Fate, predestination, and free will

[stvdv]

The great news is that very soon He will send His forces

How do you know for sure it will be "very soon"? I hear Christians claim this for ca.t 50 years already

And if you know, can you tell me, if it is a matter of: millennia, centuries, decennia, years, months, weeks, days?

 

[Nakosis]

Well. look who I drew out of the woodwork.

Of course, since you are an atheist, you can not going to view suffering in quite the same way as a believer, because there is just you and you, not you and God.

I agree that some of our suffering is just a learning experience and it is necessary to make a mistake and learn from it in order not to repeat that mistake again. But I still think that some things just happen because of fate and they could not have been prevented.

Lacking information gained from the event in question it is unlikely we had the knowledge prior to the event to have prevented it. This to us makes it feel fated. We could not have done anything other than we did do at the time.

I am also a bit stubborn and rely upon my experience to develop effective strategies for dealing with problems I encounter, but since I believe in God, I also believe that God is guiding me in some way to make better choices. As such I do not jump headlong into decisions like I used to do, trying to control everything. Rather, I try to wait until I am sure of my decision. I have found that if I make a decision too quickly just to get it over with, it often does not turn out as I had hoped it would. That happened to me this week, but I was able to reverse the decison and start over. Live and learn.

I also, in the past felt I was guided by "God" a benevolent being looking out for my welfare.

I least this provides a level of positive thinking that there is a purpose/plan. That what is put before you is not beyond what you can handle.

Now I feel there is no guarantee. I do my best and so far it has always worked out for me. My positive thinking comes from my past success. Just no longer assume I will always be successful.

Success for me equals survival. Failure is basically death.

Can I prevent my death? Well, good so far but I don't expect that to last.

Is my death fated?

There have been a number of events in my life that I could have died. I also feel I made choices at the time to prevent my death. Looking back I made choices that were good enough to prevent my death. I feel I could have also made choices that weren't successful.

Success breeds confidence. You have confidence in a higher power. I have confidence in myself. Perhaps neither is warranted.

People still die through no fault of their own as far as I can tell. So I'm lucky or blessed?

Why them and not me? If a God exists, why would God be looking out for me and not them?

I don't think there is anything special about me any more than the next fellow.

So God works in mysterious ways, or stuff just happens. No plan, no controls just folks trying to survive the best they can.

Not to claim my view is better. Just if a God does exist, I don't expect any favoritism.

 

[Clara Tea]

1. Baha’u’llah wrote that there are two kinds of fate and predestination, irrevocable and impending.
.........
2. Do we really have free will or are we completely at the mercy of God?
........
3. “Some things are subject to the free will of man, such as justice, equity, tyranny and injustice, in other words, good and evil actions; it is evident and clear that these actions are, for the most part, left to the will of man. But there are certain things to which man is forced and compelled, such as sleep, death, sickness, decline of power, injuries and misfortunes; these are not subject to the will of man, and he is not responsible for them, for he is compelled to endure them.

Psychics see branches in future events, but don't see branches where events must happen.

For example, it is probably impossible to stop an earthquake (at least impossible to convince a geophysicist that he must relieve stress on a fault). So, a quake will occur and nothing that humans "will do" will stop it.

Another example: God asked the best psychics of the world to give a warning to the world about a year prior to the war in Iraq (not to attack Iraq, just as the bible said not to). Though the decision to attack Iraq was made by humans, and though there was no reason whatsoever to attack Iraq, since it was not involved in terrorism, the decision was essentially "carved in stone" (that is, it could not be changed by any human action). This is because the thinking processes of President George W. Bush (and aides) were also carved in stone....immutable....unable to change. So psychics saw no branch in future events....war in Iraq was inevitable.

God sent divine insight to these psychics of God to repeat what the bible said. But, doesn't that seem wasteful to not give any further instructions, but merely repeat the predictions in Revelation (such as Revelation 15 (seven plagues, including COVID)? At least you know that the psychics had real predictions....real because they were also predicted in the bible (Revelation), but also real because the events actually happened during our lifetime.

The problem was, no one believed the bible (Revelation), and no one believed the psychics sent by God. It shows that if Jesus made his appearance on earth today, he would be dismissed as some sort of kook. His great powers would be dismissed as some sort of parlor trick, and, likely, Jesus would be nailed to a cross and killed again.

