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Featured God Chose Them but For What Purpose?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by james dixon, Jul 28, 2018.

?
  1. yes

    3 vote(s)
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  2. no

    1 vote(s)
    20.0%
  3. have not decided yet

    1 vote(s)
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Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Since voting is not compulsory in your country, vast numbers of people refrain because they are sick of the lies and broken promises. It's the same in my country, but voting is compulsory where I live. If you don't believe what the Bible says about who is ruling this world, (1 John 5:19)....then what more can be said?

    I have never voted in my life.....I am proud of that.

    Anyone can justify whatever they want to do. IMV, nationalism is a 'religion' that rivals any other that strongly touches the emotions.

    Really? Can you name me any politicians who are really trustworthy? Do they fulfill their promises? Once you realise that it is the system that is broken, then nothing even sincere humans do to try to patch it up will work....it never has. Has your nation ever been more divided? Look at other nations...do you see anything better? The world is sinking into a moral morass of indecision and despair. You think God rules such a world?

    "Cons?" Is Jesus a "con"? He was the one who told us not to be part of this world. (John 18:36)

    Paul said the world is ruled by its god, (the devil) who has the power to 'blind people's minds' (2 Corinthians 4:3-4)

    "But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them." (KJV)

    Horrible translation! :confused:

    More modern English....
    "And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God." (ESV)

    Did you read the scripture?

    James 4:4....(ESV)
    "You adulterous people! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God."

    There it is......

    No thanks, I am not American, and I will never disobey Christ and support the devil in his manipulation of this worlds rulership. I will wait patiently for God to sort it all out in his own time and way. His kingdom will come and his will can then be carried out "on earth as it is in heaven"....do you believe this?

    I see a lot of anger and violence spawed by elections in many nations. James 1:19 applies I think.

    What do you believe the "Kingdom" is that Jesus taught us to pray for?
     
  2. james dixon

    james dixon Well-Known Member
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    Since it is illegal for you to vote in the USA; not voting is a good move on your part.

    But the rest of us who are American citizens have the right to vote so I urge ALL Americans to get out and VOTE!!!!!
     
  3. james dixon

    james dixon Well-Known Member
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    Yes, but the kingdom you are referring to is not the kingdom I belong too
     
  4. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Can I ask what you think it will accomplish? What has it ever accomplished for the long term good? The whole world is in political turmoil because, as we all know, "power corrupts" humans. We have seen this all down through history. The world's political leaders often live in the lap of luxury whilst so many of their constituents suffer extreme poverty and homelessness.

    Even those who enter politics with good motives, soon realise that they are but a small cog in a very big machine that will move ahead in its own direction, no matter what anyone says or does to alter the agenda. What began in Genesis finishes in Revelation....nothing can stop God's purpose from being carried out.
    Bible prophesy will be fulfilled and it doesn't need "Christians" to interfere in any way. This is why we are to be "no part of this world".

    Did Jesus ever try to overthrow the Roman Empire who were oppressing his people? He could have called on a vast angelic army....yet he did nothing but encourage his disciples to be peaceful and law abiding, whilst "the appointed times of the nations" continued to run their course. Most people have never heard of this, but in the book of Daniel there is a succession of world powers listed that began with Babylon and end with Anglo-America. In Jesus' day the Roman Empire was still to be replaced by Britain and finally the alliance of Britain and America. These are the last rulers before God's Kingdom was to "come" and forceably remove and replace satanically inspired rulership forever. (Daniel 2:44) Those who support those rulerships will go down with them.

    What Kingdom do you belong to?
     
    #44 Deeje, Aug 11, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2018
  5. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    This is rich. I’d be laughing if it weren’t so pathetic. Here we have a Jew, obviously well-versed in the theology, texts, language and history, patiently explaining translational nuances, and instead of going, “Oh, I didn’t know that; thanks!” The OP simply waves his arms and yells louder, telling the Jew why his translation is wrong, while waving the KJV in the air. And then, a JW chimes in, also calling the translation into question.

    If y’all want to know why Xy is dying in Europe and the US, this right here is why. Who wants to join a bunch of self-righteous, hubris-ridden a-holes, who are convinced they’re “right” and will condemn any who dare defy them?

    And @james dixon, I doubt you’re a Jew. A Jew wouldn’t stick to the KJV — a decidedly Christian product.
     
