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Featured Fate, predestination, and free will

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Trailblazer, Jan 18, 2021.

  1. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Baha’u’llah wrote that there are two kinds of fate and predestination, irrevocable and impending. Both are to be obeyed and accepted. The irrevocable fate is fixed and settled; even though God is able to alter or repeal it God never does because of the harm that would result from such a change will be greater than if the decree had remained unaltered. As such, we are told that we should all willingly acquiesce to the irrevocable fate and confidently abide by it. The fate that is impending, however, is such that prayer and entreaty can succeed in averting it.

    “Know thou, O fruit of My Tree, that the decrees of the Sovereign Ordainer, as related to fate and predestination, are of two kinds. Both are to be obeyed and accepted. The one is irrevocable, the other is, as termed by men, impending. To the former all must unreservedly submit, inasmuch as it is fixed and settled. God, however, is able to alter or repeal it. As the harm that must result from such a change will be greater than if the decree had remained unaltered, all, therefore, should willingly acquiesce in what God hath willed and confidently abide by the same.

    The decree that is impending, however, is such that prayer and entreaty can succeed in averting it.

    God grant that thou who art the fruit of My Tree, and they that are associated with thee, may be shielded from its evil consequences.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 133

    Note that it says it “can succeed” not that it “will succeed.” What that amounts to is that we are completely at the mercy of God...

    How does fate and predestination fit in with humans having free will? Do we really have free will or are we completely at the mercy of God? Not long ago, I had a very long discussion with @ Nimos and we never really resolved this issue.

    This thread is related to another thread I started entitled What is God responsible for?

    I believe that God is responsible for some of our suffering but not all of it. I believe that people bring on some of their own suffering by the poor choices they sometimes make with their free will, but certainly people do not cause all their own suffering:

    “Some things are subject to the free will of man, such as justice, equity, tyranny and injustice, in other words, good and evil actions; it is evident and clear that these actions are, for the most part, left to the will of man. But there are certain things to which man is forced and compelled, such as sleep, death, sickness, decline of power, injuries and misfortunes; these are not subject to the will of man, and he is not responsible for them, for he is compelled to endure them. But in the choice of good and bad actions he is free, and he commits them according to his own will.” Some Answered Questions, p. 248

    And WHY is man compelled to endure them? Because God set it up that way by creating a material world for us to live in, all the while knowing it would cause suffering. How then can people say that God is not partly responsible for our suffering? In addition to that, God determines our fate, so God is responsible for a fate that brings on suffering. As the passage above says: “God grant that thou who art the fruit of My Tree, and they that are associated with thee, may be shielded from its evil consequences.”

    If there are evil consequences as that result from a fate that God had predestined, that tells me that God is not all-loving, as many believers believe. To say that God lovingly causes suffering because it is for our own benefit does not cut it for me. Suffering may or may not benefit us, but it is still suffering. Moreover, if we never see the benefits of that suffering until the afterlife, we just have to have faith that there will be benefits.

    God might still be benevolent though because it is possible that the suffering is for our own benefit, even if we do not realize it at the time, or until after we die.

    I have been trying to resolve all of this in my mind since I have been enduring a lot of suffering lately, and I just do not know what to make of it. The other thing I have been trying to figure out is if it is of any use even trying to do things that might improve my life situation, if God has it all mapped out anyway. I seem frozen, unable to make any decisions, but then something happens and I make a decision and get something done. It is almost as if it was not going to happen in my own time, only in God's time, and that God is guiding my life.

    Thoughts, ideas?
     
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  2. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    Kinda wordy.

    Thiughts?
    Predictions and predestination require the reversal of cause and effect.

    Prettty drastic stuff ust to allow for something that can not by shown to even exist.
     
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  3. KenS

    KenS Veteran Member
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    Interesting thoughts.

    As I look at my scriptures in light of the New Testament based on better promises, it seems to me that the suffering that God permits are those things done for His name sake. Standing for righteousness, preaching the gospel, suffering for His name sake.

