Genesis Account of Creation: Firmament

[tayla]

How do you reconcile Genesis with Geology?

I am thinking that the Genesis writer saw blue skies and figured there was water in the skies that was vaulted and would release rain from time to time.

Also in another book the circle of the Earth is mentioned. A circle is not a sphere so I am under the impression that the writer saw Earth as a dome with a circle of flat land.

Yes. Good points.

 

[Aupmanyav]

RigVeda does not claim anything, just asks.

"nāsadāsīn no sadāsīt tadānīṃ nāsīd rajo no vyomāparo yat l
kimāvarīvaḥ kuha kasya śarmannambhaḥ kimāsīd gahanaṃ ghabhīram ll"
(THEN was not non-existent nor existent: there was no realm of air, no sky beyond it;
What covered in, and where? and what gave shelter? Was water there, unfathomed depth of water?)
Rig Veda: Rig-Veda, Book 10: HYMN CXXIX. Creation. Verse 1

Men wove it all.

1. THE sacrifice drawn out with threads on every side, stretched by a hundred sacred ministers and one,
This do these Fathers weave who hitherward are come: they sit beside the warp and cry, Weave forth, weave back.
2 The Man extends it and the Man unbinds it: even to this vault of heaven hath he outspun, it.
These pegs are fastened to the seat of worship: they made the Sāma-hymns their weaving shuttles.
3 What were the rule, the order and the model? What were the wooden fender and the butter?
What were the hymn, the chant, the recitation, when to the God all Deities paid worship?
4 Closely was Gāyatrī conjoined with Agni, and closely Savitar combined with Usnih.
Brilliant with Ukthas, Soma joined Anustup: Bṛhaspati's voice by Brihati was aided.
5 Virāj adhered to Varuṇa and Mitra: here Triṣṭup day by day was Indra's portion.
Jagatī entered all the Gods together: so by this knowledge men were raised to Ṛṣis.
6 So by this knowledge men were raised to Ṛṣis, when ancient sacrifice sprang up, our Fathers.
With the mind's eye I think that I behold them who first performed this sacrificial worship.
7 They who were versed in ritual and meter, in hymns and rules, were the Seven Godlike Ṛṣis.
Viewing the path of those of old, the sages have taken up the reins like chariot-drivers.
Rig Veda: Rig-Veda, Book 10: HYMN CXXX. Creation.

The underlined are all meters of poetry in Sanskrit.

Theyyam Dance, Kerala, India.

 

[SA Huguenot]

The most obvious explanation is often the best. The writers of the Bible had no clue as to the facts of our world. They made up a story.

You just dont stop with this rethoric, dont you?
All that Osgard asked was where was this firmament as described in Genesis.
He didnt aske to be made a fool or to be laughed at.
Not nice of you!

 

[Subduction Zone]

You just dont stop with this rethoric, dont you?
All that Osgard asked was where was this firmament as described in Genesis.
He didnt aske to be made a fool or to be laughed at.
Not nice of you!

Where did I make a fool of him? Where was I laughing st him? Perhaps he thinks the same thing.

Genesis most likely was an attempt to explain the universe. Just as Greek, Egyptian, Native American, and other ancient cultures did. The proper term for all of those explanations is "myth".

 

[SA Huguenot]

The Firmament that separates the waters above the Earth and below the Earth.

Where exactly is the Firmament located?

There is no waters above the Earth.

Would the Firmament be wetlands at ocean depths?

How do you reconcile Genesis with Geology?

I am thinking that the Genesis writer saw blue skies and figured there was water in the skies that was vaulted and would release rain from time to time.

Also Genesis talks of a vast expanse! Where might that be?

Also in another book the circle of the Earth is mentioned. A circle is not a sphere so I am under the impression that the writer saw Earth as a dome with a circle of flat land.

Where exactly is the Firmament located?
Allow me to give you the following.
The Bible say the Earth was a collection of gas, liquid and solids, but it was without any recognizable shape.
"Without Form"
If you look at the trd day, you will see the earth changed in appearance.
As the solids and liquids seperated, land and sea developed.
Therefore the Earth was a huge mixture of mud on the morning of the 3rd day.
it was the intermediate between an Earth that was without shape on the 1st day that changed into a sphere turning on its axis, resulting in Day and Night.
Therefore, on the second day, the earth was a "Mud Ball", with an atmosphere due to the gasses that escaped from this collection of matter.
This atmosphere was very moist, and the Bible actually say that it did not rain at that time before the flood, because a mist rose from the ground that wetted the land.
Therefore, the "Firmament" was the surface of this "Mud Ball", that changed from this big blob in space.
lateron in Genesis we learn about a second firmament where the Sun, Moon and Stars shined on, this is the outter limits of the atmosphere.

