Fate, predestination, and free will

[capumetu]

Do the verses say they were physical? If not they could have been spiritual, but even if there were some physical resurrections there are no verses say anything about physical bodies rising from graves and living forever on earth.

That’s right, but the verse does not say “The righteous that have died will rise from their graves and they shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever.”

Thus the plain meaning is the righteous who are living on earth and anything else is adding to the Bible.

There will be everlasting life for those who believed in Jesus but everlasting life does not mean living forever in a physical body on earth.

When Jesus referred to eternal life, but He was not referring to physical life of the body. He was referring a quality of life, spiritual life, loving God and being close to God. All the verses below refer to eternal life of the soul, not the eternal life of the physical body, since the physical body is subject to physical death whereas the soul is immortal.

Just what do you think the soul is sir? I see you agree with satan, but that is not true, Jehovah said man will die, I believe Him, He should know.

John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Since the soul is immortal, all souls will continue to exist in the spiritual world after the body dies but not all souls will have eternal life (everlasting life). Eternal life refers to a “quality” of life, nearness to God which, according to Jesus, comes from believing in Him. Those people who are distant from God do not have eternal life, although their soul continues to exist in the spiritual world after their physical body dies.

Strange, I wonder why Jesus had to die since we all have eternal life anyway. Fact is sir, there will be those who receive life eternal, as well as those who receive death eternal. Of course qualifications have to be met.

 

[Trailblazer]

Strange, I wonder why Jesus had to die since we all have eternal life anyway. Fact is sir, there will be those who receive life eternal, as well as those who receive death eternal. Of course qualifications have to be met.

Yes, there will be those who receive eternal life and those who do not receive it.

Jesus referred to eternal life, but He was not referring to physical life of the body. He was referring a quality of life, loving God and being close to God. Eternal life is a state of the soul that is near to God. One who is far from God will not receive eternal life.

Jesus came into the world and sacrificed Himself so that we would have eternal life. We might have had eternal life without the sacrifice, but we would not have had it if Jesus had not come into the world.

Question.—In verse 22 of chapter 15 of 1 Corinthians it is written: “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.” What is the meaning of these words?

Answer.—Know that there are two natures in man: the physical nature and the spiritual nature. The physical nature is inherited from Adam, and the spiritual nature is inherited from the Reality of the Word of God, which is the spirituality of Christ. The physical nature is born of Adam, but the spiritual nature is born from the bounty of the Holy Spirit. The first is the source of all imperfection; the second is the source of all perfection.

The Christ sacrificed Himself so that men might be freed from the imperfections of the physical nature and might become possessed of the virtues of the spiritual nature. This spiritual nature, which came into existence through the bounty of the Divine Reality, is the union of all perfections and appears through the breath of the Holy Spirit. It is the divine perfections; it is light, spirituality, guidance, exaltation, high aspiration, justice, love, grace, kindness to all, philanthropy, the essence of life. It is the reflection of the splendor of the Sun of Reality.

The Christ is the central point of the Holy Spirit: He is born of the Holy Spirit; He is raised up by the Holy Spirit; He is the descendant of the Holy Spirit—that is to say, that the Reality of Christ does not descend from Adam; no, it is born of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, this verse in Corinthians, “As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive,” means, according to this terminology, that Adam 1 is the father of man—that is to say, He is the cause of the physical life of mankind; His was the physical fatherhood. He is a living soul, but He is not the giver of spiritual life, whereas Christ is the cause of the spiritual life of man, and with regard to the spirit, His was the spiritual fatherhood. Adam is a living soul; Christ is a quickening spirit.

This physical world of man is subject to the power of the lusts, and sin is the consequence of this power of the lusts, for it is not subject to the laws of justice and holiness. The body of man is a captive of nature; it will act in accordance with whatever nature orders. It is, therefore, certain that sins such as anger, jealousy, dispute, covetousness, avarice, ignorance, prejudice, hatred, pride and tyranny exist in the physical world. All these brutal qualities exist in the nature of man. A man who has not had a spiritual education is a brute. Like the savages of Africa, whose actions, habits and morals are purely sensual, they act according to the demands of nature to such a degree that they rend and eat one another. Thus it is evident that the physical world of man is a world of sin. In this physical world man is not distinguished from the animal.

All sin comes from the demands of nature, and these demands, which arise from the physical qualities, are not sins with respect to the animals, while for man they are sin. The animal is the source of imperfections, such as anger, sensuality, jealousy, avarice, cruelty, pride: all these defects are found in animals but do not constitute sins. But in man they are sins.

