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Finding excuses to hate Muslims?

Theweirdtophat

Well-Known Member
There are literally hundreds of millions of good Muslims. But those are not the ones causing worry.

Fanatics are the problem, not Muslims themselves. There have been religious and non religious terrorists and people act as if them being Muslim has something to do with it. If they weren't Muslim, they wouldn't be terrorists, right? Has it occurred to others that maybe they are just lunatics and fanatics and that their race and religion didn't make them that way., They used Islam and twisted it to suit their agenda. That does not make Islam bad or Muslims bad. If people want to have this mentality, you may as well just say all religious people are bad everywhere because you will see fanatics and lunatics is just about every religious group. Even Buddhism has some aggressive people there, even the Sikhs too. There have been Sikh, Jewish, Christian terrorists, but I guess only Muslim terrorists exist right?

Almost every religious group is going to have some bad people in there. There's only a small amount of religions that are very bad or just flat out evil though but a lot of them are small cults most people have never even heard of.

Islam is not the danger and those people don't even realize they are being manipulated into despising Muslims, when in fact they should be focusing on the real enemy though.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Fanatics are the problem, not Muslims themselves.

Fanatics are only a problem because they are enabled by largely silent multitudes of moderates and sort-of-moderates, though.

Every community has its wackos. Not every community gives them enough ear and prestige to make them an actual danger.


There have been religious and non religious terrorists and people act as if them being Muslim has something to do with it.

Guess what? It does have something to do with it.


If they weren't Muslim, they wouldn't be terrorists, right?

That is a bit speculative, as par of course for what-if scenarios.

What changes are you proposing so that those specific people would somehow not be Muslims? For that matter, which people are we talking about here?


Has it occurred to others that maybe they are just lunatics and fanatics and that their race and religion didn't make them that way.

Of course it did. We have a duty not to ignore the evidence and the facts, though. While obviously not determinant, Muslim beliefs do play a role. It is immature and irresponsible to pretend otherwise.


They used Islam and twisted it to suit their agenda.

As did their critics. As does everyone with whatever beliefs they inherited from their cultures, unless they decide to convert to something else.

That usually does not result in murderous fanaticism, though.

Honestly, I have to wonder whether you are consciously avoiding acknowledging the correlation between Islamic teachings and dangerous fanaticism. You are doing a pretty good job at pretending to be utterly unaware of it.


That does not make Islam bad or Muslims bad.

I would say that a doctrine that fails to teach its adherents to be respectful of diversity of belief is by some meaningful definitions of "bad" indeed bad.


If people want to have this mentality, you may as well just say all religious people are bad everywhere because you will see fanatics and lunatics is just about every religious group.

Are you asking me to ignore known trends and correlations without giving me a reason to?


Even Buddhism has some aggressive people there, even the Sikhs too. There have been Sikh, Jewish, Christian terrorists, but I guess only Muslim terrorists exist right?

Obviously not. And no one makes such a claim. So why are you acting as if anyone did?


Almost every religious group is going to have some bad people in there. There's only a small amount of religions that are very bad or just flat out evil though but a lot of them are small cults most people have never even heard of.

Sort of true, but besides the point.


Islam is not the danger
That is arguable at best.

and those people don't even realize they are being manipulated into despising Muslims, when in fact they should be focusing on the real enemy though.

Which would be...?
 

Theweirdtophat

Well-Known Member
Fanatics are only a problem because they are enabled by largely silent multitudes of moderates and sort-of-moderates, though.

Every community has its wackos. Not every community gives them enough ear and prestige to make them an actual danger.




Guess what? It does have something to do with it.




That is a bit speculative, as par of course for what-if scenarios.

What changes are you proposing so that those specific people would somehow not be Muslims? For that matter, which people are we talking about here?




Of course it did. We have a duty not to ignore the evidence and the facts, though. While obviously not determinant, Muslim beliefs do play a role. It is immature and irresponsible to pretend otherwise.




As did their critics. As does everyone with whatever beliefs they inherited from their cultures, unless they decide to convert to something else.

That usually does not result in murderous fanaticism, though.

Honestly, I have to wonder whether you are consciously avoiding acknowledging the correlation between Islamic teachings and dangerous fanaticism. You are doing a pretty good job at pretending to be utterly unaware of it.




