Gas or Electric Vehicles?

[leov]

Inspired by another thread (as usual) and in the interest of not derailing that thread, I will ask here.

When you decide electric vehicles are the vehicle of choice, do you consider where electric comes from?

Over 60% of electricity come from fossil fuels, such as coal, petroleum, and natural gas.
What is U.S. electricity generation by energy source? - FAQ - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)

And yes, electric vehicles have reduced emissions, but many don't consider the emissions produced when extracting fossil fuels or the burning of coal.

Taking electric generation and the disposal of electric vehicle batteries (yes, I'm aware that Tesla recycles, but I'm not convinced other manufacturers do), are electric vehicles really the better option?

A few years from now we may face a problem of car battery disposal, I' lloyd wait with my answer until positive solution will be found .

 

[exchemist]

There'd be some burned & unburned oil in it though.
Still, not enuf to worry about IMO.

Hydrogen is a tricky fuel. I've used it to run very early
engines designed to run on illuminating gas (burning methane,
CO, & hydrogen). It's hard to get much energy density with it
(high pressure gas), & there are transmission losses (difusing
right thru solid steel). Will it ever be practical? I doubt it.

Shell is piloting it fairly seriously in a number of countries, so they must think the technical challenges are not insuperable: Shell launches its first hydrogen refuelling station in the UK

I would agree informed opinion today seems to doubt that it will be preferred to electricity and batteries, but as these things play out the two technologies may conceivably swap places. For example people are rightly concerned about the environmental issue with battery materials and the socio-political issues of extracting some of the metals. It could be another VHS vs. Betamax, I suppose.

 

[ChristineM]

There'd be some burned & unburned oil in it though.
Still, not enuf to worry about IMO.

Hydrogen is a tricky fuel. I've used it to run very early
engines designed to run on illuminating gas (burning methane,
CO, & hydrogen). It's hard to get much energy density with it
(high pressure gas), & there are transmission losses (difusing
right thru solid steel). Will it ever be practical? I doubt it.

Methinks there is lots of other stuff in it to, plastic, fecies (sewage plants have discharged untreated sewage into the sea for years), various items of industrial waste, nuclear waste.

Methinks hydrogen fuel cells are far removed from antique, cast iron reciprocating engines

 

[Wandering Monk]

There'd be some burned & unburned oil in it though.
Still, not enuf to worry about IMO.

Hydrogen is a tricky fuel. I've used it to run very early
engines designed to run on illuminating gas (burning methane,
CO, & hydrogen). It's hard to get much energy density with it
(high pressure gas), & there are transmission losses (difusing
right thru solid steel). Will it ever be practical? I doubt it.

We used 316 stainless in our ultra-high vacuum systems on the laser gyro production stations. Hydrogen easily penetrated the metal and had to be accounted for in our processes.

 

[exchemist]

Methinks there is lots of other stuff in it to, plastic, fecies (sewage plants have discharged untreated sewage into the sea for years), various items of industrial waste, nuclear waste.

Methinks hydrogen fuel cells are far removed from antique, cast iron reciprocating engines

Good point. It will eventually probably be oxidised in fuel cells rather than burnt in an IC engine. You get a lot better efficiency if you avoid heat engines (Carnot Cycle etc).

 

[Twilight Hue]

Inspired by another thread (as usual) and in the interest of not derailing that thread, I will ask here.

When you decide electric vehicles are the vehicle of choice, do you consider where electric comes from?

Over 60% of electricity come from fossil fuels, such as coal, petroleum, and natural gas.
What is U.S. electricity generation by energy source? - FAQ - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)

And yes, electric vehicles have reduced emissions, but many don't consider the emissions produced when extracting fossil fuels or the burning of coal.

Taking electric generation and the disposal of electric vehicle batteries (yes, I'm aware that Tesla recycles, but I'm not convinced other manufacturers do), are electric vehicles really the better option?

No. Everything has emissions. You're just trading one off for another.

Electrical motors produce ozone.

Health Effects of Ozone Pollution | US EPA

Not only that, there's a tremendous amount of energy that needs to be put into electrical motors to begin with.