Defying God, and ignoring God's psychics is apparently normal. This is why God is going to kill all life on earth.

Sickness, injuries, and misfortune can be prevented and fixed, and humans don't have to endure them. There are branches in future outcomes that will avert such tragedies. For example, the famous psychic, Edgar Cayce, went into a trance and told a sick person to find a dusty bottle in an obscure drug store, on the top shelf, which would cure their obscure illness. The cure worked. Thus, irrevocable and impending predictions of the future are not the only outcomes, it is also possible to change the future in many instances.

In the bible (Revelation) it says that we must not attack Iraq or face God's wrath (including the death of all life on earth). Obviously God thought that mankind had a choice. But, as I explained, President W. Bush was unchangeable in making the mistake of attacking innocent people of Iraq. Also, no one heeded Revelation in the bible. Also, no one heeded the psychics of God who repeated God's warning in Revelation. Such is the power of Satan (who rules by fear and deception). W. Bush deceived us with phony Orange Alerts which were designed to instill fear. No wonder the bible says that Iraq was attacked by two demons, from the foul bottomless pit of hell, who ruled the most powerful nation in the world (Revelation 17:18).

Satan's fear and lies prevented people from hearing God's messages to the world, and prevented the psychics of God from reminding the world of God's words.

 

[blü 2]

Baha’u’llah wrote that there are two kinds of fate and predestination, irrevocable and impending. Both are to be obeyed and accepted. The irrevocable fate is fixed and settled; even though God is able to alter or repeal it God never does because of the harm that would result from such a change will be greater than if the decree had remained unaltered. As such, we are told that we should all willingly acquiesce to the irrevocable fate and confidently abide by it. The fate that is impending, however, is such that prayer and entreaty can succeed in averting it.

“Know thou, O fruit of My Tree, that the decrees of the Sovereign Ordainer, as related to fate and predestination, are of two kinds. Both are to be obeyed and accepted. The one is irrevocable, the other is, as termed by men, impending. To the former all must unreservedly submit, inasmuch as it is fixed and settled. God, however, is able to alter or repeal it. As the harm that must result from such a change will be greater than if the decree had remained unaltered, all, therefore, should willingly acquiesce in what God hath willed and confidently abide by the same.

The decree that is impending, however, is such that prayer and entreaty can succeed in averting it.

God grant that thou who art the fruit of My Tree, and they that are associated with thee, may be shielded from its evil consequences.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 133

Note that it says it “can succeed” not that it “will succeed.” What that amounts to is that we are completely at the mercy of God...

How does fate and predestination fit in with humans having free will? Do we really have free will or are we completely at the mercy of God? Not long ago, I had a very long discussion with @ Nimos and we never really resolved this issue.

This thread is related to another thread I started entitled What is God responsible for?

I believe that God is responsible for some of our suffering but not all of it. I believe that people bring on some of their own suffering by the poor choices they sometimes make with their free will, but certainly people do not cause all their own suffering:

“Some things are subject to the free will of man, such as justice, equity, tyranny and injustice, in other words, good and evil actions; it is evident and clear that these actions are, for the most part, left to the will of man. But there are certain things to which man is forced and compelled, such as sleep, death, sickness, decline of power, injuries and misfortunes; these are not subject to the will of man, and he is not responsible for them, for he is compelled to endure them. But in the choice of good and bad actions he is free, and he commits them according to his own will.” Some Answered Questions, p. 248

And WHY is man compelled to endure them? Because God set it up that way by creating a material world for us to live in, all the while knowing it would cause suffering. How then can people say that God is not partly responsible for our suffering? In addition to that, God determines our fate, so God is responsible for a fate that brings on suffering. As the passage above says: “God grant that thou who art the fruit of My Tree, and they that are associated with thee, may be shielded from its evil consequences.”

If there are evil consequences as that result from a fate that God had predestined, that tells me that God is not all-loving, as many believers believe. To say that God lovingly causes suffering because it is for our own benefit does not cut it for me. Suffering may or may not benefit us, but it is still suffering. Moreover, if we never see the benefits of that suffering until the afterlife, we just have to have faith that there will be benefits.