Adam is the cause of man’s physical life; but the Reality of Christ—that is to say, the Word of God—is the cause of spiritual life. It is “a quickening spirit,” meaning that all the imperfections which come from the requirements of the physical life of man are transformed into human perfections by the teachings and education of that spirit. Therefore, Christ was a quickening spirit, and the cause of life in all mankind.

Adam was the cause of physical life, and as the physical world of man is the world of imperfections, and imperfections are the equivalent of death, Paul compared the physical imperfections to death.

But the mass of the Christians believe that, as Adam ate of the forbidden tree, He sinned in that He disobeyed, and that the disastrous consequences of this disobedience have been transmitted as a heritage and have remained among His descendants. Hence Adam became the cause of the death of humanity. This explanation is unreasonable and evidently wrong, for it means that all men, even the Prophets and the Messengers of God, without committing any sin or fault, but simply because they are the posterity of Adam, have become without reason guilty sinners, and until the day of the sacrifice of Christ were held captive in hell in painful torment. This is far from the justice of God. If Adam was a sinner, what is the sin of Abraham? What is the fault of Isaac, or of Joseph? Of what is Moses guilty?

But Christ, Who is the Word of God, sacrificed Himself. This has two meanings, an apparent and an esoteric meaning. The outward meaning is this: Christ’s intention was to represent and promote a Cause which was to educate the human world, to quicken the children of Adam, and to enlighten all mankind; and since to represent such a great Cause—a Cause which was antagonistic to all the people of the world and all the nations and kingdoms—meant that He would be killed and crucified, so Christ in proclaiming His mission sacrificed His life. He regarded the cross as a throne, the wound as a balm, the poison as honey and sugar. He arose to teach and educate men, and so He sacrificed Himself to give the spirit of life. He perished in body so as to quicken others by the spirit.

The second meaning of sacrifice is this: Christ was like a seed, and this seed sacrificed its own form so that the tree might grow and develop. Although the form of the seed was destroyed, its reality became apparent in perfect majesty and beauty in the form of a tree.

The position of Christ was that of absolute perfection; He made His divine perfections shine like the sun upon all believing souls, and the bounties of the light shone and radiated in the reality of men. This is why He says: “I am the bread which descended from heaven; whosoever shall eat of this bread will not die” 2 —that is to say, that whosoever shall partake of this divine food will attain unto eternal life: that is, every one who partakes of this bounty and receives these perfections will find eternal life, will obtain preexistent favors, will be freed from the darkness of error, and will be illuminated by the light of His guidance.

The form of the seed was sacrificed for the tree, but its perfections, because of this sacrifice, became evident and apparent—the tree, the branches, the leaves and the blossoms being concealed in the seed. When the form of the seed was sacrificed, its perfections appeared in the perfect form of leaves, blossoms and fruits.

Some Answered Questions, pp. 118-121

 

[Trailblazer]

Because the supernatural, including supernatural foreknowledge, exists only as concepts / things imagined in individual brains. Correct me with an authenticated example if I'm wrong.

I was not talking about the supernatural, I was talking about Bible prophecies that were fulfilled. I can give you examples of those.

Think globally, act locally. Though, I had a couple of terms as an elected representative, and got an environmentally friendly largely agenda through. And my wife and I were active in our community with various projects, such as plantings and rehab on public lands. We did our bit in the primary school Parents Group, and I was active in the management of local sports clubs that our kids played in. I only mention these things because you ask. (One of our projects was the only time I've knowingly worked alongside a fundie. He was a decent man, I have to report, but we were careful never to discuss religion.) Also, my wife was head of the children';s speech therapy / speech pathology department at a large state hospital for many years, and a member of the brain injury team. She spoke at conferences and had a couple of published papers to her credit.

I cannot say I have done ANY of those things, then again we never had any children and our marriage has been a rocky road. If everyone did what you and your wife have done, the world would be a better place, and I cannot say I know any religious people who do more in their communities. I have always said that generally speaking nonbelievers more aware of social, economic, political, and environmental problems that believes, as believers are too busy believing.

I also have always said to those whom much is given much is expected; both my husband and I were raised in dysfunctional families so we did not get anything from our parents except a roof over our heads. It is a small miracle we have fared as well as we have, but that is because I am very strong and persistent, so when I set my mind to something I usually achieve it, and that got me through many college programs.

