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Fate, predestination, and free will

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I do not consider it a game because I believe it is possible to distinguish a true Messenger from a false messenger.
What's the test? The world needs to know.
We can easily have both because the fact that God knows everything that will ever happen is not what causes things to happen.
Yes, on the hypothesis of an omnipotent, omniscient God who made the universe, [he] knew exactly what [he] was doing, perfectly knew in advance everything that would ever happen, and went ahead knowing exactly what would happen. That is, the only things that have happened in the universe and will ever happen are the things God right at the start intended to happen.
What we do by virtue of our free will is what causes things to happen.
In that case, as I said, God is not omniscient, not omnipotent, not perfect.

As I also said, you can't have both. Your quotes don't take into account the factors that I've mentioned, either,
You are assuming that human decisions are programmed by the brain and it is an automatic process but I propose that it is not the brain that makes the decisions at all; it is the soul
That makes not the slightest difference in this scenario. Either God has perfect knowledge or [he] does not have perfect knowledge, If humans can do things that God cannot foresee then God isn't perfect, isn't omniscient &c.
 

capumetu

Active Member
Okay, how you rephrased it now, I have no problems with it.

I have read before that "Earlier, the Jehovah's Witnesses predicted the world end for 1914, 1925, and 1975"

That was all I meant, we humans better never claim to know when, how and what will happen in the future with God, world, others.
Only God (*) knows. It would be even called blasphemy IMO if we think we know what God will do next

* Note: "Omniscience" being attributed to God

I will say this sir, although I don't know the actual day or hour, I can narrow it down to within 3 days at this time.
 

capumetu

Active Member
I agree. My Master declared even "IF God had to kill all those who were unrighteous THEN none would survive" You are very well correct about that sir Romans 3:10

So, if I am saved then it's only through the Grace of My Master. I have no misplaced illusions about "being saved"

Those who are saved have been redeemed by the blood of the Lamb (Jesus).
 

capumetu

Active Member
We all have our beliefs. I believe that the Bab and Baha'u'llah ushered in the Last Days in 1844.Why then is the end not yet Mat 24:34

I believe that humanity will be united and everyone will be saved, but it will get much worse before that happens. Although that would be nice, the fact is the Bible does not teach that sir Mat 7:13, 14 Rev 21:8

“God’s purpose is none other than to usher in, in ways He alone can bring about, and the full significance of which He alone can fathom, the Great, the Golden Age of a long-divided, a long-afflicted humanity. Its present state, indeed even its immediate future, is dark, distressingly dark. Its distant future, however, is radiant, gloriously radiant—so radiant that no eye can visualize it............” The Promised Day is Come, p. 116

God’s Purpose
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
I will say this sir, although I don't know the actual day or hour, I can narrow it down to within 3 days at this time.
Knowing when the world will end, with an accuracy within 3 days, that is very accurate
I hope it will not be any time soon though

Those who are saved have been redeemed by the blood of the Lamb (Jesus).
Thanks for sharing your opinion on this. I have a different opinion, but I respect your opinion.
Respecting your opinion includes that I don't doubt that you will be saved by the blood of the Lamb (Jesus)
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Trailblazer said: We all have our beliefs. I believe that the Bab and Baha'u'llah ushered in the Last Days in 1844.

capumetu said: Why then is the end not yet Mat 24:34
Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.


This generation shall not pass until Mat 24:29-31 are fulfilled (come to pass). Everything in those verses has come to pass so we are living in the time of the end (Last Days). ‘Time of the end’ does not mean the end of the world, it means the end of an age, and many Bible translations say that. The end of the age means that the Age of Prophecy has ended. The prophecies for the return of Christ have been fulfilled and the reminder of the prophecies will be fulfilled during this age, which is the Messianic Age.​

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


In Mat 24:36-38 Jesus is saying that most people will not recognize Christ when he returns because they will not be paying attention, and then the flood will come and take them away….​

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.


In Mat 24:42-44 Jesus is saying that Christ will return like a thief in the night that breaks in and leaves the house, going undetected by the homeowner.​
Trailblazer said: I believe that humanity will be united and everyone will be saved, but it will get much worse before that happens.

capumetu said: Although that would be nice, the fact is the Bible does not teach that sir Mat 7:13, 14 Rev 21:8
The Bible does not teach that because humanity was not ready for that teaching back in the days when the Bible was written. That is why Jesus said:

John 16:12-13 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Baha’u’llah was the Comforter and the Spirit of truth who came to guide us into all truth and teach the many things humanity was not ready to hear back in the days of Jesus. He was also the return of Christ who ushered in the Last Days, the Messianic Age.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
What's the test? The world needs to know.
Claims to Prophethood stand or fall by application of these tests: whether the things that He had spoken have followed and come to pass, and whether His fruits have been good or evil; in other words, whether His prophecies are being fulfilled and His ordinances established, and whether His lifework has contributed to the education and upliftment of humanity and the betterment of morals, or the contrary.
Yes, on the hypothesis of an omnipotent, omniscient God who made the universe, [he] knew exactly what [he] was doing, perfectly knew in advance everything that would ever happen, and went ahead knowing exactly what would happen. That is, the only things that have happened in the universe and will ever happen are the things God right at the start intended to happen.
God knew they would happen and God allowed them to happen, but God did not cause/intend for them to happen.
In that case, as I said, God is not omniscient, not omnipotent, not perfect.