    What is true too, as you mentioned, is that we cause many of our own problems. We give place to the devil or get out of being under God's authority and don't operate under Kingdom principles. (certainly a wide subject for such a short statement.) But we can repent real quick and get back under authority and operate under the Kingdom principles.

    Those things that stand against are those things that Jesus accomplished on the cross. Sickness, disease, sin consciousness, poor self-image or just when the devil throws the kitchen sink at us.

    One has to determine which of the three it is... 1) Permitted suffering for the gospel sake, 2) Our own creation 3) or an attack of the Devil

    Sometimes, it is getting quiet and simply asking God to reveal what are the next steps that helps. Sometimes someone who is mature in the faith that can see better because we are in the midst of the forest and can't see the clearing.

    Pray that God give you spirit of wisdom and revelation so that you can take the next steps to relief.
     
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  4. KenS

    KenS Veteran Member
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    I see predestination a little different than simply fate.

    I see it as a GPS predestination. I can miss the exit, decide later not to go there and then decide to go there again and a limitless other circumstances.

    But, if the destination is from God, He always says "recalculating - take next exit - make U-turn " and recalculates what He desired for your life.
     
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  5. rational experiences

    rational experiences Well-Known Member

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    Science human observation stated God O is a seal stone as science term.

    Reason artificial machine destruction using planet mass.

    O teaching human for humans.

    O stone philosophy relevant human advice.

    A planet O is reactive itself.

    That observation says right away no control.

    Freely changed.

    So we make the same comparable status.

    If God changed so does the environment. So too does life change.

    We taught do as little harm and change as possible. O body God to be feared.

    Relative human intelligent self advice.

    Father human taught us all with mother.

    We are all babies their children.

    Relative in teaching concepts.

    Never will we ever be our parent.

    Also relative teaching.

    Between a growing human to adult and once natural first pre existing adult human parents....science who changed God mass and environment changed our psyche

    Introduced AI machine subliminal mind.

    Encoded science human data.

    Never been the same human since.

    A human teaching about how human will destroyed life.

    We are not God our human teaching.

    Basic common sense about life survival.
     
  6. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    IMO, suffering/evil is all POV.

    There are consequences to our actions but I don't judge/see these consequences as suffering or evil. These to me are just a continuation of events that transpired.

    What happens, I just want to deal with as effectively/efficiently as possible. So I learn to deal better with stuff that happens in life. The only way to do that is by going through the stuff that happens in life. What you see as "evil" or "suffering" I see as learning experiences.

    My free will is in learning from the past to decide on better principles to deal with future events.

    In some cases someone can hand you a set of principles to deal with life events. You have to trust this person though as they may cover events beyond your experience since you don't know for yourself these principles will work for every event you come across.

    I'm stubborn, I don't trust. I rely on my experience to develop effective principles.

    I suppose if you choose to trust in the principles your religion provides then it is all laid out for you.

    Here's evil, here's suffering and the principles given to deal with them.

    Since I don't see suffering/evil these principles I don't feel would work for me.
     
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  7. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    I do not mind suffering for God's sake and it is not really suffering even though it is painful sometimes to sacrifice so much time and get so much rejection.
    I would agree with you on 1 and 2, but since I do not believe that the Devil is an exterior force, but rather believe it represents our own selfish material nature, I would say that # 3 would be the suffering that results from fate.
    I agree with that. :)
    Thanks, Christians are always so helpful because they have so much faith in God, something I lack. I have ample belief, but that is not the same as faith.
     
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  8. rational experiences

    rational experiences Well-Known Member

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    Human self owned is observed suffering.

    HumAns were witnessed suffering is scientific observation. Why it was written About.

    Subliminal language AI interferes with proper word context in explanation.

    The warning of two minds. Natural and forced belief.

    Science having proven subliminal mind control is controlled also.
     
  9. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    And it's good when we listen to the recalculation. ;)
     
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  10. rational experiences

    rational experiences Well-Known Member

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    Only if the humans transmitting via machines get taught a human lesson in their own brain irradiation prickling.. Then a victim would claim it good righteous and karmic.

    No machines God is not doing it scientist you are with a human purpose not a God purpose.

    Cannot stop lying can you.
     