We can only act in the circumstances we find ourselves in.

Sometimes that is true, unless we can change our circumstances, but that has not been easy for me, one thing I was getting at in the OP of this thread. I think that fate as much of an effect on our lives as free will.

And the Jewish leaders and the Pope agree with you?

No, they certainly don’t, then again they never bothered to study those prophecies and how they were fulfilled by Baha’u’llah because the Christians are still waiting for the same man Jesus to come down on the clouds and and fix everything that is wrong in the world and the Jews are still waiting for the Messiah they have made in their own image, according to their interpretation of their scriptures, a Messiah that is coming just to restore their people. Jews do not like my interpretations because I believe the Messiah came to save the whole world.

EITHER God is omniscient, omnipotent and perfect OR we may have theological free will. Plain as can be.

You are as stubborn as I am, maybe that's how you have accomplished so much in life...
If it is that plain, maybe you can explain it again plainly so I can explain why that is not the case.

 

[blü 2]

I was not talking about the supernatural, I was talking about Bible prophecies that were fulfilled. I can give you examples of those.

"Bible prophecies", like any prophecy, are about supernatural foreknowledge. If they were about natural foreknowledge they'd be given odds on Bet365.

I cannot say I have done ANY of those things.

I was only saying we each do what we can ─ think globally, act locally. I think it's very rare to find people lacking in some or other measure of goodwill.

I also have always said to those whom much is given much is expected

My grandpa was a laborer, a man of horseteams, and a farmer, and my dad, a country boy who went to university on scholarships, would agree with you. Not that I disagree either.

No, they certainly don’t, then again they never bothered to study those prophecies

Let's agree to disagree then ─ I think it's as close to certainty as possible that there's no such real thing as supernatural foreknowledge.

You are as stubborn as I am, maybe that's how you have accomplished so much in life...
If it is that plain, maybe you can explain it again plainly so I can explain why that is not the case.

Then let me put it in the form of a question. Since our postulated god is omnipotent, omniscient and perfect, and therefore perfectly knew (and therefore intended) everything that would ever happen in the universe [he] was creating, how can you ever, in thought, word or deed, deviate even in the tiniest way from what [he] perfectly foresaw?

You said earlier that [he] only foresaw generalities, but that in itself is an accusation of imperfection. To be perfect, [he] had to perfectly foresee.

 

[capumetu]

Yes, there will be those who receive eternal life and those who do not receive it.

Jesus referred to eternal life, but He was not referring to physical life of the body. He was referring a quality of life, loving God and being close to God. Eternal life is a state of the soul that is near to God. One who is far from God will not receive eternal life.

Jesus came into the world and sacrificed Himself so that we would have eternal life. We might have had eternal life without the sacrifice, but we would not have had it if Jesus had not come into the world.

Question.—In verse 22 of chapter 15 of 1 Corinthians it is written: “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.” What is the meaning of these words?

Answer.—Know that there are two natures in man: the physical nature and the spiritual nature. The physical nature is inherited from Adam, and the spiritual nature is inherited from the Reality of the Word of God, which is the spirituality of Christ. The physical nature is born of Adam, but the spiritual nature is born from the bounty of the Holy Spirit. The first is the source of all imperfection; the second is the source of all perfection.

The Christ sacrificed Himself so that men might be freed from the imperfections of the physical nature and might become possessed of the virtues of the spiritual nature. This spiritual nature, which came into existence through the bounty of the Divine Reality, is the union of all perfections and appears through the breath of the Holy Spirit. It is the divine perfections; it is light, spirituality, guidance, exaltation, high aspiration, justice, love, grace, kindness to all, philanthropy, the essence of life. It is the reflection of the splendor of the Sun of Reality.

The Christ is the central point of the Holy Spirit: He is born of the Holy Spirit; He is raised up by the Holy Spirit; He is the descendant of the Holy Spirit—that is to say, that the Reality of Christ does not descend from Adam; no, it is born of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, this verse in Corinthians, “As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive,” means, according to this terminology, that Adam 1 is the father of man—that is to say, He is the cause of the physical life of mankind; His was the physical fatherhood. He is a living soul, but He is not the giver of spiritual life, whereas Christ is the cause of the spiritual life of man, and with regard to the spirit, His was the spiritual fatherhood. Adam is a living soul; Christ is a quickening spirit.