God might still be benevolent though because it is possible that the suffering is for our own benefit, even if we do not realize it at the time, or until after we die.

I have been trying to resolve all of this in my mind since I have been enduring a lot of suffering lately, and I just do not know what to make of it. The other thing I have been trying to figure out is if it is of any use even trying to do things that might improve my life situation, if God has it all mapped out anyway. I seem frozen, unable to make any decisions, but then something happens and I make a decision and get something done. It is almost as if it was not going to happen in my own time, only in God's time, and that God is guiding my life.

Thoughts, ideas?

Same old basic problems.

The universe operations by sequences of cause+effect, but the classical physics is interrupted here and there (we presently think) by quantum events that are, in terms of classical physics, random.

And the human brain operates by extremely complex interacting chains of cause+effect, perhaps relevantly disturbed here and there by QM random events, perhaps not.

There is no way that the human brain, even in theory, can make choices independently of its own decision-making processes.

There is no evidence to suggest souls exist, and no credible hypothesis as to how they might exist or how they might interact with the brain.

At the same time, if we posit a real and omnipotent, omniscient God who created the universe, then there is no way the universe can unfold ─ hence no way individual humans can act ─ in any manner that God did not perfectly foresee and intend when [he] made the universe. (And if we add that God is perfect, then there will never be a reason for God to alter the way universe unfolds, so God was functus officio as soon as the universe came into being, and will never have a reason to revisit [his] work.) So the only way theological free will could proceed is with a god who is not omnipotent / omniscient, or with a plurality of gods.

Nor have I ever seen a reasonable description of the procedure by which God makes decisions, let alone a means by which [he] could make decisions independently of that procedure.

None of that alters the position with the physics, of course.

 

[Trailblazer]

Exactly my point, hence it's not correct to say "we MUST obey fate and predestination"

Trailblazer said: ↑

fate and predestination, irrevocable and impending. Both are to be obeyed and accepted

“fate and predestination, are of two kinds. Both are to be obeyed and accepted. The one is irrevocable, the other is, as termed by men, impending. To the former all must unreservedly submit, inasmuch as it is fixed and settled.

The decree that is impending, however, is such that prayer and entreaty can succeed in averting it."

We must obey our irrevocable because they it is fixed and settled and God never alters it, but an impending fate can be altered (why it is termed impending) and as such if an impending fate (what could have happened) does not actually happen and become our actual fate (if prayer and entreaty succeeded in averting it), then we do not have to accept or obey it because there is nothing to accept or obey.

 

[stvdv]

“fate and predestination, are of two kinds. Both are to be obeyed and accepted. The one is irrevocable, the other is, as termed by men, impending. To the former all must unreservedly submit, inasmuch as it is fixed and settled.

The decree that is impending, however, is such that prayer and entreaty can succeed in averting it."

We must obey our irrevocable because they it is fixed and settled and God never alters it, but an impending fate can be altered (why it is termed impending) and as such if an impending fate (what could have happened) does not actually happen and become our actual fate (if prayer and entreaty succeeded in averting it), then we do not have to accept or obey it because there is nothing to accept or obey.

I have a different opinion and do not agree with your opinion "we must obey fate and predestination"

So I agree to disagree on this one

 

[Trailblazer]

He is very well aware of what is going on, and periodically has stepped in to take action, but once again for the long range goal.

I agree that God is very well aware what is going on because God is All-Knowing.
I agree that God has periodically stepped in to take action in furtherance of His long range goal.

The great news is that very soon He will send His forces to remove all those who refuse to accept Him as God and then establish His Kingdom.

I believe that God has already sent His forces in an effort to establish His Kingdom on earth.

As sure as He exists, that day is on the horizon.

I believe that the sun has already come up over the horizon and it is shining brightly.

 

[Trailblazer]

Lacking information gained from the event in question it is unlikely we had the knowledge prior to the event to have prevented it. This to us makes it feel fated. We could not have done anything other than we did do at the time.

That's true, and since every event is unique, the fact that we had similar experiences in the past is no guarantee that we can prevent the same thing from happening again by taking a certain course of action. Ultimately, we made the best decision we could, based upon all the information we had at the time, and we could not have done anything other than we did at the time. This makes it feel fated when we do not succeed in preventing something bad from happening.