  6. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Wow sojourner, what precipitated that outburst? o_O

    If the JW 'chiming in' was me, then I did not call the Jewish translation into question at all, but quoted it directly from the Tanach, as Tumah did. Just because someone is well versed in their own theology is no guarantee that they interpret scripture correctly. The Pharisees in Jesus day were supposedly well versed in Judaism (the Talmud, more so than the Torah) but Jesus was singularly unimpressed with their scholarship.
    Credential don't mean much to God....they only impress other humans.

    I agree to a point...no one likes unpleasant exchanges, but it is possible to disagree agreeably where possible. An exchanging of ideas doesn't have to end badly.

    But if you are referring to my exchanges with @Tumah or @james dixon then I am assuming that you didn't read them. All Tumah offered were lame excuses as to why the Jewish interpretation was right. Reading scripture one way, the Jews are guilty, but reading it another way, means that they are innocent.....guess which one he chose?

    There is a distinct difference between a request and a command. When God says "if" you do this...then I will do that. If the consequence is severe for failing to do it, then it wasn't a request. "If" did not mean "if only".

    OTOH my exchanges with james dixon were mainly concerning a Christians' involvement in politics. Not something Jesus promoted in my understanding.

    I am sorry you felt the need to vent that way. :(
     
  7. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    There’s the hubris again! It’s his language, his text, and his religion. Some people argue with doctors about their health care, too, because they “read something on the internet.”
     
  8. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    You are right, I am mistaken. I was referring to the other passage you had quoted Ex. 19:4-6. The verse you are quoting says that following our observance of G-d's commandments, G-d reciprocates with fulfilling the covenant and kindness that He swore to our forefathers. Some generations were successful in this endeavor and they received the fulfillment of the covenant and kindness. Some generations were not, and they lost it.

    We were chosen to be given the Torah of G-d as required observance. The world was created to express G-d's kingship. That is made manifest on the individual and national level by fulfilling G-d's Will as it is expressed in the Torah.

    And like Jesus' speeches, your response sounds nice as but it doesn't really address the issue it claims to be. Essentially all you're saying is that the translation I provided, does not fit with your theological position. That's not a valid argument. I gave you an example where the word clearly has an alternate meaning according to pretty much all translators. If you want to prove that I am wrong, you need to explain why that alternate translation of the word is not valid for this instance...And the reason can't be something along the lines of "that doesn't fit with what I believe about the Jewish people". A good trick that I learned in grade school to make sure that our answers fit the questions was by starting off the answer with wording from the question.

    Aside from that, this translation doesn't let Israel off any hook. It simply means that this particular passage is not a command, but a personal request from G-d that we fulfill His Will so that He can reward us as He wants to. It expresses G-d's desire to do good for us. If we need to look at what happens if we don't fulfill G-d's Will, there are plenty of other passages for that. This just isn't one of them.

    Except that's not what it says. If you actually read what it says, you'll see that what the prophet is describing is the same Torah would no longer be external, but internal. no change to the content of the Torah itself is described, only a change to how it is accessed. Not only is that what it literally says, it's impossible for it to say otherwise because of the significant number of verses that claim that the Torah is eternal.

    Because the penalty for breaking the covenant was already stipulated in the covenant at length. See Deuteronomy chapters 28:15-69, 29:17-27. That is the fine we have paid and are paying for breaking the covenant. There is nowhere in those passages that you will find that G-d annuls the covenant between us. That is not what happens. We are penalized, heavily. And after we've paid the fine, we turn to chapter 30:1-10 and we find that the covenant picks up where it left off: we repent and begin following G-d's commandments again, and everything returns to how it should be.

    Unfortunately, it appears that while you are good at rhetoric, you are not very good at looking in the mirror. Perhaps it's your own translation that is the twisted one, that allows you to hold onto your belief system?

    The Christian scriptures is great at leveling claims, but, not so great at proving that it's claims are valid. Which is understandable as it was clearly written with intent to arouse the unlearned masses against the Rabbis of the time, so details like 'proof' and 'sound critique' aren't really as necessary as a fiery, heart-stirring messages. But for the learned among us, it does leave a lot to be desired.

    No they didn't.
    No it wasn't. That doesn't even make any sense. Can you imagine a judge who decides to let you go for manslaughter because he loves you so much. A judge doesn't have that kind of authority and neither do the Rabbis.
    The Talmud was written to elucidate the Laws of the Mishnah and provide other theological inheritances to the next generation.

    No, the Talmud isn't a codified text. The Halachah, which is derived from certain parts of the Talmud, is the code by which we live. The Talmud speaks on a broader range of topics that just Law.