As I also said, you can't have both. Your quotes don't take into account the factors that I've mentioned, either,
No, you are wrong. You cannot say humans do not have any free will simply because God is omniscient, since God’s all-encompassing knowledge does not affect our decisions. Knowledge does not imply causation

God knows what we will DO with our free will because God knows everything. God could override our free will because God is omnipotent, but God does not override our free will because He CHOOSES not to.
That makes not the slightest difference in this scenario. Either God has perfect knowledge or [he] does not have perfect knowledge, If humans can do things that God cannot foresee then God isn't perfect, isn't omniscient &c.
I NEVER said that humans can DO things that God cannot foresee. God’s knowledge is all-encompassing, so God sees everything, before during, and after it takes place in this material realm of contingency. God SEES what we are doing at all times, but God does not interfere with in our free will decisions, because making choices - be they good or bad - and learning from the outcomes of those choices and developing character as the result of those choices is the purpose of this life. Moreover, it is the moral choices that are most important, the everyday run-of-the mill choices we make such as what to eat for dinner are inconsequential. For example my choice to be patient and kind to someone today helped me become a better person. I had a choice to make so instead I could have lost my patience and gotten angry.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

There can be no justice without free will. Let's say the insurrectionists who marched on Washington and trashed the Capitol building had no free will, then they would not be responsible for their actions, nor could they be held accountable.... In that case who would be accountable, God? Have you ever seen God tried in a court of law?

God is nevertheless omniscient and omnipotent, because without those attributes God would not be God, God would be no more than a mere human.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Claims to Prophethood stand or fall by application of these tests: whether the things that He had spoken have followed and come to pass, and whether His fruits have been good or evil;
Goodness! Even I nearly pass that test! Who do you know who doesn't?
in other words, whether His prophecies are being fulfilled
It's not a easy thing for a prophecy to be credibly fulfilled. First there must be a very high degree of certainty about who, when, and exactly what, so that any chance of a purported prophecy being made after the event is ruled out.

Then the prophecy itself must be so unusual as to eliminate chance, specific, unambiguous, and remote in time. Third, the event prophesied must clearly have happened, conformed with notable exactness to the prediction, not be explicable in other ways eg by chance, by being an outcome arranged to look like the fulfillment of the prophecy ─ and so on.

And there's never been a prophecy that satisfied those terms, never been a prophecy so specific and unforeseeable that the best explanation for it is supernatural foreknowledge rather than chance,
God knew they would happen and God allowed them to happen, but God did not cause/intend for them to happen.
No, [he] intended this conversation to occur, comma by comma, typo by typo, before [he] made the universe, and nor you nor I can deviate even by the width of a quark from what [he] perfectly foresaw and intended. We weren't around 14 bn years ago to agree with [his] vision, and none of it can be our fault./

The answer is otherwise, of course, if God is nor omnipotent nor omniscient nor perfect. But as long as [he] is, there's no possibility that human will is theologically free. (There appears no way it can be independent of the physics, but that's another field of argument.)
There can be no justice without free will. Let's say the insurrectionists who marched on Washington and trashed the Capitol building had no free will, then they would not be responsible for their actions, nor could they be held accountable.... In that case who would be accountable, God?
As I said above, theologically that would depend on the properties attributed to God.

In the real world, we've evolved to survive in cooperative groups, and accordingly to have what we call moral tendencies in our actions ─ child nurture and protection, dislike of the one who harms, like of fairness and reciprocity, respect for authority, loyalty to the group, and a sense of self-worth through self-denial. Plus empathy plus a conscience. We have the feeling that at the most basic level we own our choices, which is the starting point of justice. Meanwhile it's simultaneously clear that we have no way of making decisions independently of our brain's evolved decision-making processes, which are interacting chains of cause_effect of great complexity ─ but we're working on understanding them better.

This is why the defense of insanity has been steadily refined over the last two centuries or more. This is why SCOTUS recognized in 2005 (Roper v Simmons) that because the adolescent brain is not fully formed by age 17, the death penalty is not appropriate. In future, I dare say more subtle arguments will also be built on what we're learning about our brains.
Have you ever seen God tried in a court of law?
First [he]'d have to be real. Second, [he]'d have to be in the jurisdiction. Third, there'd have to be some way of establishing that [he]'d been duly served with the documents. Fourth, there's have to be some way of enforcing any ruling against him, whether criminal or civil.
 