This physical world of man is subject to the power of the lusts, and sin is the consequence of this power of the lusts, for it is not subject to the laws of justice and holiness. The body of man is a captive of nature; it will act in accordance with whatever nature orders. It is, therefore, certain that sins such as anger, jealousy, dispute, covetousness, avarice, ignorance, prejudice, hatred, pride and tyranny exist in the physical world. All these brutal qualities exist in the nature of man. A man who has not had a spiritual education is a brute. Like the savages of Africa, whose actions, habits and morals are purely sensual, they act according to the demands of nature to such a degree that they rend and eat one another. Thus it is evident that the physical world of man is a world of sin. In this physical world man is not distinguished from the animal.

All sin comes from the demands of nature, and these demands, which arise from the physical qualities, are not sins with respect to the animals, while for man they are sin. The animal is the source of imperfections, such as anger, sensuality, jealousy, avarice, cruelty, pride: all these defects are found in animals but do not constitute sins. But in man they are sins.

Adam is the cause of man’s physical life; but the Reality of Christ—that is to say, the Word of God—is the cause of spiritual life. It is “a quickening spirit,” meaning that all the imperfections which come from the requirements of the physical life of man are transformed into human perfections by the teachings and education of that spirit. Therefore, Christ was a quickening spirit, and the cause of life in all mankind.

Adam was the cause of physical life, and as the physical world of man is the world of imperfections, and imperfections are the equivalent of death, Paul compared the physical imperfections to death.

But the mass of the Christians believe that, as Adam ate of the forbidden tree, He sinned in that He disobeyed, and that the disastrous consequences of this disobedience have been transmitted as a heritage and have remained among His descendants. Hence Adam became the cause of the death of humanity. This explanation is unreasonable and evidently wrong, for it means that all men, even the Prophets and the Messengers of God, without committing any sin or fault, but simply because they are the posterity of Adam, have become without reason guilty sinners, and until the day of the sacrifice of Christ were held captive in hell in painful torment. This is far from the justice of God. If Adam was a sinner, what is the sin of Abraham? What is the fault of Isaac, or of Joseph? Of what is Moses guilty?

But Christ, Who is the Word of God, sacrificed Himself. This has two meanings, an apparent and an esoteric meaning. The outward meaning is this: Christ’s intention was to represent and promote a Cause which was to educate the human world, to quicken the children of Adam, and to enlighten all mankind; and since to represent such a great Cause—a Cause which was antagonistic to all the people of the world and all the nations and kingdoms—meant that He would be killed and crucified, so Christ in proclaiming His mission sacrificed His life. He regarded the cross as a throne, the wound as a balm, the poison as honey and sugar. He arose to teach and educate men, and so He sacrificed Himself to give the spirit of life. He perished in body so as to quicken others by the spirit.

The second meaning of sacrifice is this: Christ was like a seed, and this seed sacrificed its own form so that the tree might grow and develop. Although the form of the seed was destroyed, its reality became apparent in perfect majesty and beauty in the form of a tree.

The position of Christ was that of absolute perfection; He made His divine perfections shine like the sun upon all believing souls, and the bounties of the light shone and radiated in the reality of men. This is why He says: “I am the bread which descended from heaven; whosoever shall eat of this bread will not die” 2 —that is to say, that whosoever shall partake of this divine food will attain unto eternal life: that is, every one who partakes of this bounty and receives these perfections will find eternal life, will obtain preexistent favors, will be freed from the darkness of error, and will be illuminated by the light of His guidance.

The form of the seed was sacrificed for the tree, but its perfections, because of this sacrifice, became evident and apparent—the tree, the branches, the leaves and the blossoms being concealed in the seed. When the form of the seed was sacrificed, its perfections appeared in the perfect form of leaves, blossoms and fruits.

Some Answered Questions, pp. 118-121

God's purpose to fill the earth was altered with the sin of Adam, the establishment of the Kingdom coming will revert back to Jehovah's original purpose, for humans to fill the earth. Yes they will be physical beings.

 

[Trailblazer]

God's purpose to fill the earth was altered with the sin of Adam, the establishment of the Kingdom coming will revert back to Jehovah's original purpose, for humans to fill the earth. Yes they will be physical beings.

It seems to me that God's purpose was accomplished a long time ago, as the earth is filled to capacity and may not be able to sustain much more population.

