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Featured Genesis Account of Creation: Firmament

Discussion in 'Science and Religion' started by osgart, Nov 12, 2019.

  1. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    Correction:The Firmament that separates the waters above from the waters below.

    Where exactly is the Firmament located? And what is the Firmament exactly?

    There is no waters above the Earth. So, as I was informed, the water vapors are what Genesis was supposedly referring to.



    Would the Firmament be wetlands at ocean depths?

    Would the Firmament be atmospheric?

    How do you reconcile Genesis creation account with Geology?

    I am thinking that the Genesis writer saw blue skies and figured there was water in the skies that was vaulted and would release rain from time to time.

    Also in another book the circle of the Earth is mentioned. A circle is not a sphere so I am under the impression that the writer saw Earth as a dome with a circle of flat land.

    So basically as it appears:

    1)Waters above
    Firmament
    Waters below

    2) Then the waters above and below gathered unto one place and the dry land appeared.
     
    #1 osgart, Nov 12, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2019
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  2. Terry Sampson

    Terry Sampson ζει

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    So say you. Aristotle, however, tells us [Metaphysics 983 b6 8-11] that, according to Thales (one of the Seven Wise Men, 6th century BCE) the originating principle of all matter was a single substance: water, and that the earth was a flat disk that floats in the "cosmic sea." Thales of Miletus | Greek philosopher



    Orlando Ferguson Flat Earth Map B.jpg
     
    #2 Terry Sampson, Nov 12, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2019
  3. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    Google Image Result for https://sites.google.com/a/jenksms.com/kelly-marler56/_/rsrc/1367615874497/atmosphere/atmosphere%20%281%29.jpg?height=240&width=320

    And what say you of these images?
     
  4. Terry Sampson

    Terry Sampson ζει

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    I don't see any angels. :D
     
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  5. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    The firmament, I believe, is the atmosphere.
    The apostle Peter explains why the waters above the expanse are no longer there. Speaking of the time when God flooded the world, and correlating that with the time of Christ's return, he said...

    2 Peter 3:3-7....
    "First of all know this, that in the last days ridiculers will come with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires 4 and saying: “Where is this promised presence of his? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep in death, all things are continuing exactly as they were from creation’s beginning.

    5 For they deliberately ignore this fact, that long ago there were heavens and an earth standing firmly out of water and in the midst of water by the word of God; 6 and that by those means the world of that time suffered destruction when it was flooded with water. 7 But by the same word the heavens and the earth that now exist are reserved for fire and are being kept until the day of judgment and of destruction of the ungodly people."


    It appears as if God used the water suspended above the atmosphere to flood the earth in Noah's day. It stood suspended there "by the word of God" so a scientific explanation would have no bearing on conjecture that it was impossible for it to be there. A water canopy surrounding the earth would have created "hot house" conditions on earth, evening out the climate and creating a temperate, humid environment conducive to lush growth. The fact that they have unearthed palm trees in Siberia lends credence to that situation IMO.

    Jesus said his return would see world conditions similar to those times....violence and immorality being the norm....and here we are again.

    And, according to Strongs Concordance, the word used for "circle" in Hebrew (chuwg) also means a sphere.
     
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  6. leov

    leov Well-Known Member
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    May be Asteroid belt - Wikipedia
     
  7. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    How would you determine this scenario as a fact in today's world?
     
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  8. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    The most obvious explanation is often the best. The writers of the Bible had no clue as to the facts of our world. They made up a story.
     
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  9. Terry Sampson

    Terry Sampson ζει

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    Party pooper.
     
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  10. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Don't worry, the cognitive dissonance is strong with those that need a myth.
     
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  11. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    It would explain dramatic climate change after the removal of the water canopy. Instant loss of the hot house ceiling.....meaning a dramatic drop in temperatures further away from the equator. The polar ice caps I believe hold a good deal of the water from the flood and hence the problems of melting ice at the poles creating all manner of dire predictions for flooding of coastal cities.

    I think it explains a lot actually.
     
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  12. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Oh my, still believing a bedtime story for children. At best it is a morality tale. We know that all of what you posted was nonsense.
     