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capumetu

Active Member
Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.


This generation shall not pass until Mat 24:29-31 are fulfilled (come to pass). Everything in those verses has come to pass so we are living in the time of the end (Last Days). ‘Time of the end’ does not mean the end of the world, it means the end of an age, and many Bible translations say that. The end of the age means that the Age of Prophecy has ended. The prophecies for the return of Christ have been fulfilled and the reminder of the prophecies will be fulfilled during this age, which is the Messianic Age.​
I fully agree Ecc 1:4. So perhaps you might answer if I rephrase, what hasn't the end of the age came, and the Kingdom established. No sir, 1844 is an impossibility.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


In Mat 24:36-38 Jesus is saying that most people will not recognize Christ when he returns because they will not be paying attention, and then the flood will come and take them away….​

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.


In Mat 24:42-44 Jesus is saying that Christ will return like a thief in the night that breaks in and leaves the house, going undetected by the homeowner.​

The Bible does not teach that because humanity was not ready for that teaching back in the days when the Bible was written. That is why Jesus said:

John 16:12-13 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Baha’u’llah was the Comforter and the Spirit of truth who came to guide us into all truth and teach the many things humanity was not ready to hear back in the days of Jesus. He was also the return of Christ who ushered in the Last Days, the Messianic Age.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I fully agree Ecc 1:4. So perhaps you might answer if I rephrase, what hasn't the end of the age came, and the Kingdom established. No sir, 1844 is an impossibility.
The time of the end (as per Daniel 12) was ushered in by the Bab and Baha'u'llah in 1844. Time of the end refers to the end of an age. The Prophetic Age ended in 1844 and a new age, called the Messianic Age (the Age of fulfillment of prophecy) began. An age is a period of time that spans many years.

how long is the messianic age

In the Baháʼí Faith, the "Messianic Age" refers to a 1000-year period beginning with the Declaration of Baháʼu'lláh in 1863. Baháʼís believe the period of peace and prosperity is gradually unfolding and will culminate in the appearance of "The Most Great Peace".
Messianic Age - Wikipedia


Let me ask you this question: When do you think the Kingdom will be established and why do you think that?

According to my beliefs, the Kingdom of God on earth will be built by humans who are following the instructions of Baha'u'llah, according to the blueprint He laid out for us to follow. The Kingdom of God is a new world order. We are in the process of building that new world order, but it will not be built overnight. It will take a long time because the old world order has to be torn down before the new world order can be built up. The process of tearing down and building up are going on simultaneously right now. Just turn on your television news. It's all there.

“Beseech ye the one true God to grant that all men may be graciously assisted to fulfil that which is acceptable in Our sight. Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth, and is the Knower of things unseen.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 7
 

capumetu

Active Member
The time of the end (as per Daniel 12) was ushered in by the Bab and Baha'u'llah in 1844. Time of the end refers to the end of an age. The Prophetic Age ended in 1844 and a new age, called the Messianic Age (the Age of fulfillment of prophecy) began. An age is a period of time that spans many years.

how long is the messianic age

In the Baháʼí Faith, the "Messianic Age" refers to a 1000-year period beginning with the Declaration of Baháʼu'lláh in 1863. Baháʼís believe the period of peace and prosperity is gradually unfolding and will culminate in the appearance of "The Most Great Peace".
Messianic Age - Wikipedia

Let me ask you this question: When do you think the Kingdom will be established and why do you think that? The Kingdom of God will come at the end of that age sir, not to exceed one generation. The generation of 1914 is quite old.

According to my beliefs, the Kingdom of God on earth will be built by humans who are following the instructions of Baha'u'llah, according to the blueprint He laid out for us to follow. The Kingdom of God is a new world order. We are in the process of building that new world order, but it will not be built overnight. It will take a long time because the old world order has to be torn down before the new world order can be built up. The process of tearing down and building up are going on simultaneously right now. Just turn on your television news. It's all there. Yes the Kingdom is an new world order, all human governments will be eliminated Dan 2:44 and Jesus as King with his cabinet of 144k Kings and Priests to rule over the earth. As soon as Jehovah is satisfied that we have preached the good news of the Kingdom to all the nations, the end will come, or should we say the beginning Mat 24:14

“Beseech ye the one true God to grant that all men may be graciously assisted to fulfil that which is acceptable in Our sight. Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth, and is the Knower of things unseen.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 7
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Yes the Kingdom is an new world order, all human governments will be eliminated Dan 2:44 and Jesus as King with his cabinet of 144k Kings and Priests to rule over the earth.
So you believe that Christianity will rule the world through the Jehovah’s Witnesses that were chosen, the elect? What is going to happen to all the people who are not Christians, which comprises about 70% of the world population? Are they going to be eliminated, or ruled by force?