Depending on which estimate is used, human overpopulation may have already occurred. Nevertheless, the rapid recent increase in human population has worried some people. The population is expected to reach between 8 and 10.5 billion between the years 2040 and 2050.
Human overpopulation - Wikipedia

Certainly, more human beings will be born every day, but none of them will be rising from their graves and living again in physical bodies. That is a complete fantasy based upon a misinterpretation of scripture.

But people are going to believe what they want to believe.

 

[capumetu]

It seems to me that God's purpose was accomplished a long time ago, as the earth is filled to capacity and may not be able to sustain much more population.
No maam, world conditions indicate Rev 21:3,4 have yet a futuristic fulfillment.

Depending on which estimate is used, human overpopulation may have already occurred. Nevertheless, the rapid recent increase in human population has worried some people. The population is expected to reach between 8 and 10.5 billion between the years 2040 and 2050.
Human overpopulation - Wikipedia
Even tho we live with the ground being cursed, the world provides plenty of food to fill the populace now. Waste is extreme! I am going to have to repeat that for emphasis, extreme. Imagine how it will be when the ground is released from it's curse.



Certainly, more human beings will be born every day, but none of them will be rising from their graves and living again in physical bodies. That is a complete fantasy based upon a misinterpretation of scripture.

Bible says it, I believe it. Time will reveal which one of us is correct

But people are going to believe what they want to believe.

Yes maam! For a fact.

 

[Trailblazer]

Bible says it, I believe it. Time will reveal which one of us is correct.

Bible says it, I believe it. Time will never reveal what Christians are waiting for, the return of "this same Jesus.".

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

These two verses in John 18 completely negate that Jesus is the King of this world or that Jesus will ever come to this world to rule it, and they fit perfectly together with John 17:4 and John 17:11. Jesus came into this world to bear witness unto the truth about God. He did that so there is no more reason for Jesus to come back to this world again. That is why Jesus said “I am no more in the world.”

I know JWs believe that Jesus will rule from heaven and you will surely find some Bible verses that "you believe" say that. One can find pretty much anything they want in the Bible and twist the real meaning in order to try to prove their beliefs are true. One can cherry pick verses and put them together in order to have their afterlife fantasies fulfilled... The problem is that other Christians who are reading the SAME Bible do not interpret those verses the way JWs interpret them so they have a different version of what will happen after they die.

 

[capumetu]

Bible says it, I believe it. Time will never reveal what Christians are waiting for, the return of "this same Jesus.".

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

These two verses in John 18 completely negate that Jesus is the King of this world or that Jesus will ever come to this world to rule it, and they fit perfectly together with John 17:4 and John 17:11. Jesus came into this world to bear witness unto the truth about God. He did that so there is no more reason for Jesus to come back to this world again. That is why Jesus said “I am no more in the world.”

I know JWs believe that Jesus will rule from heaven and you will surely find some Bible verses that "you believe" say that. One can find pretty much anything they want in the Bible and twist the real meaning in order to try to prove their beliefs are true. One can cherry pick verses and put them together in order to have their afterlife fantasies fulfilled... The problem is that other Christians who are reading the SAME Bible do not interpret those verses the way JWs interpret them so they have a different version of what will happen after they die.

Use your posted scriptures in context maam. You are quite correct that Jesus will not be a King in this world, matter of fact when they tried to make him their King, he refused.

His Kingdom is not of this world, and unless the Bible is false, it will displace all existing Kingdoms, and soon Dan 2:44

 

[Trailblazer]

Use your posted scriptures in context maam. You are quite correct that Jesus will not be a King in this world, matter of fact when they tried to make him their King, he refused.

His Kingdom is not of this world, and unless the Bible is false, it will displace all existing Kingdoms, and soon Dan 2:44

Daniel 2:44
New International Version

44 “In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever.

The Kingdom of God will last forever, it will never be destroyed or left to another people. It will crush other kingdoms and bring them to an end.

Please note that Daniel says that the God of heaven will set up a kingdom, it says NOTHING about Jesus doing anything. Jesus is not going to do anything at all. It is God who ushered in the Kingdom of God on earth when He sent His latest Messenger, Baha'u'llah. This Kingdom will endure forever.