I would say that a doctrine that fails to teach its adherents to be respectful of diversity of belief is by some meaningful definitions of "bad" indeed bad.




Are you asking me to ignore known trends and correlations without giving me a reason to?




Obviously not. And no one makes such a claim. So why are you acting as if anyone did?




Sort of true, but besides the point.



That is arguable at best.



Which would be...?

I don't get it. You say there are hundreds of millions of Muslims that are good and you say that it is arguable at best to say that Islam is the danger, when it clearly isn't. You have lunatics who happen to be Muslim. Take way Islam and what do you have? You still have a lunatic anyway. Doesn't matter what faith you give them. A lunatic is still a lunatic, no matter what faith they claim to represent.

And if it was so obvious, why do people act like it. No, no one says only Muslims are terrorists, but they ACT like it. They don't have to say "Only Muslims are terrorists" but they can still act like it. Just like when a person acts like they are the smartest person alive, no one is going to say "I'm the smartest person alive." But they ACT like it.

You may like to think I'm oblivious to this but I'm not no matter how much you like to think I am. I know there are dangerous fanatic Muslim teachings taught by clerics, who are already corrupt right down to the core. These are people who are scumbags anyway. They just use Islam to justify their agenda, that does not mean they represent all of Islam. You have any idea how many people honestly believe these terrorists and corrupt clerics are supposed to represent True Islam? What is true Islam anyway? Islam is supposed to be violent? Who decided that and who gave them the right?

All of this hatred against Islam and Muslims is not only beyond asinine but wasteful energy. They waste so much time fighting against Muslims when they should have focused on their efforts on the people who manipulated them in the first place. If people honestly think Islam and Muslims is the worst, they haven't a clue. They have no absolutely no idea who the real enemy is. It isn't Muslims, I can tell you that. Some Muslims are already on your side without even knowing it.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I don't get it. You say there are hundreds of millions of Muslims that are good and you say that it is arguable at best to say that Islam is the danger, when it clearly isn't.
Convince me. I happen to think that Islam is very much a danger, even to itself. Why are you so sure it is not?

You have lunatics who happen to be Muslim. Take way Islam and what do you have?
Hopefully, people who are not taught from birth to live in mutual expectation of worship of scripture and a strong yet ill-defined, ill-understood notions of deity.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
I am not sure that many Westerners hate Muslims. However we both hate and fear what has been done in the name of Islam by extremists.
This fear has spread to far more than those who have carried out these despicable acts.
Fear is contagious, as is hatred.
Non believers know that Muslims are taught in the Quran to despise us.
We know this is believed by far more than the comparatively few terrorists.
We know that Muslim teachers and leaders have arisen who want Islam to dominate the world and eliminate all opposition from other faiths.
They teach that those who are not of their faith are enemies of God.

These beliefs are not something that can be defeated by counter argument or reason. It is written in black and white and is essential to their belief and eventual salvation.

Hatred of Muslims is perhaps an inevitable outcome, caused at the point of friction between the opposing cultures and faiths.
I have no Idea at all as to how it can me moderated. I do know neither fighting nor appeasement work. Containment in their own countries has had some success in the past. But Islam is now inevitably and firmly mixed in with other cultures in almost every country, it is far beyond the possibility of containment.

Perhaps the only hope is in education... and the gradual realisation of the unreasonableness of their beliefs.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
And I guess Muslims don't say anything bad about terrorists...except that they do and some are actually fighting against them overseas but I guess that doesn't count right? I mean, I feel like I entered into a topsy turvey dimension here. What happened here? Do people not see what's in front of them or realize there are good Muslims as well as bad?
That is a pretty important point to make. The majority of the victims of Muslim violence are Muslims. They are fighting against each other moreso than they are fighting against the rest of the world. Even Bin Laden, before his anti-Western/anti-American kick, was preaching hatred and hostility towards other Muslims whom he felt were hijacking Islam.
 

