenant with Abraham's descendants. A covenant was a legally binding contract with all that is inherent in such arrangements. Where do you see something different?

    I guess that is the way you read it in order to retain your own belief system. The Law was a written document and it was given so that men would read those laws and keep them under the guidance of those appointed to teach and act as guides or shepherds for the people.
    Something written is not easily forgotten but it can be misinterpreted and twisted. The Christian scriptures tell us that the Pharisees invented ways to misinterpret the law and make it seem as if it was being kept when they were actually violating the principles behind it. Jesus mentioned the ways they did this, but it is in Christian scripture, which you reject. (Matthew 15:3-6; Mark 7:9-13)

    The Pharisees in Jesus' day were strictly legalistic, but forgot the mercy and love that was to be incorporated in the administration of the law. Isn't that why the Talmud was written? Isn't that the code by which devout Jews live, even today? How did the Talmud come to be viewed as more important than the word of God? It teaches Jews to think legalistically, not in terms of God's justice, mercy and love. Ritual 'performance' then replaces the more important aspects of worship as I see it. I don't think God wants mere performance. There are so many other important things to devote time and attention to.

    Upholding God's laws is important, but 'living' the the principles of 'love of God and neighbor' were the foundations of the Law....now inscribed on hearts.
     
    #17 Deeje, Jul 29, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2018
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  18. james dixon

    james dixon Well-Known Member
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    It is not "my" translation, it is an English version of the KJV bible. If you are asking me to believe your translation that basically say the same thing then no, I will stick with the Bible I have in my hand and not your colorful mumbo-jumbo.

    no animosity intended or implied
     
  19. james dixon

    james dixon Well-Known Member
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    Maybe, maybe not. But the following cannot be disputed regardless of which translation you prefer to use.

    Ezekiel

    1 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

    2 Son of man, set thy face toward Jerusalem, and drop thy word toward the holy places, and prophesy against the land of Israel,

    3 And say to the land of Israel, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I am against thee, and will draw forth my sword out of his sheath, and will cut off from thee the righteous and the wicked.

    4 Seeing then that I will cut off from thee the righteous and the wicked, therefore shall my sword go forth out of his sheath against all flesh from the south to the north:

    7 And it shall be, when they say unto thee, Wherefore sighest thou? that thou shalt answer, For the tidings; because it cometh: and every heart shall melt, and all hands shall be feeble, and every spirit shall faint, and all knees shall be weak as water: behold, it cometh, and shall be brought to pass, saith the Lord GOD.

    9 Son of man, prophesy, and say, Thus saith the LORD; Say, A sword, a sword is sharpened, and also furbished:

    12 Cry and howl, son of man: for it shall be upon my people, it shall be upon all the princes of Israel: terrors by reason of the sword shall be upon my people: smite therefore upon thy thigh.

    13 Because it is a trial, and what if the sword contemn even the rod? it shall be no more, saith the Lord GOD.

    17 I will also smite mine hands together, and I will cause my fury to rest: I the LORD have said it.

    20 Appoint a way, that the sword may come to Rabbath of the Ammonites, and to Judah in Jerusalem the defenced.

    24 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye have made your iniquity to be remembered, in that your transgressions are discovered, so that in all your doings your sins do appear; because, I say, that ye are come to remembrance, ye shall be taken with the hand.

    25 And thou, profane wicked prince of Israel, whose day is come, when iniquity shall have an end,

    27 I will overturn, overturn, overturn, it: and it shall be no more, until he come whose right it is; and I will give it him.

    29 Whiles they see vanity unto thee, whiles they divine a lie unto thee, to bring thee upon the necks of them that are slain, of the wicked, whose day is come, when their iniquity shall have an end.

    30 Shall I cause it to return into his sheath? I will judge thee in the place where thou wast created, in the land of thy nativity.

    31 And I will pour out mine indignation upon thee, I will blow against thee in the fire of my wrath, and deliver thee into the hand of brutish men, and skilful to destroy.

    32 Thou shalt be for fuel to the fire; thy blood shall be in the midst of the land; thou shalt be no more remembered: for I the LORD have spoken it.


    According to a 2002 study by the Jewish Agency, "the number of Jews in the world is declining at an average of 50,000 per year."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_population
     
  20. james dixon

    james dixon Well-Known Member
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    Then we have this----------

    (Ezek 36:17 KJV) Son of man, when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land, they defiled it by their ..own way and by their doings: their way was before me as the uncleanness of a removed woman.

    (Ezek 36:18 KJV) Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood that they had shed upon the land, and for their idols wherewith they had polluted it.

    (Ezek 36:22 KJV) Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.

    Sadly, even in the past 50 years they continue to do
    the same!!!
    (Ezek 36:24 KJV) For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

    (Ezek 36:31 KJV) Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall loathe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations.

    (Ezek 36:32 KJV) Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel.
     
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