Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Baha’u’llah wrote that there are two kinds of fate and predestination, irrevocable and impending. Both are to be obeyed and accepted. The irrevocable fate is fixed and settled; even though God is able to alter or repeal it God never does because of the harm that would result from such a change will be greater than if the decree had remained unaltered. As such, we are told that we should all willingly acquiesce to the irrevocable fate and confidently abide by it. The fate that is impending, however, is such that prayer and entreaty can succeed in averting it.
“Know thou, O fruit of My Tree, that the decrees of the Sovereign Ordainer, as related to fate and predestination, are of two kinds. Both are to be obeyed and accepted. The one is irrevocable, the other is, as termed by men, impending. To the former all must unreservedly submit, inasmuch as it is fixed and settled. God, however, is able to alter or repeal it. As the harm that must result from such a change will be greater than if the decree had remained unaltered, all, therefore, should willingly acquiesce in what God hath willed and confidently abide by the same.
The decree that is impending, however, is such that prayer and entreaty can succeed in averting it.
God grant that thou who art the fruit of My Tree, and they that are associated with thee, may be shielded from its evil consequences.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 133
Note that it says it “can succeed” not that it “will succeed.” What that amounts to is that we are completely at the mercy of God...
How does fate and predestination fit in with humans having free will? Do we really have free will or are we completely at the mercy of God? Not long ago, I had a very long discussion with @ Nimos and we never really resolved this issue.
This thread is related to another thread I started entitled What is God responsible for?
I believe that God is responsible for some of our suffering but not all of it. I believe that people bring on some of their own suffering by the poor choices they sometimes make with their free will, but certainly people do not cause all their own suffering:
“Some things are subject to the free will of man, such as justice, equity, tyranny and injustice, in other words, good and evil actions; it is evident and clear that these actions are, for the most part, left to the will of man. But there are certain things to which man is forced and compelled, such as sleep, death, sickness, decline of power, injuries and misfortunes; these are not subject to the will of man, and he is not responsible for them, for he is compelled to endure them. But in the choice of good and bad actions he is free, and he commits them according to his own will.” Some Answered Questions, p. 248
And WHY is man compelled to endure them? Because God set it up that way by creating a material world for us to live in, all the while knowing it would cause suffering. How then can people say that God is not partly responsible for our suffering? In addition to that, God determines our fate, so God is responsible for a fate that brings on suffering. As the passage above says: “God grant that thou who art the fruit of My Tree, and they that are associated with thee, may be shielded from its evil consequences.”
If there are evil consequences as that result from a fate that God had predestined, that tells me that God is not all-loving, as many believers believe. To say that God lovingly causes suffering because it is for our own benefit does not cut it for me. Suffering may or may not benefit us, but it is still suffering. Moreover, if we never see the benefits of that suffering until the afterlife, we just have to have faith that there will be benefits.
God might still be benevolent though because it is possible that the suffering is for our own benefit, even if we do not realize it at the time, or until after we die.
I have been trying to resolve all of this in my mind since I have been enduring a lot of suffering lately, and I just do not know what to make of it. The other thing I have been trying to figure out is if it is of any use even trying to do things that might improve my life situation, if God has it all mapped out anyway. I seem frozen, unable to make any decisions, but then something happens and I make a decision and get something done. It is almost as if it was not going to happen in my own time, only in God's time, and that God is guiding my life.
Thoughts, ideas?
“Know thou, O fruit of My Tree, that the decrees of the Sovereign Ordainer, as related to fate and predestination, are of two kinds. Both are to be obeyed and accepted. The one is irrevocable, the other is, as termed by men, impending. To the former all must unreservedly submit, inasmuch as it is fixed and settled. God, however, is able to alter or repeal it. As the harm that must result from such a change will be greater than if the decree had remained unaltered, all, therefore, should willingly acquiesce in what God hath willed and confidently abide by the same.
The decree that is impending, however, is such that prayer and entreaty can succeed in averting it.
God grant that thou who art the fruit of My Tree, and they that are associated with thee, may be shielded from its evil consequences.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 133
Note that it says it “can succeed” not that it “will succeed.” What that amounts to is that we are completely at the mercy of God...
How does fate and predestination fit in with humans having free will? Do we really have free will or are we completely at the mercy of God? Not long ago, I had a very long discussion with @ Nimos and we never really resolved this issue.
This thread is related to another thread I started entitled What is God responsible for?
I believe that God is responsible for some of our suffering but not all of it. I believe that people bring on some of their own suffering by the poor choices they sometimes make with their free will, but certainly people do not cause all their own suffering:
“Some things are subject to the free will of man, such as justice, equity, tyranny and injustice, in other words, good and evil actions; it is evident and clear that these actions are, for the most part, left to the will of man. But there are certain things to which man is forced and compelled, such as sleep, death, sickness, decline of power, injuries and misfortunes; these are not subject to the will of man, and he is not responsible for them, for he is compelled to endure them. But in the choice of good and bad actions he is free, and he commits them according to his own will.” Some Answered Questions, p. 248
And WHY is man compelled to endure them? Because God set it up that way by creating a material world for us to live in, all the while knowing it would cause suffering. How then can people say that God is not partly responsible for our suffering? In addition to that, God determines our fate, so God is responsible for a fate that brings on suffering. As the passage above says: “God grant that thou who art the fruit of My Tree, and they that are associated with thee, may be shielded from its evil consequences.”
If there are evil consequences as that result from a fate that God had predestined, that tells me that God is not all-loving, as many believers believe. To say that God lovingly causes suffering because it is for our own benefit does not cut it for me. Suffering may or may not benefit us, but it is still suffering. Moreover, if we never see the benefits of that suffering until the afterlife, we just have to have faith that there will be benefits.
God might still be benevolent though because it is possible that the suffering is for our own benefit, even if we do not realize it at the time, or until after we die.
I have been trying to resolve all of this in my mind since I have been enduring a lot of suffering lately, and I just do not know what to make of it. The other thing I have been trying to figure out is if it is of any use even trying to do things that might improve my life situation, if God has it all mapped out anyway. I seem frozen, unable to make any decisions, but then something happens and I make a decision and get something done. It is almost as if it was not going to happen in my own time, only in God's time, and that God is guiding my life.
Thoughts, ideas?