Daniel 2:44 In the days of those [final ten] kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will its sovereignty be left for another people; but it will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it will stand forever.

Baha’is believe that God set up a Kingdom through Baha’u’llah, who was a universal Manifestation of God, and this Kingdom will endure forever and ever. However, Baha’is believe that humans will build that Kingdom and it will be ruled by human governments, as it is now.

“And that universal Manifestation will subdue the world by spiritual power, not by war and combat; He will do it with peace and tranquillity, not by the sword and arms; He will establish this Heavenly Kingdom by true love, and not by the power of war. He will promote these divine teachings by kindness and righteousness, and not by weapons and harshness. He will so educate the nations and people that, notwithstanding their various conditions, their different customs and characters, and their diverse religions and races, they will, as it is said in the Bible, like the wolf and the lamb, the leopard, the kid, the sucking child and the serpent, become comrades, friends and companions. The contentions of races, the differences of religions, and the barriers between nations will be completely removed, and all will attain perfect union and reconciliation under the shadow of the Blessed Tree.”
Some Answered Questions, p. 58

As soon as Jehovah is satisfied that we have preached the good news of the Kingdom to all the nations, the end will come, or should we say the beginning Mat 24:14

Matthew 24:13-15
Amplified Bible

13 But the one who endures and bears up [under suffering] to the end will be saved. 14 This good news of the kingdom [the gospel] will be preached throughout the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end [of the age] will come.


The gospel had been preached to all nations by the middle of the 19th century.

"A study of the spread of Christianity made by scholars of the 1840’s, convinced them that the message of Christ had, by their day, already encircled the globe. The Gospel was being taught in all the continents. By 1844 it was being taught even in the interior of Africa, not by solitary missionaries, but on an organized scale. A commercial history of East Africa states: “Christian missions began their activities amongst the African people in 1844. (Year Book and Guide to East Africa, Ed. by Robert Hale Ltd., London, 1953, p. 44)

Dr D. L. Leonard, historian of the Mission movement, in his A Hundred Years of Missions, says of the spread of the Word of Christ and His Gospel: “… for the first time since the apostolic period, (there) occurred an outburst of general missionary zeal and activity.”

He is speaking of the last years of the eighteenth century, leading to the nineteenth century, to 1844, and beyond. “Beginning in Great Britain, it soon spread to the Continent and across the Atlantic. It was no mere push of fervour, but a mighty tide set in, which from that day to this has been steadily rising and spreading.”

Another account states: “In 1804 the British and Foreign Bible Society was organised. Students of the prophetic word felt at the time that these agencies were coming in fulfilment of the prophecy.” (Our Day in the Light of Prophecy, Spicer, p. 308.)

This was a direct reference to the prophecy of Christ that He would return when His gospel was preached everywhere in the world…..

In Our Day in the Light of Prophecy, Spicer wrote that the Gospel in his day had been spread ‘to ninety-five per cent of the inhabitants of the earth.’ He added: “It was in 1842 that five treaty-ports in China were open to commerce and to missions—advance steps in the opening of all China to the Gospel. In 1844 Turkey was prevailed upon to recognise the right of the Moslems to become Christians, reversing all Moslem tradition. In 1844 Alan Gardiner established the South American Mission. In 1842 Livingstone’s determination was formed to open the African interior.”

Dr A. T. Pierson in Modern Mission Century wrote: “India, Siam, Burma, China, Japan, Turkey, Africa, Mexico, South America … were successively and successfully entered. Within five years, from 1853 to 1858, new facilities were given to the entrance and occupation of seven different countries, together embracing half the world’s population.”

There were many additional references which made it clear that the Gospel of Christ, and its teachers, had entered every continent by the year 1844, spreading the Word of Jesus the Christ throughout the world.

The millennial scholars of the 1840s felt that Christ’s first promise had been fulfilled. They felt it had been clearly demonstrated that the Gospel of Christ had been ‘preached in all the world for a witness’ and, therefore, the hour for His coming must now be at hand."

From: http://bahai-library.com/pdf/s/sears_thief_night.pdf

The end of an age means the Beginning of a new Divine Cycle of religion, not a continuation of the older Divine Cycle of religion of which Jesus was a part.

The end of the age and the beginning of a new age was ushered in by God in 1844 by the coming of the Bab and Baha’u’llah. Baha’u’llah was the return of the Christ spirit promised by Jesus and the Bab was the Gate through which Baha’u’llah entered, the One who came to announce His coming.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Goodness! Even I nearly pass that test! Who do you know who doesn't?
A better question would be who do you know who does pass these tests?