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  13. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    Would explain is not established fact though.
     
  14. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    One note on the polar ice caps, they are hundreds of thousands of years old and that date can be verified by various different means. A silly magical flood that left no evidence is not the answer.
     
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  15. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    It's as established as scientific guessing IMO.
     
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  16. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    "And God said, let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under (or within) the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day." (Genesis 1:6-8 KJV)

    The term "firmament" according to the Creation account, is taken from the Hebrew: רָקִיעַ raqiya` raw-kee'-ah, which is defined by many scholars as an expanse, or the visible arch of the sky:—firmament, but a primitive root; “רָקַע raqa` raw-kah” means, to pound, hammer, to overlay (with thin sheets of metal):—beat, make broad, spread abroad (forth, over, out, into plates), stamp, stretch.

    The creation of the firmament is associated with the placement of some sort of structure, and in some modern Bibles many modern scholars translate the Hebrew word raqia as a "dome" or "vault". The Hebrew language appears to imply that the firmament is a firm, fixed structure (FIRMament, which can now be seen as the spherical cloud of comets (Icy vault) in which our solar system was created from the solar nebula cloud that was divided from the greater galactic nebula cloud.

    "And God said, “Let there be lights within the firmament or vault to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also."

    (Genesis 1:14-16 KJV) This verse says that the Sun, Moon, and Stars=planets of our solar system, are "within" the firmament. Therefore, the waters that are "above the firmament=dome/vault" must be above the Sun, Moon and Stars=planets of our solar system, revealing that the waters which are referred to in Psalms 148:4; "Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that [be] above the heavens," belong to the greater galactic nebula cloud which has become our Milky Way Galaxy.

    The Oort cloud, or the Opik-Oort cloud, which is named after Jan Oort, is a spherical cloud that surrounds our solar system, a cloud of predominantly icy objects such as comets that are comprised of mainly hydrogen, oxygen=water, ammonia and methane, and extends up to about a light year from the sun and defines the cosmographical boundary of our Solar System and the region of the suns gravitational dominance. Here is the Firmament, the great spherical vault within which is found the sun, moons and planets of our solar system, the dome of ice above us.

    Knowing that the planets of our solar system were already created before the sun came into existence when the hydrogen nuclei within the condensing solar cloud started fusing together to produce helium nuclei and a lot of energy thereby creating our sun, we must now ask the question, “Did life on earth begin to evolve before the creation of the sun?” As is recorded in the Bible. And can life exist without sunlight? Proof of this is to be found in the darkest depths of our oceans, where life has evolved over six miles beneath the surface where sunlight does not and cannot penetrate.
     
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  17. Heyo

    Heyo Active Member

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    [​IMG]
    (Edit: RF seems to despise .PNG images. Just see the article.)
    - from Firmament - Wikipedia

    The firmament, in the mind of the authors of Genesis, is a firm structure, a dome above the circle of the earth. The stars are fixed to the firmament, the planets, the sun and the moon move inside the firmament. It obviously has no relationship to reality.
     
    #17 Heyo, Nov 13, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2019
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  18. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    Continued from post #16.

    It was from the galactic nebular cloud, which was the residue of the heaver elements that were exploded off with the great super nova, which was the death of one of the gigantic earlier generation Stars that our Milky-Way galaxy would be formed in the second creative period=day, as the active universal forces brought about a division of the Solar nebular cloud [The Waters Below] from the Galactic nebular cloud [The Waters Above].

    The accretion of the galactic nebula disk, which was being attracted to the central Black Hole around which it had begun to orbit, transferred angular momentum outward as it transferred mass inward, it was this that caused our solar nebula to begin to rotate and condense inward, bringing a division of the solar cloud, from the galactic cloud, or the waters above from the waters below.

    Within the greater galactic nebular cloud, which was slowly beginning to revolve around the Black Hole that anchored it in space, a piece of the larger cloud complex started to collapse about five billion years ago. The cloud complex had already been "polluted" with dust grains from previous generations of stars, so it was possible to form the rocky terrestrial planets as gravity pulled the gas and dust together, forming a solar nebula. As the cloud=waters of the solar nebula collapsed, its slight rotation increased. This is because of the conservation of angular momentum.