“Know ye that the world and its vanities and its embellishments shall pass away. Nothing will endure except God’s Kingdom which pertaineth to none but Him, the Sovereign Lord of all, the Help in Peril, the All-Glorious, the Almighty. The days of your life shall roll away, and all the things with which ye are occupied and of which ye boast yourselves shall perish, and ye shall, most certainly, be summoned by a company of His angels to appear at the spot where the limbs of the entire creation shall be made to tremble, and the flesh of every oppressor to creep. Ye shall be asked of the things your hands have wrought in this, your vain life, and shall be repaid for your doings. This is the day that shall inevitably come upon you, the hour that none can put back. To this the Tongue of Him that speaketh the truth and is the Knower of all things hath testified.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 125

 

[Trailblazer]

"Bible prophecies", like any prophecy, are about supernatural foreknowledge. If they were about natural foreknowledge they'd be given odds on Bet365.

Yes, I see your point now. The fact that someone is seeing into the future is supernatural. since it is not natural for people to see into the future.

Let's agree to disagree then ─ I think it's as close to certainty as possible that there's no such real thing as supernatural foreknowledge.

Yes, I think we will have to agree to disagree about that.

Then let me put it in the form of a question. Since our postulated god is omnipotent, omniscient and perfect, and therefore perfectly knew (and therefore intended) everything that would ever happen in the universe [he] was creating, how can you ever, in thought, word or deed, deviate even in the tiniest way from what [he] perfectly foresaw?

You said earlier that [he] only foresaw generalities, but that in itself is an accusation of imperfection. To be perfect, [he] had to perfectly foresee.

I never claimed that we can in any way deviate from what God foresaw, from beginning to end. Remember, originally I said that we have to do what God knows we will do because God knows everything we will do, from beginning to end. However, God's knowledge of what we will do does not cause us to do what we will do. Rather we act of our own volition and do what God knows we will do.

 

[blü 2]

God's knowledge of what we will do does not cause us to do what we will do. Rather we act of our own volition and do what God knows we will do.

If God is omnipotent, omniscient and perfect then. convinced we're following our own choices, we run down the exact and only groove [he] prepared for us more than 13 bn years ago.

Otherwise, of course, if [he]'s not omnipotent, omniscient and perfect.

But that still leaves you with physical determinism.

 

[Trailblazer]

If God is omnipotent, omniscient and perfect then. convinced we're following our own choices, we run down the exact and only groove [he] prepared for us more than 13 bn years ago.

Otherwise, of course, if [he]'s not omnipotent, omniscient and perfect.

But that still leaves you with physical determinism.

You are thinking of God in a linear fashion, as if God planned everything from the very beginning and it has to go exactly how God planned it and never deviate. The thing is that what God knows will happen can change at any time according to what we choose to do. God of course always knew we would make a choice that would alter what would have otherwise happened, and thus alter what would have been our fate.

Baha’u’llah wrote that there are two kinds of fate and predestination, irrevocable and impending. Both are to be obeyed and accepted. The irrevocable fate is fixed and settled; even though God is able to alter or repeal it God never does because of the harm that would result from such a change will be greater than if the decree had remained unaltered. As such, we are told that we should all willingly acquiesce to the irrevocable fate and confidently abide by it. The fate that is impending, however, is such that prayer and entreaty can succeed in averting it.

 

[blü 2]

You are thinking of God in a linear fashion, as if God planned everything from the very beginning and it has to go exactly how God planned it and never deviate.

Yup. It's a direct and ineluctable consequence of God's perfect foreknowledge.

The thing is that what God knows will happen can change at any time according to what we choose to do.

That would only demonstrate the imperfection of God's foreknowledge, hence the imperfection of God. Nor would it escape physical determinism.

God of course always knew we would make a choice that would alter what would have otherwise happened, and thus alter what would have been our fate.

No, God always knew exactly what everyone would decide, so no question ever arises of God being taken by surprise. And if God had wanted anyone to do anything different, then being omnipotent [he] would have made the universe in a slightly but sufficiently different way. So whatever happens can only be what God has always intended.

If this omnipotent omniscient perfect God is also benevolent then all things happen for the good of humanity, World Wars, Covid and all. It's not a POV I share,

 

[capumetu]

Daniel 2:44
New International Version

44 “In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever.

The Kingdom of God will last forever, it will never be destroyed or left to another people. It will crush other kingdoms and bring them to an end.

Please note that Daniel says that the God of heaven will set up a kingdom, it says NOTHING about Jesus doing anything. Jesus is not going to do anything at all. It is God who ushered in the Kingdom of God on earth when He sent His latest Messenger, Baha'u'llah. This Kingdom will endure forever.