Who do you know who made prophecies that were fulfilled?

Who do you know who was the fulfillment of the Bible prophecies and the prophecies of other religions?

Who do you know who has ordinances that have been established?

Who do you know whose lifework has contributed to the education and upliftment of humanity and the betterment of morals?

“What then is the mission of the divine prophets? Their mission is the education and advancement of the world of humanity. They are the real teachers and educators, the universal instructors of mankind. If we wish to discover whether any one of these great souls or messengers was in reality a prophet of God we must investigate the facts surrounding His life and history; and the first point of our investigation will be the education He bestowed upon mankind. If He has been an educator, if He has really trained a nation or people, causing it to rise from the lowest depths of ignorance to the highest station of knowledge, then we are sure that He was a prophet. This is a plain and clear method of procedure, proof that is irrefutable. We do not need to seek after other proofs.” Bahá’í World Faith, p. 273

Other tests are to look at the life of the Prophet, how he lived and what He accomplished on His Mission, including how He suffered and sacrificed in the path of God.

Then of course we have to look at the scriptures, what was written on His behalf or what he wrote Himself.
It's not a easy thing for a prophecy to be credibly fulfilled. First there must be a very high degree of certainty about who, when, and exactly what, so that any chance of a purported prophecy being made after the event is ruled out.
The prophecies would not be made after the events. These would be prophecies that were made before the events, predictions that the Prophet made that came to pass later.

The Challenge of Baha'u'llah, PROOFS OF THE BAHA'I REVELATION, pp. 35-40
Then the prophecy itself must be so unusual as to eliminate chance, specific, unambiguous, and remote in time. Third, the event prophesied must clearly have happened, conformed with notable exactness to the prediction, not be explicable in other ways eg by chance, by being an outcome arranged to look like the fulfillment of the prophecy ─ and so on.
If you were counting on that prophecy to be used as proof of a Prophet, it would have to meet those criteria, but true Prophets do not make predictions for the purpose of proving themselves. They normally make them as warnings of what will happen if people do not do as they say; so for example Jesus predicted that He would return as a thief in the night and that He would be missed if people were not watching for Him.
And there's never been a prophecy that satisfied those terms, never been a prophecy so specific and unforeseeable that the best explanation for it is supernatural foreknowledge rather than chance,
No, because as I said prophecies are not intended to be used as proof that one is a Prophet.
No, [he] intended this conversation to occur, comma by comma, typo by typo, before [he] made the universe, and nor you nor I can deviate even by the width of a quark from what [he] perfectly foresaw and intended. We weren't around 14 bn years ago to agree with [his] vision, and none of it can be our fault./
God foresaw everything that would happen but God did not intend/cause it to happen, we did. To intend is to have a plan or purpose for something and only in a very general sense did God intend anything to happen. God has had a plan/purpose for humanity collectively from the beginning of time, an intention:

“God’s purpose is none other than to usher in, in ways He alone can bring about, and the full significance of which He alone can fathom, the Great, the Golden Age of a long-divided, a long-afflicted humanity. Its present state, indeed even its immediate future, is dark, distressingly dark. Its distant future, however, is radiant, gloriously radiant—so radiant that no eye can visualize it............” The Promised Day is Come, p. 116

God’s Purpose

But God does not control the individual events of our lives. We cause those to happen by the decisions we make and the actions we take. Some things that are outside our control are fated, but we cannot distinguish if it was free will that caused them or fate.
The answer is otherwise, of course, if God is nor omnipotent nor omniscient nor perfect. But as long as [he] is, there's no possibility that human will is theologically free. (There appears no way it can be independent of the physics, but that's another field of argument.)
It is free if God allows us to make the decisions and act without interference.
As I said above, theologically that would depend on the properties attributed to God.

In the real world, we've evolved to survive in cooperative groups, and accordingly to have what we call moral tendencies in our actions ─ child nurture and protection, dislike of the one who harms, like of fairness and reciprocity, respect for authority, loyalty to the group, and a sense of self-worth through self-denial. Plus empathy plus a conscience. We have the feeling that at the most basic level we own our choices, which is the starting point of justice. Meanwhile it's simultaneously clear that we have no way of making decisions independently of our brain's evolved decision-making processes, which are interacting chains of cause_effect of great complexity ─ but we're working on understanding them better.
As I said before, I do not believe humans are a product of cause and effect brain activity. Here is how I believe free will operates:

Humans have the will/ability to make choices based upon their desires and preferences. Our desires and preferences come from a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances. How free they are varies with the situation. Certainly what we refer to as “free will” has many constraints. However, we have the ability to make choices. Otherwise, we would just be at the mercy of our past experiences and our heredity.

Free will only applies to making moral choices or life decisions like marriage and career choices, or even simpler things like you want to go to the grocery store or a movie or post on a forum.