There is no waters above the Earth.
True, But the earth changed a lot since it was created.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Where exactly is the Firmament located?
Allow me to give you the following.
The Bible say the Earth was a collection of gas, liquid and solids, but it was without any recognizable shape.
"Without Form"
If you look at the trd day, you will see the earth changed in appearance.
As the solids and liquids seperated, land and sea developed.
Therefore the Earth was a huge mixture of mud on the morning of the 3rd day.
it was the intermediate between an Earth that was without shape on the 1st day that changed into a sphere turning on its axis, resulting in Day and Night.
Therefore, on the second day, the earth was a "Mud Ball", with an atmosphere due to the gasses that escaped from this collection of matter.
This atmosphere was very moist, and the Bible actually say that it did not rain at that time before the flood, because a mist rose from the ground that wetted the land.
Therefore, the "Firmament" was the surface of this "Mud Ball", that changed from this big blob in space.
lateron in Genesis we learn about a second firmament where the Sun, Moon and Stars shined on, this is the outter limits of the atmosphere.

There is no waters above the Earth.
True, But the earth changed a lot since it was created.

View attachment 34277

Sorry, but that was not the "Earth" at that time. When without shape at best it was the cloud that became our Sun. At that point in time the planets would have been a very minor consideration. And the sciences are not like your Bible. You don't get to pick and choose. If you accept the natural formation of our Solar System how can you reject the natural formation of life?

 

[SA Huguenot]

There is no waters above the Earth.

Would the Firmament be wetlands at ocean depths?
Also Genesis talks of a vast expanse! Where might that be?
How do you reconcile Genesis with Geology?

True, but keep in mind that when the Earth changed from a collection of Liquid, Gas and sollids, it would have been much more smoother and flatter, with shallow seas, and mountains not reaching so high.
A lot of liquid would be caught up in the interiour of the Earth, and the slightest gravitational change would pull the surface of the earth into itself.
This would squash the water out onto the shallow earth and ocean, and will also pull all this captured moisture out from the atmosphere onto the earth.
The result would be a catastrophic flooding of the earth.
Now one can logically deduct that as the Earth's crust collapsed, sending huge volumes of water to the surface, the surface of the Earth rose, and at other places subdued, leaving mountains and sea trenches we see today.
All these descriptions is observable when you look at the mountains around us today.
I stay in the magalies mountains in South Africa, and it has the appearance of a huge flat slab of granite, 200 Km long, with one side subdued into valleys, and the other side uplifted as a mountain range.

All these claims I make is substantiated with the discoveries of Zircon crystals and Silver ions proving the Earth had a wet beginning.

 

[SA Huguenot]

Also in another book the circle of the Earth is mentioned. A circle is not a sphere so I am under the impression that the writer saw Earth as a dome with a circle of flat land.

I also found the following.
Proverbs 8:27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:

I call this a 3 dimentional circle, which is a sphere.
But that is me, the atheists wount accept it as such.
they want the Bible to describe a flat earth which it does not.

 

[Thief]

The Firmament that separates the waters above the Earth and below the Earth.

Where exactly is the Firmament located?

There is no waters above the Earth.

Would the Firmament be wetlands at ocean depths?

How do you reconcile Genesis with Geology?

I am thinking that the Genesis writer saw blue skies and figured there was water in the skies that was vaulted and would release rain from time to time.

Also Genesis talks of a vast expanse! Where might that be?

Also in another book the circle of the Earth is mentioned. A circle is not a sphere so I am under the impression that the writer saw Earth as a dome with a circle of flat land.

more like a line of division
and in the scheme of things having enormous mass and area.....

gravity

you might consider.....God was dictating to a man....Moses
and how to say to him.....hydrogen

closest item Moses can understand……….water

 

[Terry Sampson]

Gleason world map is perfectly good.

For finding your way from one point in the Antarctic circle to another point in the same circle 180 degrees from the first, ... yeah.

For playing with Osgart's OP, Orlando Ferguson's seemed to me the better choice, since it comes with angels and bible verses.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

The proper term for all of those explanations is "myth".

To quote a rabbi leading a class I took many years ago: "It is, not myth, but Myth."

 

[exchemist]

Many seem to think that it is much more than a work of literature. Perhaps a better term should be found, and I may have reacted a bit to his false accusation that he was not able to support. Telling falsehoods about others is rather irritating to me.

They do. It is a work of literature at least, but obviously that and more to Christians, Jews and even Muslims.

 

[exchemist]

Where did I make a fool of him? Where was I laughing st him? Perhaps he thinks the same thing.

Genesis most likely was an attempt to explain the universe. Just as Greek, Egyptian, Native American, and other ancient cultures did. The proper term for all of those explanations is "myth".