MARCELLO

Transitioning from male to female
They are not blonde. None of them have reddish beards.
They cannot write in classical greek or latin.
That's why I hate muslims. (hint : irony)
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
They are not blonde. None of them have reddish beards.
They cannot write in classical greek or latin.
That's why I hate muslims. (hint : irony)

I don't see the irony...
none of those things apply to me either....
I am sure that there are blond, bearded, classical scholars....who are also Muslims.
After all, we all know it is nothing to do with race or education.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Some rough definitions and estimates that might help:

- jihadis and terrorists: will use violence: .001 % (or smaller)
- Islamists: those who support Sharia: 300-500 million
- moderates: focus only on the religious aspect of the ideology: 400-800 million
- casual Muslims: not really religious: 400-800 million

To me it's the Islamists we need to understand, be honest about, and watch closely. Let's imagine that ISIS detonated a dirty bomb in a major western city, killing 30,000. If the west made a BIG military response in the ME, it's likely that most of the Islamists would rally around ISIS.
 
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LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Fair enough, @icehorse - but I don't think it is really very advisable to count on people not really meaning to believe in what they profess to believe.
 

Theweirdtophat

Well-Known Member
Convince me. I happen to think that Islam is very much a danger, even to itself. Why are you so sure it is not?


Hopefully, people who are not taught from birth to live in mutual expectation of worship of scripture and a strong yet ill-defined, ill-understood notions of deity.

It isn't a danger. It CAN be a danger, but then a lot of ideologies can be a danger. If it really was, what could you do? Stop people from practicing it? It's an idea and ideas can't be destroyed.

What I also find strange is the naysayers actually expect the Muslims to do something about it, as if they aren't doing anything, which they are, but I guess they expect every Muslim in the world to drop what they are doing, leave their families and fight the terrorists. And I didn't see anyone demand the Christians do anything about the Lord's Resistance Army in Uganda which is a christian terrorist group, yet they Muslims are expected to fight every terrorist on the planet?
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
It isn't a danger.

It is indeed a danger.

It CAN be a danger, but then a lot of ideologies can be a danger. If it really was, what could you do? Stop people from practicing it? It's an idea and ideas can't be destroyed.

There is a whole lot that can be done about dangerous ideas. Refusing to spread them without proper warning. Emphasizing the logical consequences of their goals. Exposing them to ridicule. Protesting against them and denouncing them outright.


What I also find strange is the naysayers actually expect the Muslims to do something about it, as if they aren't doing anything, which they are,
I find the reaction to the excesses of Islam both timid and confused for the most part. To the point that it worries me a bit more in and of itself.

Focusing on the fact that the Qur'an can be interpreted in less destructive ways while failing to consider the much more significant fact that a good believer should learn from early on not to allow his or her beliefs to be misguided.

In that sense, Islam is not only dangerous, but also worryingly fragile in some of the worst conceivable ways. It relies way too much on scripture as opposed to wisdom and personal responsibility. Despite the heroic efforts of many, I fear it may be doomed to be forever flawed to the point of disfunctionality.

but I guess they expect every Muslim in the world to drop what they are doing, leave their families and fight the terrorists.
Hardly. Refusing to feed the expectations that enable those, however, would be very welcome indeed - but alas, it is not at all likely to happen. I'm not sure Islam as a religion can even survive such an effort.


And I didn't see anyone demand the Christians do anything about the Lord's Resistance Army in Uganda which is a christian terrorist group, yet they Muslims are expected to fight every terrorist on the planet?

I have no problem denouncing Christian terrorism. It just turns out that there isn't quite so much of it these days.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
It isn't a danger. It CAN be a danger, but then a lot of ideologies can be a danger. If it really was, what could you do? Stop people from practicing it? It's an idea and ideas can't be destroyed.

What I also find strange is the naysayers actually expect the Muslims to do something about it, as if they aren't doing anything, which they are, but I guess they expect every Muslim in the world to drop what they are doing, leave their families and fight the terrorists. And I didn't see anyone demand the Christians do anything about the Lord's Resistance Army in Uganda which is a christian terrorist group, yet they Muslims are expected to fight every terrorist on the planet?

I think that focusing on terrorism is really a red herring, a distraction. It's the 300-500 million Islamists that should be where we focus our concern.
 

RedDragon94

Love everyone, meditate often
So apply the statement you made about anything that requires sacrifice is dangerous to your own life.

Whether or not something is dangerous is not the reason why you should or should try to do something. We shouldn't always play it safe because if we do that always we won't have a story. This is why we need to step out in faith and trust God with our lives even if they are baby steps.
 
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