Free will does not apply to the things we are compelled to do or things we have no control over, such as eating, sleeping, diseases, injuries, misfortunes, and death. We are not responsible for the things we are compelled to do or the things which we have no control over, we are only responsible for the moral choices we make, such as being nice to someone or mean, rude or courteous. Am I going to give a struggling tenant the boot, or wait for him to pay the rent? I have a choice, at least after this eviction moratorium is over.
This is why the defense of insanity has been steadily refined over the last two centuries or more. This is why SCOTUS recognized in 2005 (Roper v Simmons) that because the adolescent brain is not fully formed by age 17, the death penalty is not appropriate. In future, I dare say more subtle arguments will also be built on what we're learning about our brains.
I agree that the individual differences in the brain can have an effect upon behavior and have to be taken into consideration in criminal cases. And there is a lot more that needs to be learned.
First [he]'d have to be real. Second, [he]'d have to be in the jurisdiction. Third, there'd have to be some way of establishing that [he]'d been duly served with the documents. Fourth, there's have to be some way of enforcing any ruling against him, whether criminal or civil.
So I guess that is a “no.” God cannot be put on trial and have the ruling enforced. I think God will be happy to hear that. :D
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Who do you know who was the fulfillment of the Bible prophecies and the prophecies of other religions?
There have been none, ever.
Who do you know who has ordinances that have been established?
My wife and I ran a pretty successful household.
Who do you know whose lifework has contributed to the education and upliftment of humanity and the betterment of morals?
My wife, most of the couples we've known. Good people are everywhere.
Other tests are to look at the life of the Prophet, how he lived and what He accomplished on His Mission, including how He suffered and sacrificed in the path of God.
No, that won't help. It's all subjective, all as long as your foot,
Then of course we have to look at the scriptures, what was written on His behalf or what he wrote Himself.
Same question ─ what objective test will tell you which purported scriptures are authentic, and which aren't?

None, right? All subjective, right? And the subjectivism commonly highly influenced by the culture one grows up in, right?
The prophecies would not be made after the events.
Of course it is. Daniel has numerous examples. In Tanakh politics, prophecies are one of the tools you can use, so why not use 'em?

These would be prophecies that were made before the events, predictions that the Prophet made that came to pass later.

The Challenge of Baha'u'llah, PROOFS OF THE BAHA'I REVELATION, pp. 35-40

If you were counting on that prophecy to be used as proof of a Prophet, it would have to meet those criteria, but true Prophets do not make predictions for the purpose of proving themselves. They normally make them as warnings of what will happen if people do not do as they say; so for example Jesus predicted that He would return as a thief in the night and that He would be missed if people were not watching for Him.
God foresaw everything that would happen but God did not intend/cause it to happen, we did.
We weren't there. We were still 13 bn years or more down the track. Yet everything we'd ever think and do were built into the creation of the universe and know to, hence intended by, God, right from before the start. Or, of course, God is not omnipotent or omniscient or perfect. As I keep saying, choose one or the other ─ you can't have both.
To intend is to have a plan or purpose for something and only in a very general sense did God intend anything to happen.
So God is NOT omniscient, NOT omnipotent, NOT perfect. Okay, that'll work theologically.

That only leaves the limits on freewill dictated by physics and brain research.
 

capumetu

Active Member
So you believe that Christianity will rule the world through the Jehovah’s Witnesses that were chosen, the elect? What is going to happen to all the people who are not Christians, which comprises about 70% of the world population? Are they going to be eliminated, or ruled by force?

Daniel 2:44 In the days of those [final ten] kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will its sovereignty be left for another people; but it will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it will stand forever.

Baha’is believe that God set up a Kingdom through Baha’u’llah, who was a universal Manifestation of God, and this Kingdom will endure forever and ever. However, Baha’is believe that humans will build that Kingdom and it will be ruled by human governments, as it is now.

“And that universal Manifestation will subdue the world by spiritual power, not by war and combat; He will do it with peace and tranquillity, not by the sword and arms; He will establish this Heavenly Kingdom by true love, and not by the power of war. He will promote these divine teachings by kindness and righteousness, and not by weapons and harshness. He will so educate the nations and people that, notwithstanding their various conditions, their different customs and characters, and their diverse religions and races, they will, as it is said in the Bible, like the wolf and the lamb, the leopard, the kid, the sucking child and the serpent, become comrades, friends and companions. The contentions of races, the differences of religions, and the barriers between nations will be completely removed, and all will attain perfect union and reconciliation under the shadow of the Blessed Tree.”
Some Answered Questions, p. 58



Matthew 24:13-15
Amplified Bible

13 But the one who endures and bears up [under suffering] to the end will be saved. 14 This good news of the kingdom [the gospel] will be preached throughout the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end [of the age] will come.