Actually I do not think this was its prime purpose. This I think is where some people, especially the creationists, go astray. As I said in post 24, it seems to me it is about:
- God as Creator,
- the relationship between God and his creation and,
- the creation of Man and the relationship between God and Man.

These things are what was important to set out at the beginning of the bible, as foundations for the fables and the theology that follow. The relationship stuff is where the real action comes from, not the physical business of putting up the Christmas tree and the order of hanging the lights.

 

[Subduction Zone]

View attachment 34283 View attachment 34284 View attachment 34285 View attachment 34286 View attachment 34287

True, but keep in mind that when the Earth changed from a collection of Liquid, Gas and sollids, it would have been much more smoother and flatter, with shallow seas, and mountains not reaching so high.
A lot of liquid would be caught up in the interiour of the Earth, and the slightest gravitational change would pull the surface of the earth into itself.
This would squash the water out onto the shallow earth and ocean, and will also pull all this captured moisture out from the atmosphere onto the earth.
The result would be a catastrophic flooding of the earth.
Now one can logically deduct that as the Earth's crust collapsed, sending huge volumes of water to the surface, the surface of the Earth rose, and at other places subdued, leaving mountains and sea trenches we see today.
All these descriptions is observable when you look at the mountains around us today.
I stay in the magalies mountains in South Africa, and it has the appearance of a huge flat slab of granite, 200 Km long, with one side subdued into valleys, and the other side uplifted as a mountain range.

All these claims I make is substantiated with the discoveries of Zircon crystals and Silver ions proving the Earth had a wet beginning.

Please, please, you are making me laugh. We need to get back to your science lessons. There was no flood. And no, zircon crystals show that there was water on the surface earlier than thought. It does not prove that it was "wet". That was roughly 4 billion years ago. More than 4 billion years before man cam along. How can you have a flood with no people?

 

[Subduction Zone]

I also found the following.
Proverbs 8:27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:

I call this a 3 dimentional circle, which is a sphere.
But that is me, the atheists wount accept it as such.
they want the Bible to describe a flat earth which it does not.

Sorry, but it says "circle", And the Hebrew word implies a two dimensional circle even more so. Do you know what the word "compass" means in that verse?

 

[Subduction Zone]

To quote a rabbi leading a class I took many years ago: "It is, not myth, but Myth."

Yes, religiously the book still works as a series of morality tales. If one takes it literally there are all sorts of problems.

 

[sealchan]

The Firmament that separates the waters above the Earth and below the Earth.

Where exactly is the Firmament located?

There is no waters above the Earth.

Would the Firmament be wetlands at ocean depths?

How do you reconcile Genesis with Geology?

I am thinking that the Genesis writer saw blue skies and figured there was water in the skies that was vaulted and would release rain from time to time.

Also Genesis talks of a vast expanse! Where might that be?

Also in another book the circle of the Earth is mentioned. A circle is not a sphere so I am under the impression that the writer saw Earth as a dome with a circle of flat land.

In my reading I understood basically a waters sandwich with the blue sky, as you say, the top slice and the oceans the bottom slice...maybe a kind of pocket sandwich where the two slices meet at the circumference.

 

[sealchan]

Don't worry, the cognitive dissonance is strong with those that need a myth.

I've moved on to Star Trek, warp drive and Wormhole aliens.

 

[Fool]

The Firmament that separates the waters above the Earth and below the Earth.

Where exactly is the Firmament located?

There is no waters above the Earth.

Would the Firmament be wetlands at ocean depths?

How do you reconcile Genesis with Geology?

I am thinking that the Genesis writer saw blue skies and figured there was water in the skies that was vaulted and would release rain from time to time.

Also Genesis talks of a vast expanse! Where might that be?

Also in another book the circle of the Earth is mentioned. A circle is not a sphere so I am under the impression that the writer saw Earth as a dome with a circle of flat land.

raqiya`, or firmament, comes from the root word raqa'; which can mean a spreading out (of clouds).


i'm wondering if this is an inference to interstellar clouds, or some other space phenomena

space then could literally be understood as the waters.

 

[Native]

The Bible say the Earth was a collection of gas, liquid and solids, but it was without any recognizable shape.
"Without Form"

The first mention of "earth" in the Genesis doesn´t mean the Earth, but cosmic soil/mud/solid matter which fits your other description.

The result would be a catastrophic flooding of the earth.

Your reference to a Noah´s Flood is IMO false. The Milky Way contours is imagined as a "heavenly river" in ancient myths and this river is running all OVER and AROUND the Earth in the Sky and NOT ON the Earth.
This false Noah Flood conception derives from scholars who lack both the mythical and astronomical insight, hence they take the celestial Milky Way river literally to once have run over the Earth.