    It didn't. Christians just say it because it helps with their self-esteem. The content of the Talmud is important inasmuch as it elucidates the message G-d is trying to convey to us and also passes to us the traditions of our forefathers. It doesn't really have it's own inherent importance.

    Have you ever wondered why it is that you believe that these things are mutually exclusive? Are Christians prohibited from becoming Supreme Court judges, because their study of law teaches them to think legalistically instead of in terms of G-d's justice, mercy and love? Is it impossible for a judge to also be a philanthropist?
    Instead of just repeating what you've heard, why don't you think about whether the claims even make any sense? Is there any reason why one can't think legalistically and also be a bastion of justice mercy and love? Do you know for sure that the Talmud doesn't teach about justice, mercy and love?

    And as a follow-up, does it sound logical to you that G-d should devote virtually entire Books to legal codes while at the same time teach that one shouldn't focus their attention on following the legal codes therein? Do you not believe that He could have simply left out the legal code part and spent all that room focusing on teaching justice, mercy and love? Or perhaps reworded the commandments to indicate their lack of importance?
    I can only say that your position doesn't seem to make a lot of sense in relation to what we find G-d having said.

    This does not follow from what you were saying before. But let's be honest, you're not really trying to level a solid argument, you're just regurgitating the same critiques that Christians ignorant of what is actually taught in any major Jewish texts have been leveling at Jews.

    You think performance replaced important aspects of worship because your religion doesn't really have any ritual. My religion on the other hand, has for instance, Leviticus which is almost an entire Book dedicated to ritual commandments that G-d commanded us. This indicates that ritual is in fact very important to G-d. In fact, it is so important to G-d that He's willing to penalize us with death and destruction for not abiding by this ritual. That sounds like He gives it a lot more importance than you do.

    But a point that Christians have difficulty with - and I lay the blame at the hands of the authors of the NT - is that while ritual is important, not only ritual is important. It is also important to correctly relate to the ritual in it's capacity of bringing one closer to G-d through it's meaning and spirit. In other words - and you may want to sit down for this one - BOTH ritual performance AND spirit of the ritual are VITAL. Fulfilling the spirit without the ritual is like a lost, wandering soul. Fulfilling the ritual without the meaning, is like a dead body. Christians typically refuse to believe that Jews believe in the existence of a "spirit of the Law" because we don't believe that this spirit of the Law is what Christians claim it to be. But unlike Christians who fabricate a spirit of the law by generalizing from a handful of basic concepts, the Jewish spirit of the Law uses a finer brush: each Law is meant to integrate within us a new concept or angle to a concept. We literally have hundreds if not thousands of books teaching us these things. And they're all based on the Talmud and associated works.

    Only the first 5 words here are true. The following statement is a [perhaps intentional] mangling of a principle first enunciated by Hillel. And the last 4 words are obviously false as can be seen from walking outside.
     
  9. james dixon

    james dixon Well-Known Member
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    **********************
     
  10. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    That doesn't make him right. It just makes him a believer. Jesus had big problems with Judaism, remember?

    Its better than treating doctors like 'gods' who can't be wrong. Dr Google is not a dead loss.

    I have absolutely no faith in the established medical system which is big on pills $$$$ and low on cures in case you hadn't noticed.
     
  11. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Well that was deep and meaningful...:p
     
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  12. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Israel was chosen for no other reason than that they were the offspring of his friend Abraham. The promised seed had to come into the world as a human, so who better than the descendants of a most faithful man alive to produce him? What a shame his descendants did not emulate his faith and obedience.

    The world would have continued to enjoy God's Kingship if Adam had simply obeyed his Creator. There would have been no necessity for a Redeemer or a Messiah, a code of law, or even for a nation of Israel, because all those things were a response to Adam's sin.

    What would have happened if Adam had chosen not to disobey? We wouldn't be having this conversation, would we?

    Your own translation did not render it the way you suggested. That is what does not fit with your claim. It says "if"...not "if only". That takes it from a command to a suggestion. It was a command....a bargain. If Israel obeyed, God would respond positively...if they didn't he would respond negatively.

    At what point in time did the "new covenant" come into force for Israel? With what events did such a monumental change take place? When did the Law become something "internal" for Jews? Or hasn't it happened yet?

    And what happened after that? Did Israel remain obedient to their God? What about during the days of the prophets...Joshua to Malachi? What is Israel's record there in view of what it says in Deuteronomy 30?

    Continuing on in verses15-20....