There's no such thing as a free ride.

You're just going to 'solve' one problem and have the beginnings of another.

 

[Revoltingest]

We used 316 stainless in our ultra-high vacuum systems on the laser gyro production stations. Hydrogen easily penetrated the metal and had to be accounted for in our processes.

It also makes the metal more brittle.
At Black & Decker, we baked the hydrogen out of saw blades.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

A few years from now we may face a problem of car battery disposal, I' lloyd wait with my answer until positive solution will be found .

Disposal of materials from gas-powered cars already creates significant problems. How does this factor into your thinking?

 

[Revoltingest]

Methinks there is lots of other stuff in it to, plastic, fecies (sewage plants have discharged untreated sewage into the sea for years), various items of industrial waste, nuclear waste.

Methinks hydrogen fuel cells are far removed from antique, cast iron reciprocating engines

Aye, fuel cells would beat IC engines when using hydrogen.
Still, it's more fun to run an open flame ignition engine on it.

 

[exchemist]

No. Everything has emissions. You're just trading one off for another.

Electrical motors produce ozone.

Health Effects of Ozone Pollution | US EPA

Not only that, there's a tremendous amount of energy that needs to be put into electrical motors to begin with.

There's no such thing as a free ride.

You're just going to 'solve' one problem and have the beginnings of another.

Electric motors only produce ozone if they are primitive types with a commutator. A modern brushless induction motor doesn't produce any ozone.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I am late to the thread, but I have to say that the answer is definitely electric. We are in the very very early years of modern electric vehicles and there will be massive improvements ecologically of both the vehicles themselves and their energy source. First electricity is becoming greener and greener. Right now most green energy is competitive with fossil fuels and even without considering the negative side effects of fossil fuels their days are numbered. Not just because they screw up the environment, but also because they will continue to get rarer and more difficult to harvest. Yes, we have more than we thought do to improved methods of drilling extracting etc.. But even with that there is no doubt that fracking works, but is more expensive than older methods. And there will be other new methods developed. but we are far past the day when one could go "shootin' for some food" and hit oil.

The next big breakthrough in electric cars is all but guaranteed to be in batteries. And one very promising new tech is that of solid state batteries. This will affect all battery technology. No more exploding cell phones:

Solid state battery breakthrough could double the density of lithium-ion cells

Solid state batteries use either a ceramic or even a glass rather than a liquid for ion transport. Don't ask me how. But they are much safer, higher energy storage, and less weight all may be some of the benefits.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No. Everything has emissions. You're just trading one off for another.

Electrical motors produce ozone.

Health Effects of Ozone Pollution | US EPA

A bit. And the more in tune the electric motor, the less it produces ozone.

BTW: do you avoid other electric motors for this reason? "Sorry, honey - we're going to have to go without a dryer and a dishwasher. We'll just have to hang our clothes on the line and wash our dishes by hand. Can't be creating more ozone."

Not only that, there's a tremendous amount of energy that needs to be put into electrical motors to begin with.

... as for gas-powered engines. Which one takes more energy to produce?

There's no such thing as a free ride.

You're just going to 'solve' one problem and have the beginnings of another.

But not necessarily a problem of equal severity. It's useless to talk about "problems" without considering their relative magnitude.

 

[Subduction Zone]

It also makes the metal more brittle.
At Black & Decker, we baked the hydrogen out of saw blades.

That reminds me of the scams that arose when gas jumped to over $4.00 a gallon years ago. Some genius thought that making hydrogen from on board electrolysis would be "free fuel". Not only would it actually reduce efficiency, introducing gaseous hydrogen to they system increased the odds of hydrogen embrittlement.

 

[Wandering Monk]

Cost of production per gallon for the most energy dense fuel that has the least impact on the environment.

What fuel wins this, taking into account things like mining and drilling, hazardous waste disposal and so on?

 

[Revoltingest]

That reminds me of the scams that arose when gas jumped to over $4.00 a gallon years ago. Some genius thought that making hydrogen from on board electrolysis would be "free fuel". Not only would it actually reduce efficiency, introducing gaseous hydrogen to they system increased the odds of hydrogen embrittlement.