You are correct maam, it is God's Kingdom. Jesus has been given the crown however, (Kingship). When Jesus has brought the earthly possessions into harmony with God, then he will hand everything over to Jehovah
(1 Corinthians 15:24-28) . . .Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. 26 And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing. 27 For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that this does not include the One who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.



“Know ye that the world and its vanities and its embellishments shall pass away. Nothing will endure except God’s Kingdom which pertaineth to none but Him, the Sovereign Lord of all, the Help in Peril, the All-Glorious, the Almighty. The days of your life shall roll away, and all the things with which ye are occupied and of which ye boast yourselves shall perish, and ye shall, most certainly, be summoned by a company of His angels to appear at the spot where the limbs of the entire creation shall be made to tremble, and the flesh of every oppressor to creep. Ye shall be asked of the things your hands have wrought in this, your vain life, and shall be repaid for your doings. This is the day that shall inevitably come upon you, the hour that none can put back. To this the Tongue of Him that speaketh the truth and is the Knower of all things hath testified.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 125

Hope that helps

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer said: You are thinking of God in a linear fashion, as if God planned everything from the very beginning and it has to go exactly how God planned it and never deviate.

Yup. It's a direct and ineluctable consequence of God's perfect foreknowledge.

No, God's perfect foreknowledge has nothing to do with God planning anything. God does not make PLANS. God simply KNOWS what will happen, since the essential knowledge of God surrounds the realities of all things.

Trailblazer said: The thing is that what God knows will happen can change at any time according to what we choose to do.

That would only demonstrate the imperfection of God's foreknowledge, hence the imperfection of God. Nor would it escape physical determinism.

No, it would not demonstrate that because God’s perfect knowledge encompasses the realities of all things, so God always KNEW what we would choose to do. What God knows will happen does not change at any time according to what we choose to do because God always knew what we would choose to do.

The point is that God’s knowledge of what we will do does not cause us to do anything or stop us from doing anything, since we have free will to make our own choices.

Trailblazer said: God of course always knew we would make a choice that would alter what would have otherwise happened, and thus alter what would have been our fate.

No, God always knew exactly what everyone would decide, so no question ever arises of God being taken by surprise.

That is what I just said. God always knew we would make a choice that would alter what would have otherwise happened if we had not made that choice.

And if God had wanted anyone to do anything different, then being omnipotent [he] would have made the universe in a slightly but sufficiently different way. So whatever happens can only be what God has always intended.

No, since God gave man free will whatever happens is according to what humans choose to do. So whatever happens can only be what God has allowed humans to do with their free will.

If this omnipotent omniscient perfect God is also benevolent then all things happen for the good of humanity, World Wars, Covid and all. It's not a POV I share,

Ultimately, since God allows them to happen, even though they are caused by humans, they are for the good of humanity, since they are all leading towards God’s Purpose for humanity, the Kingdom of God on earth which will eventually be established.

“God’s purpose is none other than to usher in, in ways He alone can bring about, and the full significance of which He alone can fathom, the Great, the Golden Age of a long-divided, a long-afflicted humanity. Its present state, indeed even its immediate future, is dark, distressingly dark. Its distant future, however, is radiant, gloriously radiant—so radiant that no eye can visualize it............” The Promised Day is Come, p. 116

God’s Purpose

Please note what the following quote says.

“Beseech ye the one true God to grant that all men may be graciously assisted to fulfil that which is acceptable in Our sight. Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth, and is the Knower of things unseen.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 7

What it is saying is that we should ask God for His assistance in fulfilling what God wants for us, what He has known will be humanity’s destiny from the very beginning. God knows what will ultimately happen (what is as yet unknown to us, the unseen) so God knows that the present world order will be rolled up and a new order will be rolled out. All you have to do is turn on your TV to see this process has already been set in motion. Changes are happening all over the world in all systems - social, political, and economic – the likes of which recent history has never seen before. All these changes were predicted by Baha’u’llah over 150 years ago.

 

[Trailblazer]

You are correct maam, it is God's Kingdom. Jesus has been given the crown however, (Kingship). When Jesus has brought the earthly possessions into harmony with God, then he will hand everything over to Jehovah
(1 Corinthians 15:24-28) . . .Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. 26 And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing. 27 For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that this does not include the One who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.

Hope that helps

You are correct, it is God's Kingdom, but Jesus has not been given the crown so Jesus is not King. The crown was handed over to Baha’u’llah in 1863, so He is the King for this age.