I also, in the past felt I was guided by "God" a benevolent being looking out for my welfare.

I least this provides a level of positive thinking that there is a purpose/plan. That what is put before you is not beyond what you can handle.

Now I feel there is no guarantee. I do my best and so far it has always worked out for me. My positive thinking comes from my past success. Just no longer assume I will always be successful.

It has always worked out for me only in the sense that I survived it and came out on the other end. I'm still here.

Success for me equals survival. Failure is basically death.

Can I prevent my death? Well, good so far but I don't expect that to last.

Is my death fated?

I believe we are all fated to die someday, it is just a matter of when and how and where, and what will happen after that.

There have been a number of events in my life that I could have died. I also feel I made choices at the time to prevent my death. Looking back I made choices that were good enough to prevent my death. I feel I could have also made choices that weren't successful.

There have been a number of events in my life wherein I could have died while walking, riding my bike, or in a car, but I do not think it was me who prevented my death, it was fate. However, there are other times when I made a decision not to end my life and that was a free will decision. How much God was involved in that decision through His assistance I cannot say.

Success breeds confidence. You have confidence in a higher power. I have confidence in myself. Perhaps neither is warranted.

That's true, because it could always be different next time around. I had confidence I would get the past due rent money from a tenant because I got it in the past by taking a certain course of action, but when I took the same course of action again I did not get the same result. Life is a crap shoot, there are no guarantees. All we can so is our best.

People still die through no fault of their own as far as I can tell. So I'm lucky or blessed?

Why them and not me? If a God exists, why would God be looking out for me and not them?

I don't think there is anything special about me any more than the next fellow.

So God works in mysterious ways, or stuff just happens. No plan, no controls just folks trying to survive the best they can.

Nobody knows why them and not me, all we can know is what actually happens. We cannot know why God seems to favor some people and not others, why some people die young and others live to be old. I think it is a combination of factors, our free will choices as well as fate.

Not to claim my view is better. Just if a God does exist, I don't expect any favoritism.

I do not expect any favortism either, but it would be nice if suffering was more equally distributed.

 

[Trailblazer]

It shows that if Jesus made his appearance on earth today, he would be dismissed as some sort of kook.

I agree, and I believe that already happened. Christ did return, but He was rejected by most people..

Defying God, and ignoring God's psychics is apparently normal. This is why God is going to kill all life on earth.

I agree it is normal human behavior to defy God but I do not believe that God is going to kill all life on earth.

 

[Trailblazer]

if we posit a real and omnipotent, omniscient God who created the universe, then there is no way the universe can unfold ─ hence no way individual humans can act ─ in any manner that God did not perfectly foresee and intend when [he] made the universe.

I fully agree.

(And if we add that God is perfect, then there will never be a reason for God to alter the way universe unfolds, so God was functus officio as soon as the universe came into being, and will never have a reason to revisit [his] work.) So the only way theological free will could proceed is with a god who is not omnipotent / omniscient, or with a plurality of gods.

I do not see it that way. I believe that God was out of the ball game after he created the universe, except for sending Messengers, and being left on our own is all the more reason why humans were left on their own to exercise their free will. Theological free can and does proceed with a God who is omnipotent / omniscient, because that God gave humans free will, all the while knowing that was the best course of action because it was in the best interest of humans.

 

[blü 2]

I do not see it that way. I believe that God was out of the ball game after he created the universe, except for sending Messengers, and being left on our own is all the more reason why humans were left on their own to exercise their free will. Theological free can and does proceed with a God who is omnipotent / omniscient, because that God gave humans free will, all the while knowing that was the best course of action because it was in the best interest of humans.

My first objection to this reasoning is esthetic ─ if God only speaks through messengers, and no test will distinguish a real messenger from a claimant who's actually a non-messenger, then God's relation to humanity is reduced to a game. And not just a game, but a pointless game.

My second objection is to point to a contradiction in the ideas here ─ EITHER God perfectly knew everything that will ever happen in the universe at the time [he] made the universe OR humans have free-will such that they can act in ways inconsistent with God's perfect knowledge and take [him] by surprise, in which case [his] knowledge is imperfect, in which case [he]'s NOT perfect and NOT omniscient.