    "Behold, I have set before you today life and good, and death and evil, טורְאֵ֨ה נָתַ֤תִּי לְפָנֶ֨יךָ֙ הַיּ֔וֹם אֶת־הַֽחַיִּ֖ים וְאֶת־הַטּ֑וֹב וְאֶת־הַמָּ֖וֶת וְאֶת־הָרָֽע:

    16 inasmuch as I command you this day to love the Lord, your God, to walk in His ways, and to observe His commandments, His statutes, and His ordinances, so that you will live and increase, and the Lord, your God, will bless you in the land to which you are coming to take possession of it. טזאֲשֶׁ֨ר אָֽנֹכִ֣י מְצַוְּךָ֘ הַיּוֹם֒ לְאַֽהֲבָ֞ה אֶת־יְהֹוָ֤ה אֱלֹהֶ֨יךָ֙ לָלֶ֣כֶת בִּדְרָכָ֔יו וְלִשְׁמֹ֛ר מִצְו‍ֹתָ֥יו וְחֻקֹּתָ֖יו וּמִשְׁפָּטָ֑יו וְחָיִ֣יתָ וְרָבִ֔יתָ וּבֵֽרַכְךָ֙ יְהֹוָ֣ה אֱלֹהֶ֔יךָ בָּאָ֕רֶץ אֲשֶׁר־אַתָּ֥ה בָא־שָׁ֖מָּה לְרִשְׁתָּֽהּ:

    17 But if your heart deviates and you do not listen, and you will be drawn astray, and you will prostrate yourself to other deities and serve them, יזוְאִם־יִפְנֶ֥ה לְבָֽבְךָ֖ וְלֹ֣א תִשְׁמָ֑ע וְנִדַּחְתָּ֗ וְהִשְׁתַּֽחֲוִ֛יתָ לֵֽאלֹהִ֥ים אֲחֵרִ֖ים וַֽעֲבַדְתָּֽם:

    18 I declare to you this day, that you will surely perish, and that you will not live long days on the land, to which you are crossing the Jordan, to come and take possession thereof. יחהִגַּ֤דְתִּי לָכֶם֙ הַיּ֔וֹם כִּ֥י אָבֹ֖ד תֹּאבֵד֑וּן לֹא־תַֽאֲרִיכֻ֤ן יָמִים֙ עַל־הָ֣אֲדָמָ֔ה אֲשֶׁ֨ר אַתָּ֤ה עֹבֵר֙ אֶת־הַיַּרְדֵּ֔ן לָב֥וֹא שָׁ֖מָּה לְרִשְׁתָּֽהּ:

    19 This day, I call upon the heaven and the earth as witnesses [that I have warned] you: I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. You shall choose life, so that you and your offspring will live; יטהַֽעִדֹ֨תִי בָכֶ֣ם הַיּוֹם֘ אֶת־הַשָּׁמַ֣יִם וְאֶת־הָאָ֒רֶץ֒ הַֽחַיִּ֤ים וְהַמָּ֨וֶת֙ נָתַ֣תִּי לְפָנֶ֔יךָ הַבְּרָכָ֖ה וְהַקְּלָלָ֑ה וּבָֽחַרְתָּ֙ בַּֽחַיִּ֔ים לְמַ֥עַן תִּֽחְיֶ֖ה אַתָּ֥ה וְזַרְעֶֽךָ:
    To love the Lord your God, to listen to His voice, and to cleave to Him. For that is your life and the length of your days, to dwell on the land which the Lord swore to your forefathers to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob to give to them. כלְאַֽהֲבָה֙ אֶת־יְהֹוָ֣ה אֱלֹהֶ֔יךָ לִשְׁמֹ֥עַ בְּקֹל֖וֹ וּלְדָבְקָה־ב֑וֹ כִּ֣י ה֤וּא חַיֶּ֨יךָ֙ וְאֹ֣רֶךְ יָמֶ֔יךָ לָשֶׁ֣בֶת עַל־הָֽאֲדָמָ֗ה אֲשֶׁר֩ נִשְׁבַּ֨ע יְהֹוָ֧ה לַֽאֲבֹתֶ֛יךָ לְאַבְרָהָ֛ם לְיִצְחָ֥ק וּלְיַֽעֲקֹ֖ב לָתֵ֥ת לָהֶֽם:

    What happened? How many times were God's prophets heeded? You already know.