The gospel had been preached to all nations by the middle of the 19th century.

"A study of the spread of Christianity made by scholars of the 1840’s, convinced them that the message of Christ had, by their day, already encircled the globe. The Gospel was being taught in all the continents. By 1844 it was being taught even in the interior of Africa, not by solitary missionaries, but on an organized scale. A commercial history of East Africa states: “Christian missions began their activities amongst the African people in 1844. (Year Book and Guide to East Africa, Ed. by Robert Hale Ltd., London, 1953, p. 44)

Dr D. L. Leonard, historian of the Mission movement, in his A Hundred Years of Missions, says of the spread of the Word of Christ and His Gospel: “… for the first time since the apostolic period, (there) occurred an outburst of general missionary zeal and activity.”

He is speaking of the last years of the eighteenth century, leading to the nineteenth century, to 1844, and beyond. “Beginning in Great Britain, it soon spread to the Continent and across the Atlantic. It was no mere push of fervour, but a mighty tide set in, which from that day to this has been steadily rising and spreading.”

Another account states: “In 1804 the British and Foreign Bible Society was organised. Students of the prophetic word felt at the time that these agencies were coming in fulfilment of the prophecy.” (Our Day in the Light of Prophecy, Spicer, p. 308.)

This was a direct reference to the prophecy of Christ that He would return when His gospel was preached everywhere in the world…..

In Our Day in the Light of Prophecy, Spicer wrote that the Gospel in his day had been spread ‘to ninety-five per cent of the inhabitants of the earth.’ He added: “It was in 1842 that five treaty-ports in China were open to commerce and to missions—advance steps in the opening of all China to the Gospel. In 1844 Turkey was prevailed upon to recognise the right of the Moslems to become Christians, reversing all Moslem tradition. In 1844 Alan Gardiner established the South American Mission. In 1842 Livingstone’s determination was formed to open the African interior.”

Dr A. T. Pierson in Modern Mission Century wrote: “India, Siam, Burma, China, Japan, Turkey, Africa, Mexico, South America … were successively and successfully entered. Within five years, from 1853 to 1858, new facilities were given to the entrance and occupation of seven different countries, together embracing half the world’s population.”

There were many additional references which made it clear that the Gospel of Christ, and its teachers, had entered every continent by the year 1844, spreading the Word of Jesus the Christ throughout the world.

The millennial scholars of the 1840s felt that Christ’s first promise had been fulfilled. They felt it had been clearly demonstrated that the Gospel of Christ had been ‘preached in all the world for a witness’ and, therefore, the hour for His coming must now be at hand."

From: http://bahai-library.com/pdf/s/sears_thief_night.pdf

The end of an age means the Beginning of a new Divine Cycle of religion, not a continuation of the older Divine Cycle of religion of which Jesus was a part.

The end of the age and the beginning of a new age was ushered in by God in 1844 by the coming of the Bab and Baha’u’llah. Baha’u’llah was the return of the Christ spirit promised by Jesus and the Bab was the Gate through which Baha’u’llah entered, the One who came to announce His coming.

Ps 37:9-11, 29
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Ps 37:9-11, 29
Psalm 37 KJV

9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the Lord, they shall inherit the earth.

10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.

11 But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

29 The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever.


That's right, but who are the evildoers and who are the meek, that is the hundred-dollar question.
And how they will inherit the earth and delight themselves in the abundance of peace is another question.

I suppose you believe you have the answer to these questions, but I have different answers.
Please note that the verses say nothing about physical bodies rising from graves and living forever on earth.

I believe these verses are about people who are "living on earth" at the time of inheritance.
The meek who are "living on earth" after Christ returns shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.
The righteous who are "living on earth" after Christ returns shall inherit the land and live until they die, and then future generations of righteous people inherit the land and dwell in the land forever.

But those who turn away from Christ when He returns are the evildoers and the wicked who waited for the Lord but rejected Him when He appeared. Those people will still continue to live on earth but they will be cut off from knowing the Lord.
 
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capumetu

Active Member
Psalm 37 KJV

9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the Lord, they shall inherit the earth.

10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.

11 But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

29 The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever.


That's right, but who are the evildoers and who are the meek, that is the hundred-dollar question. Righteous worship Jehovah, wicked do not
And how they will inherit the earth and delight themselves in the abundance of peace is another question.
Doesn't seem complicated to me
I suppose you believe you have the answer to these questions, but I have different answers.
Please note that the verses say nothing about physical bodies rising from graves and living forever on earth. There were 10 resurrections performed all were physical with the exception of 1

I believe these verses are about people who are "living on earth" at the time of inheritance. verse 29 is the revealer sir
The meek who are "living on earth" after Christ returns shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.
The righteous who are "living on earth" after Christ returns shall inherit the land and live until they die, and then future generations of righteous people inherit the land and dwell in the land forever. No everlasting life? What is the point?