Choose one ─ I don't see how you can have both.

And third there's still the question of how humans can make decisions independently of their brains' evolved and entirely physical decision-making procedures ─ or any coherent explanation of the procedures by which God's brain makes decisions or how God can decide independently of those procedures.

 

[capumetu]

How do you know for sure it will be "very soon"? I hear Christians claim this for ca.t 50 years already

And if you know, can you tell me, if it is a matter of: millennia, centuries, decennia, years, months, weeks, days?

Actually sir, we have been teaching that the last days started in 1914, since Jesus stated that the generation who saw the start of it would not end, we feel it is very likely to be soon. The day and hour have not been revealed to us, so anything I would say would just be speculation, however something to consider is that Jesus gave those signs (Mat 24) to his disciples for them to understand, most of the people of the world are seeing these signs being fulfilled as well. No doubt with your age you have observed the many changes in society in your lifetime. Most people feel we are getting close.

If you are wanting to know the time period so you can jump in at the last moment, I don't think that will work. Jesus and other apostles emphasized keeping on the watch for his coming even in their day nearly 2000 yrs ago. Now is the time to take action for your salvation.

 

[capumetu]

I agree that God is very well aware what is going on because God is All-Knowing.
I agree that God has periodically stepped in to take action in furtherance of His long range goal.

I believe that God has already sent His forces in an effort to establish His Kingdom on earth.
We believe Jesus was enthroned as King and cleansed the heavens maam, which ushered in the last days of this planet. Satan being cast to the earth Rev 12:12 would take peace away from the earth Rev 6:4
God would start gathering His people during this time as the times of the Gentiles ended with Jesus enthronement Isa 2:2-4
The last days would not last longer than a generations life span Mat 24:34
God will let the earth go to the point of extinction and then send his forces to save His chosen ones Mat 24:22
The account of what happens when He sends those forces is recorded at 2 Thes 1:6-9. Clearly we have not seen that maam.


I believe that the sun has already come up over the horizon and it is shining brightly.

 

[stvdv]

If you are wanting to know the time period so you can jump in at the last moment, I don't think that will work. Jesus and other apostles emphasized keeping on the watch for his coming even in their day nearly 2000 yrs ago. Now is the time to take action for your salvation.

No need to worry about me. I met my Master already in 1990 and surrendered to Him and stayed 10 years with my Master. I am "saved "

 

[capumetu]

No need to worry about me. I met my Master already in 1990 and surrendered to Him and stayed 10 years with my Master. I am "saved "

I am very glad to hear that sir. Of course there is something to consider, most consider they are righteous Pro 21:2 but very few actually are Mat 7:14

 

[stvdv]

Actually sir, we have been teaching that the last days started in 1914, since Jesus stated that the generation who saw the start of it would not end, we feel it is very likely to be soon. The day and hour have not been revealed to us, so anything I would say would just be speculation

Okay, how you rephrased it now, I have no problems with it.

I have read before that "Earlier, the Jehovah's Witnesses predicted the world end for 1914, 1925, and 1975"

That was all I meant, we humans better never claim to know when, how and what will happen in the future with God, world, others.
Only God (*) knows. It would be even called blasphemy IMO if we think we know what God will do next

* Note: "Omniscience" being attributed to God

 

[stvdv]

I am very glad to hear that sir. Of course there is something to consider, most consider they are righteous Pro 21:2 but very few actually are Mat 7:14

I agree. My Master declared even "IF God had to kill all those who were unrighteous THEN none would survive"

So, if I am saved then it's only through the Grace of My Master. I have no misplaced illusions about "being saved"

 

[Trailblazer]

We believe Jesus was enthroned as King and cleansed the heavens maam, which ushered in the last days of this planet.

We all have our beliefs. I believe that the Bab and Baha'u'llah ushered in the Last Days in 1844.

God will let the earth go to the point of extinction and then send his forces to save His chosen ones Mat 24:22

I believe that humanity will be united and everyone will be saved, but it will get much worse before that happens.