    Just like a dancer who spins faster as she pulls in her arms, the cloud began to spin as it collapsed. Eventually, the cloud grew hotter and denser in the centre, with a disk of gas and dust surrounding it that was hot in the centre but cool at the edges. As the disk got thinner and thinner, particles began to stick together and form clumps. Some clumps got bigger, as particles and small clumps stuck to them, eventually forming planets or moons. Genesis 1: 6—9. As the heavenly cloud was gathered together in one place, dry land, or rather planets began to form. Near the centre of the condensing cloud, where planets like earth formed, only rocky material could stand the great heat. Icy matter settled in the outer regions of the disk along with rocky material, where the giant planets like Jupiter formed.

    As the cloud continued to fall in, the centre would get so hot that it would eventually become a star and with a strong stellar wind, would blow away most of the gas and dust from which the planets of the solar system had been formed.

    By studying meteorites, which are thought to be left over from this early phase of the solar system, scientists have found that the solar system is about 4.6 billion years old! As the solar nebula collapsed, the gas and dust heated up through collisions among the particles. The solar nebula heated up to around 3000 K so everything was in a gaseous form. The solar nebula's composition was similar to the present-day Sun's composition: about 93% hydrogen, 6% helium, and about 1% silicates and iron, and the density of the gas and dust increased toward the core where the proto-sun was: [PROTO SUN.]. The inner, denser regions collapsed more quickly than the outer regions.

    PROTO-HUMANS WERE NOT HUMANS AND THE PROTO-SUN, WAS NOT YET OUR SUN.

    Around Jupiter's distance from the proto-Sun the temperature was cool enough to freeze water (the so-called "snow line" or "frost line"). Further out from the proto-Sun, ammonia and methane were able to condense. There was a significant amount of water closer to the Proto-sun, but could not condense. When the solar nebula stopped collapsing it began cooling, though the core that would later form the Sun remained hot.

    This meant that the outer parts of the solar nebula cooled off more than the inner parts closer to the hot proto-Sun. Only metal and rock materials could condense (solidify) at the high temperatures close to the proto-Sun. Therefore, the metal and rock materials could condense in all the places where the planets were forming. Volatile materials (like water, methane and ammonia) could only condense in the outer parts of the solar nebula.

    Because the density of the solar nebula material increased inward, there was more water at Jupiter's distance than at the distances of Saturn, Uranus, or Neptune. The greater amount of water ice at Jupiter's distance from the proto-Sun helped it grow larger than the other planets. Although, there was more water closer to the proto-Sun than Jupiter, that water was too warm to condense. Material with the highest freezing temperatures condensed to form the chondrules that were then incorporated in lower freezing temperature material. Chondrules (from Ancient Greek chondros, meaning grain) are round grains found in chondrites. Chondrules form as molten or partially molten droplets in space before being accreted to their parent asteroids.

    Any material that later became part of a planet underwent further heating and processing when the planet differentiated so the heavy metals sunk to the planet's core and lighter metals floated up to nearer the surface.

    Because of its great compression, the core of the proto-Sun finally reached about 10 million Kelvin and after the planets of the solar system had been created, the hydrogen nuclei started fusing together to produce helium nuclei and a lot of energy. It was then that the proto-Sun "TURNED ON" and became our Sun, which produced the strong winds called T-Tauri winds named after the prototype star in the constellation Taurus.

    These winds swept out the rest of the nebula that was not already incorporated into the planets. With most of the cocoon gas blown away, the new star itself becomes visible to the outside for the first time. This whole process took just a few hundred million years and was finished by about 4.6 billion years ago. At the distance of about one light year from the earth, is the great icy Dome, that is the boundary of the firmament of our heavens, in which the sun, moon, and planets of our solar system were created.
     
  19. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    The verses you gave claim that the people of today are ignoring an established fact. From your language it sounds like you have an hypothesis at best.

    And i found an attempt to refute that hypothesis.

    The Vapor Canopy Hypothesis Holds No Water
     
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  20. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    But the spherical Oort Cloud, as revealed in post #16 DOES.
     
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