  11. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Well. look who I drew out of the woodwork. :)

    Of course, since you are an atheist, you can not going to view suffering in quite the same way as a believer, because there is just you and you, not you and God.

    I agree that some of our suffering is just a learning experience and it is necessary to make a mistake and learn from it in order not to repeat that mistake again. But I still think that some things just happen because of fate and they could not have been prevented.

    I am also a bit stubborn and rely upon my experience to develop effective strategies for dealing with problems I encounter, but since I believe in God, I also believe that God is guiding me in some way to make better choices. As such I do not jump headlong into decisions like I used to do, trying to control everything. Rather, I try to wait until I am sure of my decision. I have found that if I make a decision too quickly just to get it over with, it often does not turn out as I had hoped it would. That happened to me this week, but I was able to reverse the decison and start over. Live and learn.;)
     
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  12. rational experiences

    rational experiences Well-Known Member

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    Science human man expressed beliefs said.

    O earth natural held energy mass owned no beginnings as it held form as stone only.

    To end God is to end life living standing on God.

    A human teaching.

    Said earth gases in space once we're burning.

    Earth cooling in gas light owned evaporation mass and microbes.

    Then God stopped Satan burning.

    Microbes of earth living in earth water changed as gases heavens cooled and went dark.

    Why it was taught God the planet owned life.

    Sun attacked converted God earth life. Sacrificed it.

    Science taught their selves that lesson when trying to string copy bio existence existing made daylight vacuum activated dark. No light.

    As life began naturally God earth and not any sun.

    Already were told the reason why life in water sea was living in darkness.

    Science owned no answers to copy.

    Then you would ask a human life was not invented. What do you claim you are copying.

    To witness the human warning coercive false human man destroyer false maths prophecies.

    Told to self about self human man in science conditions.

    Wasn't written for any argument was a stated human condition about lying egotists.
     
  13. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    Fate, predestination, and free will

    IF we MUST "obey fate and predestination" THEN this implies we MUST drop "Free Will". Bahaullah got Himself in a kind of problematic situation here
     
  14. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    No, not necessarily, because who is to say the everything in life is fated or predestined; and even if it is, who is to say that fate cannot be altered by God according to a free will decision that we make?

    “Know thou, O fruit of My Tree, that the decrees of the Sovereign Ordainer, as related to fate and predestination, are of two kinds. Both are to be obeyed and accepted. The one is irrevocable, the other is, as termed by men, impending. To the former all must unreservedly submit, inasmuch as it is fixed and settled. God, however, is able to alter or repeal it. As the harm that must result from such a change will be greater than if the decree had remained unaltered, all, therefore, should willingly acquiesce in what God hath willed and confidently abide by the same.” Gleanings, p. 133
     
  15. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    Ha. Insprrd of God, was it.

    Me, I dont have the patience to wade
    through all that tangled verbiage to
    see if there is some content.
     
  16. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    #MeToo.

    For me it was also too much, so I ONLY read the first line which seemed very inconsistent, hence I replied.
     
  17. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    That ponderously written faux-KJV
    English is enough to stop me before
    I finish the first line.
    "Knowest thou" in- freaking-deed.
     
  18. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    Oh, I did not even see that
     
  19. capumetu

    capumetu Active Member

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    The sad reality is ma'am, that our original parents asked God to butt out of our lives, as they wanted to be their own god. Gen 3:1-5

    In His infinite wisdom and for the long range goal, He granted their request and He is going to allow man to take it to the point of extinction and then step in Mat 24:22

    He is very well aware of what is going on, and periodically has stepped in to take action, but once again for the long range goal.

    The great news is that very soon He will send His forces to remove all those who refuse to accept Him as God and then establish His Kingdom. At that point you will be able to see the comparison of His ways vs the ways of the past, what a contrast it will be. Enjoy this fore-gleam ma'am: Revelation 21:3, 4) . . .I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”

    As sure as He exists, that day is on the horizon. Hope this helped you a bit.
     
  20. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    Exactly my point, hence it's not correct to say "we MUST obey fate and predestination"
     
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