“God’s purpose is none other than to usher in, in ways He alone can bring about, and the full significance of which He alone can fathom, the Great, the Golden Age of a long-divided, a long-afflicted humanity. Its present state, indeed even its immediate future, is dark, distressingly dark. Its distant future, however, is radiant, gloriously radiant—so radiant that no eye can visualize it............” The Promised Day is Come, p. 116

God’s Purpose

 

[firedragon]

Baha’u’llah wrote that there are two kinds of fate and predestination, irrevocable and impending. Both are to be obeyed and accepted. The irrevocable fate is fixed and settled; even though God is able to alter or repeal it God never does because of the harm that would result from such a change will be greater than if the decree had remained unaltered. As such, we are told that we should all willingly acquiesce to the irrevocable fate and confidently abide by it. The fate that is impending, however, is such that prayer and entreaty can succeed in averting it.

“Know thou, O fruit of My Tree, that the decrees of the Sovereign Ordainer, as related to fate and predestination, are of two kinds. Both are to be obeyed and accepted. The one is irrevocable, the other is, as termed by men, impending. To the former all must unreservedly submit, inasmuch as it is fixed and settled. God, however, is able to alter or repeal it. As the harm that must result from such a change will be greater than if the decree had remained unaltered, all, therefore, should willingly acquiesce in what God hath willed and confidently abide by the same.

The decree that is impending, however, is such that prayer and entreaty can succeed in averting it.

God grant that thou who art the fruit of My Tree, and they that are associated with thee, may be shielded from its evil consequences.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 133

Note that it says it “can succeed” not that it “will succeed.” What that amounts to is that we are completely at the mercy of God...

How does fate and predestination fit in with humans having free will? Do we really have free will or are we completely at the mercy of God? Not long ago, I had a very long discussion with @ Nimos and we never really resolved this issue.

This thread is related to another thread I started entitled What is God responsible for?

I believe that God is responsible for some of our suffering but not all of it. I believe that people bring on some of their own suffering by the poor choices they sometimes make with their free will, but certainly people do not cause all their own suffering:

“Some things are subject to the free will of man, such as justice, equity, tyranny and injustice, in other words, good and evil actions; it is evident and clear that these actions are, for the most part, left to the will of man. But there are certain things to which man is forced and compelled, such as sleep, death, sickness, decline of power, injuries and misfortunes; these are not subject to the will of man, and he is not responsible for them, for he is compelled to endure them. But in the choice of good and bad actions he is free, and he commits them according to his own will.” Some Answered Questions, p. 248

And WHY is man compelled to endure them? Because God set it up that way by creating a material world for us to live in, all the while knowing it would cause suffering. How then can people say that God is not partly responsible for our suffering? In addition to that, God determines our fate, so God is responsible for a fate that brings on suffering. As the passage above says: “God grant that thou who art the fruit of My Tree, and they that are associated with thee, may be shielded from its evil consequences.”

If there are evil consequences as that result from a fate that God had predestined, that tells me that God is not all-loving, as many believers believe. To say that God lovingly causes suffering because it is for our own benefit does not cut it for me. Suffering may or may not benefit us, but it is still suffering. Moreover, if we never see the benefits of that suffering until the afterlife, we just have to have faith that there will be benefits.

God might still be benevolent though because it is possible that the suffering is for our own benefit, even if we do not realize it at the time, or until after we die.

I have been trying to resolve all of this in my mind since I have been enduring a lot of suffering lately, and I just do not know what to make of it. The other thing I have been trying to figure out is if it is of any use even trying to do things that might improve my life situation, if God has it all mapped out anyway. I seem frozen, unable to make any decisions, but then something happens and I make a decision and get something done. It is almost as if it was not going to happen in my own time, only in God's time, and that God is guiding my life.

Thoughts, ideas?

There is an idea about God that creation of the universe was his prerogative, but he does not do unnatural things in this natural universe. That means, if a supplication is answered and fulfilled for a particular reason, it would not break the laws of nature. Nothing would break the laws of nature which he himself has set.

Think about this angle. If God has set the laws of nature, and you believe in this God who did that, breaking these laws of nature is an oxymoron. So my dearest sister, what ever suffering you had gone through, it is due to the laws of nature and this is the course we have to take.

One thing that must be understood is that, just because some people question another and require concrete answers like "God would message you via SMS service when a disease is on its way" does not leave anything to faith. Natural things that we go through are part of nature. The way the universe has been set up to deal with it, to produce, and to thrive.