    When I look at Israel's history, all recorded for us in the very same Hebrew writings that you have, I see that Jesus' evaluation of them was correct....they did not change. They did not listen to the prophets God sent and they did not obey them. The "learned" among the Pharisees of Jesus' day were hypocrites of the worst order. The "unlearned masses" were never considered important by the "learned ones" anyway. Education means nothing if your teachers are passing on falsehood. You point fingers at the Christians but what about Israel's appalling record?

    Written by whom? Not God. What "theological inheritance" was left to the next generation? Has Israel been experiencing God's blessing in the last century? Is Jerusalem a city of peace? Look around you.

    The Law was not rocket science...why did it need elucidating? As I see it, all that did was make the simple teachings of the Law more complicated and rigid than God ever intended them to be.

    It is from God, how could it lack inherent importance? How could men add to it and plump it out without changing it?

    The scriptures teach about justice, mercy and love.....but did the Pharisees in the first century follow what it said? Jesus said they didn't. Who do I believe and why? Who do you believe and why? Impasse.

    Do you uphold all of those rituals still? What about the communion sacrifices? The sin offering? The guilt offering? If they were so important in Leviticus, why are they not carried out today as they were prescribed in the Law?

    Isn't that the problem though? All you needed was one...the one authored by God.
     
    #52 Deeje, Sep 6, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2018
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  13. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    G-d is not racial*. Quran clearly mention it.

    Regards
    _____________

    *Quran
    [2:125]
    And remember when his Lord tried Abraham with certain commands which he fulfilled. He said, ‘I will make thee a Leader of men.’Abraham asked, ‘And from among my offspring?’ He said, ‘My covenant does not embrace the transgressors.’
    The Holy Quran - Chapter: 2: Al-Baqarah
     
  14. Jacob Samuelson

    Jacob Samuelson New Member

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    I am forever grateful for the Jews! Perhaps there has never been a more intriguing people than they. A true example of both good and bad. They were the first to accept the One and true God. God blessed them and showed them the truth. With great responsibility added to them, they had the chance to keep it or give it away. Tradition and manipulation of truth blinded their motives and eventually they gave up their rights to pass down the truth to the followers of Christ. Even the Christians with their mighty claims of understanding the divinity of Christ were not exempt for following the wicked paths that the Jews created. Today much of Christianity is dictated by tradition and manipulation buckled by the responsibilities the Jews 'passed' to them. They are no different. Humans are no different. So where would God entrust His truth to all people? Think about it for a sec. The real question is... is there in this wicked deceitful world a true church that holds all the responsibility of God. Let me know if you found one.
     
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  15. james dixon

    james dixon Well-Known Member
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    So long as we all vote; that direction remains straight; as long as -- ***We ALL***

    VOTE
     
  16. james dixon

    james dixon Well-Known Member
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    You have no right to judge another in this way-

    Only the Lord has that right, and the Lord my be referred to as "God" & He is judging you right now ----

    as I see it :)-
     
  17. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    That is simply not true. No government formed by man has ever brought about equal opportunity for all.
    Democracies are an illusion. There is no freedom. Very few are content with their lot in life and most people whine about bad government all over the world.
    And the whining is getting louder in case you haven't noticed....:facepalm: The people who don't vote, know that there is no one worth voting for.
    What politician ever keeps a promise?

    As a Christian I know who rules this world and I won't have a bar of it. (1 John 5:19) Jesus told us not to be part of this rat race....the rats are getting fatter every day. Too much McDonalds perhaps? :p
     
  18. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

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    Christian JW
    I believe I found one about 48 years ago.....and I'm still there.....still learning....still appreciating the precious gems that tumble from God's word. [​IMG] Nothing and no one is this world is perfect, but God never asked for perfection...he only ever asked for obedience.
     
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  19. james dixon

    james dixon Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

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    a baby Baptized Catholic,, Baptized Baptist in my 20's
    Never-the-less; it is a goal God has directed us to achieve over time; If, and only if we give ourselves the time..,,/\.,.

    In my point of view
    How about "you"=-?

    Then you must be a Republicon-?

    Most?

    Except for you; my sweet plump ,dumpling :)-

    You are not even most, not even close.
    You are why the term "extinct" was created in the first place.

    A one-of-a-kind never AGAIN TO BE REPEATED.
    such is life- (;-

     
    #59 james dixon, Sep 9, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2018
  20. james dixon

    james dixon Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
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    a baby Baptized Catholic,, Baptized Baptist in my 20's
    Oh Wise One please tells us what you remember.,.,.,so we may know-?
     
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