God is the Ancient King. All the Messengers of God are Messengers of that ideal King, that unchangeable Essence we call God. As such, Jesus was the King for the age in which He appeared but Jesus was not the King for all time. Baha’u’llah was appointed by God as the designated King of the names and attributes of God for this age, as He said when He presented His Tablets to the reigning kings of the earth.

“Ye are but vassals, O kings of the earth! He Who is the King of Kings hath appeared, arrayed in His most wondrous glory, and is summoning you unto Himself, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting. Take heed lest pride deter you from recognizing the Source of Revelation, lest the things of this world shut you out as by a veil from Him Who is the Creator of heaven. Arise, and serve Him Who is the Desire of all nations, Who hath created you through a word from Him, and ordained you to be, for all time, the emblems of His sovereignty.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 211-212

 

[blü 2]

No, God's perfect foreknowledge has nothing to do with God planning anything. God does not make PLANS. God simply KNOWS what will happen, since the essential knowledge of God surrounds the realities of all things.

God made the world knowing everything that would ever happen in it.

So nothing happens except what God perfectly foresaw ─ and[his] omnipotence means [he] can avoid anything [he] doesn't want to happen by minute adjustments at the start; therefore if anything we think is bad happens, it can still only be what God has always intended.

God’s knowledge of what we will do does not cause us to do anything

As I said, yes it does ─ we can ONLY do what [he] perfectly foresaw. Our sense of choosing freely is an illusion. (The same is true of physical determinism.)

Ultimately, since God allows them to happen, even though they are caused by humans, they are for the good of humanity, since they are all leading towards God’s Purpose for humanity, the Kingdom of God on earth which will eventually be established.

With all due respect, I no more wish to live in a theocracy than in a dungeon!

 

[Trailblazer]

God made the world knowing everything that would ever happen in it.

So nothing happens except what God perfectly foresaw ─ and[his] omnipotence means [he] can avoid anything [he] doesn't want to happen by minute adjustments at the start; therefore if anything we think is bad happens, it can still only be what God has always intended.

God could avoid having things happen that He does not want to happen by intervening and overriding human free will decisions to act and make things happen. God does not have to make any adjustments at the start; God can intervene at any time, because God is omnipotent.

If anything good or bad happens, it is what God intends according to the definition of intend, because as I told you before, God has a purpose for humanity.

Intend: to have as a plan or purpose: intend

The caveat is that God is not going to FULFILL that purpose, humans are going to fulfill what God has purposed for them..

As I said, yes it does ─ we can ONLY do what [he] perfectly foresaw. Our sense of choosing freely is an illusion. (The same is true of physical determinism.)

Tell that to the judge: “Judge, I had no choice because free will is an illusion since God foresaw that I was going to kill my wife!”

That is completely illogical because what God KNOWS does not CAUSE humans to do anything. Humans choose to do what they do, which is what God KNOWS they will do, because God knows everything. It is as simple as that.

“the knowledge of God in the realm of contingency does not produce the forms of the things. On the contrary, it is purified from the past, present and future. It is identical with the reality of the things; it is not the cause of their occurrence........

The mathematicians by astronomical calculations know that at a certain time an eclipse of the moon or the sun will occur. Surely this discovery does not cause the eclipse to take place. This is, of course, only an analogy and not an exact image.”
Some Answered Questions, pp. 138-139

God’s knowledge of what will happen in the future does not cause it to happen, not any more than the astronomer’s knowledge of an eclipse causes the eclipse to happen in the future.

With all due respect, I no more wish to live in a theocracy than in a dungeon!

The Kingdom of God on earth will not be a theocracy. It will be comprised of secular governments who can work together in harmony and unity, just and fair governments as opposed to what we have now. There will be equity and justice for all.

 

[blü 2]

God does not have to make any adjustments at the start; God can intervene at any time, because God is omnipotent.

God never needs to make adjustments, because [he]'s perfect ─ no second guessing required,

God has a purpose for humanity.

And the entirety of that purpose was perfectly accomplished in its entirety when God made the universe,

Tell that to the judge: “Judge, I had no choice because free will is an illusion since God foresaw that I was going to kill my wife!”

"Judge, I see now that I only did ─ only ever could do ─ what you set me up to do."

"Yup."

The Kingdom of God on earth will not be a theocracy. It will be comprised of secular governments who can work together in harmony and unity, just and fair governments as opposed to what we have now. There will be equity and justice for all.

I have no argument with that as an ideal, but I'm not holding my breath.

Well, it's been fun. Shall we rule it off about here?