I remember that.
So many things are possible if one dispenses with physics.

I remember a device which installed in the fuel line.
It aligned the polar gasoline molecules so that they burned with more energy.

Picture me face palming now.

 

[Shad]

Inspired by another thread (as usual) and in the interest of not derailing that thread, I will ask here.

When you decide electric vehicles are the vehicle of choice, do you consider where electric comes from?

Over 60% of electricity come from fossil fuels, such as coal, petroleum, and natural gas.
What is U.S. electricity generation by energy source? - FAQ - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)

And yes, electric vehicles have reduced emissions, but many don't consider the emissions produced when extracting fossil fuels or the burning of coal.

Taking electric generation and the disposal of electric vehicle batteries (yes, I'm aware that Tesla recycles, but I'm not convinced other manufacturers do), are electric vehicles really the better option?

I am in Canada which 59% hydroelectric, nuclear is 15%, fossil fuels are 19% (9% is coal the rest is oil and natural gas) and non hydro renewable is 7%. Fossil fuel and nuclear use is isolated to specific provinces. I am in BC which has no coal power sources but does have natural gas. There are no nuclear power plants here. The majority is hydroelectric. So for me the impact is minimum thus electric is a good option.

The issue here is where the vehicles are made and how, including parts. If parts or the vehicle is imported from the USA or Mexico manufacturing is probably using dirty energy. The trade deals between the US, Mexico and Canada has made it impossible to stop importing vehicles and/or parts.

 

[ChristineM]

Aye, fuel cells would beat IC engines when using hydrogen.
Still, it's more fun to run an open flame ignition engine on it.

We did an experiment at school, breaking down water using electrolysis.

Then some of us (wasn't me honest officer) stoppered the hydrogen test tube with cotton wadding and heated it.

The rather loud bang sent the wadding across the room at a great rate of knots and the head teacher running from her office to see what was happening.

Writing
I must not performed unsupervised experiments.in the school laboratory
100 times is no fun for a dyslexic ;-)

 

[Twilight Hue]

I am late to the thread, but I have to say that the answer is definitely electric. We are in the very very early years of modern electric vehicles and there will be massive improvements ecologically of both the vehicles themselves and their energy source. First electricity is becoming greener and greener. Right now most green energy is competitive with fossil fuels and even without considering the negative side effects of fossil fuels their days are numbered. Not just because they screw up the environment, but also because they will continue to get rarer and more difficult to harvest. Yes, we have more than we thought do to improved methods of drilling extracting etc.. But even with that there is no doubt that fracking works, but is more expensive than older methods. And there will be other new methods developed. but we are far past the day when one could go "shootin' for some food" and hit oil.

The next big breakthrough in electric cars is all but guaranteed to be in batteries. And one very promising new tech is that of solid state batteries. This will affect all battery technology. No more exploding cell phones:

Solid state battery breakthrough could double the density of lithium-ion cells

Solid state batteries use either a ceramic or even a glass rather than a liquid for ion transport. Don't ask me how. But they are much safer, higher energy storage, and less weight all may be some of the benefits.

Did you ever have a lithium ion battery explode in your phone?

Now put a nice big one in your car.

BOOM!!!

 

[Wandering Monk]

Heard they are working on perfecting graphene batteries. I think the batteries are biodegradable.

 

[Revoltingest]

We did an experiment at school, breaking down water using electrolysis.

Then some of us (wasn't me honest officer) stoppered the hydrogen test tube with cotton wadding and heated it.

The rather loud bang sent the wadding across the room at a great rate of knots and the head teacher running from her office to see what was happening.

Writing
I must not performed unsupervised experiments.in the school laboratory
100 times is no fun for a dyslexic ;-)

It's easily ignited cuz it has a wide flammability range.
That's useful in running fragile old engines.
Nowadays we add a little propane to slow down the speed of the
flame front, thereby reducing shock loading, which is a problem
even though leaned out hydrogen produces little power.