But those who turn away from Christ when He returns are the evildoers and the wicked who waited for the Lord but rejected Him when He appeared. Those people will still continue to live on earth but they will be cut off from knowing the Lord.
2 Thes 1:6-9
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
“Please note that the verses say nothing about physical bodies rising from graves and living forever on earth.”

There were 10 resurrections performed all were physical with the exception of 1
Do the verses say they were physical? If not they could have been spiritual, but even if there were some physical resurrections there are no verses say anything about physical bodies rising from graves and living forever on earth.
“I believe these verses are about people who are "living on earth" at the time of inheritance.”

verse 29 is the revealer sir

29 The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever.
That’s right, but the verse does not say “The righteous that have died will rise from their graves and they shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever.”

Thus the plain meaning is the righteous who are living on earth and anything else is adding to the Bible.
No everlasting life? What is the point?
There will be everlasting life for those who believed in Jesus but everlasting life does not mean living forever in a physical body on earth.

When Jesus referred to eternal life, but He was not referring to physical life of the body. He was referring a quality of life, spiritual life, loving God and being close to God. All the verses below refer to eternal life of the soul, not the eternal life of the physical body, since the physical body is subject to physical death whereas the soul is immortal.

John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.


Since the soul is immortal, all souls will continue to exist in the spiritual world after the body dies but not all souls will have eternal life (everlasting life). Eternal life refers to a “quality” of life, nearness to God which, according to Jesus, comes from believing in Him. Those people who are distant from God do not have eternal life, although their soul continues to exist in the spiritual world after their physical body dies.
 
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Trailblazer

Veteran Member
There have been none, ever.
How do you know that?
My wife and I ran a pretty successful household.
I was referring to religious ordinances.
My wife, most of the couples we've known. Good people are everywhere.
Fair enough, but how much of humanity has one of these individuals uplifted?
No, that won't help. It's all subjective, all as long as your foot,
No, what happened in the actual history -- the mission and the suffering and the sacrifices -- are objective, not subjective, although how you view these events might be subjective.
Same question ─ what objective test will tell you which purported scriptures are authentic, and which aren't?

None, right? All subjective, right? And the subjectivism commonly highly influenced by the culture one grows up in, right?
The Writings of Baha’u’llah have been authenticated by the Archives office and that process is still underway.

Texts, Sacred, Numbers and Classifications of
Of course it is. Daniel has numerous examples. In Tanakh politics, prophecies are one of the tools you can use, so why not use 'em?
There are also prophecies that were made by the OT prophets such as Daniel, and they were fulfilled by the coming of Baha’u’llah.
So God is NOT omniscient, NOT omnipotent, NOT perfect. Okay, that'll work theologically.

That only leaves the limits on freewill dictated by physics and brain research.
God is omniscient and omnipotent and we also have free will. There is no contradiction.

God is omniscient so God's essential knowledge surrounds the realities of all things, before during and after they play out in this contingent world, but God;s knowing does not CAUSE things to happen. Humans cause them by the free will decisions they make and the actions they take.

God is omnipotent so God can override any free will decision we try to make by disallowing the action we are about to take, but God normally allows our free will decisions and actions without interference.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
How do you know that?
Because the supernatural, including supernatural foreknowledge, exists only as concepts / things imagined in individual brains. Correct me with an authenticated counter-example if I'm wrong.
I was referring to religious ordinances.
Ours were not religious. They were simply the understandings, express or implicit, of our household.
Fair enough, but how much of humanity has one of these individuals uplifted?
Think globally, act locally. Though, I had a couple of terms as an elected representative, and got an environmentally friendly agenda largely through. And my wife and I were active in our community with various projects, such as plantings and rehab on public lands and we got a sports shed / club house built. We did our bit in the primary school Parents Group, and I was active in the organizing of local sports clubs that our kids played in. I only mention these things because you ask. (One of our projects was the only time I've knowingly worked alongside a fundie. He was a decent man, I have to report, but we were careful never to discuss religion.) Also, my wife was head of the children's speech therapy / speech pathology department at a large state hospital for many years, and a member of the brain injury team. She spoke at conferences and had a couple of published papers to her credit.
No, what happened in the actual history -- the mission and the suffering and the sacrifices -- are objective, not subjective, although how you view these events might be subjective.
We can only act in the circumstances we find ourselves in.
There are also prophecies that were made by the OT prophets such as Daniel, and they were fulfilled by the coming of Baha’u’llah.
And the Jewish leaders and the Pope agree with you?
God is omniscient and omnipotent and we also have free will. There is no contradiction.
EITHER God is omniscient, omnipotent and perfect OR we may have theological free will. Plain as can be.
 
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