The problem that is prevailing is our clergy men making every good thing that happens is the work of God, but any suffering is your problem. This kind of teachings have made us live in a confused state. The so called God who created this universe with all of these natural laws will not be intervening as we speak breaking those same laws he set. What ever divine intervention, if there is, does not occur in the observational realm.

The Quran says that it is for the Muttaqeen. This is a person who has a natural conscience, as if he believes in the unseen. Many people request information as if to want "men to not cheat when their wives are around". No no. Men are not supposed to cheat when the wives are "not around". In the same way, if God intervenes for us to observe, and takes away our suffering like Hermione Granger fixing Harry Potter's spectacles, there is no room for a Taqwaa.

Yet, God says in the Quran, to not take our "children as GOD". God also says in the Quran not to take our "wealth as God". It also says not to take our own ego/desire as God. Just imagine if we could actually follow these things that's said. The problem with many is that this understanding is not there. When it says to not take your children as God, that means to not worship them. Same goes to money and our own ego and our own desires. If one could understand this, there sets a strange calm in the face of all kinds of forces, nice or not so nice.

Ponder over it. I wish you all the best.
Peace.

 

[Trailblazer]

My first objection to this reasoning is esthetic ─ if God only speaks through messengers, and no test will distinguish a real messenger from a claimant who's actually a non-messenger, then God's relation to humanity is reduced to a game. And not just a game, but a pointless game.

I do not consider it a game because I believe it is possible to distinguish a true Messenger from a false messenger.
The fact that not everyone is successful does not mean it is impossible, it just means God did not choose to make it easy, for good reasons. It is not a pointless game, if one recognizes the true Messenger and gets the message.

My second objection is to point to a contradiction in the ideas here ─ EITHER God perfectly knew everything that will ever happen in the universe at the time [he] made the universe OR humans have free-will such that they can act in ways inconsistent with God's perfect knowledge and take [him] by surprise, in which case [his] knowledge is imperfect, in which case [he]'s NOT perfect and NOT omniscient.

Choose one ─ I don't see how you can have both.

We can easily have both because the fact that God knows everything that will ever happen is not what causes things to happen. What we do by virtue of our free will is what causes things to happen. Some things that happen might be fated by God to happen but we still have to make decisions and act on them in order for our fate to unfold.

“Every act ye meditate is as clear to Him as is that act when already accomplished. There is none other God besides Him. His is all creation and its empire. All stands revealed before Him; all is recorded in His holy and hidden Tablets. This fore-knowledge of God, however, should not be regarded as having caused the actions of men, just as your own previous knowledge that a certain event is to occur, or your desire that it should happen, is not and can never be the reason for its occurrence.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 150

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“Question.—If God has knowledge of an action which will be performed by someone, and it has been written on the Tablet of Fate, is it possible to resist it?

Answer.—The foreknowledge of a thing is not the cause of its realization; for the essential knowledge of God surrounds, in the same way, the realities of things, before as well as after their existence, and it does not become the cause of their existence. It is a perfection of God......

Therefore, the knowledge of God in the realm of contingency does not produce the forms of the things. On the contrary, it is purified from the past, present and future. It is identical with the reality of the things; it is not the cause of their occurrence.......

The mathematicians by astronomical calculations know that at a certain time an eclipse of the moon or the sun will occur. Surely this discovery does not cause the eclipse to take place. This is, of course, only an analogy and not an exact image.”
Some Answered Questions, pp. 138-139

Humans cannot act in ways that are inconsistent with God's perfect knowledge. What humans will choose to has to be identical with what God knows we will choose to do, since God knows what we will choose to do. But that does not mean God's knowledge causes us to do anything.

And third there's still the question of how humans can make decisions independently of their brains' evolved and entirely physical decision-making procedures ─ or any coherent explanation of the procedures by which God's brain makes decisions or how God can decide independently of those procedures.

You are assuming that human decisions are programmed by the brain and it is an automatic process but I propose that it is not the brain that makes the decisions at all; it is the soul working through the mind that is responsible for all our decisions. The mind is connected to the brain and works through the brain while we are alive in a physical body, but without a mind the brain is nothing more than gray matter. How the mind works is still a mystery to scientists because it is connected to the soul, and the soul is a mystery of God.