Fate Of Dreamers Rest With Congress

[metis]

We are not discussing what christians may or not believe either but you felt the need to bring it up. The discussion is about the dreamers and illegal immigration.

If you want to debate religion go to one of the other forums. This forum is for north american politics.

These issues have moral implications, and for one to try and dismiss this either feels that religion isn't really that important after all or that somehow moral judgments can't be attached to what happens politically.

Yes, one can have a moral judgment not based on religion, but you say you're a "Christian" and yet you say keep religion out of this. IOW, there's a disconnect somewhere, so maybe you can explain why this is and why you feel that you can't use religious morality when looking at politics?

 

[Enoch07]

Sanctuary cities are all over the country. Even in Texas. But I understand your media would never fill you in on that info. That would be bad for the GOP agenda. GOP media demonizes certain words/areas, etc. You just proved that.

Yes but most are in democrat strongholds. So it still stands. Just because a few are scattered in other areas of the country does not dispute my claim.

P.S. stop with the GOP madness. I am starting to be offended. I am not republican.

 

[Enoch07]

These issues have moral implications, and for one to try and dismiss this either feels that religion isn't really that important after all or that somehow moral judgments can't be attached to what happens politically.

Yes, one can have a moral judgment not based on religion, but you say you're a "Christian" and yet you say keep religion out of this. IOW, there's a disconnect somewhere, so maybe you can explain why this is and why you feel that you can't use religious morality when looking at politics?

Of course there are moral implications. But we do not govern based solely on morality. Or else we would just hand over power to theocrats. That is not something I would wish for and I am a thiest!

So there is something disingenuous about someone who I also know does not want to live under a theocracy to all of the sudden be overly concerned about morality.

This is the last I will say about it. Start a new thread if wish to continue.

 

[metis]

So there is something disingenuous about someone who I also know does not want to live under a theocracy to all of the sudden be overly concerned about morality.

And whom are you supposedly referring to?

This is the last I will say about it. Start a new thread if wish to continue.

You are not the dictator here nor the originator of the OP, so maybe it would be wise for you to tone down your arrogance and join us peons.

 

[tytlyf]

Yes but most are in democrat strongholds. So it still stands. Just because a few are scattered in other areas of the country does not dispute my claim.

P.S. stop with the GOP madness. I am starting to be offended. I am not republican.

Who cares where they're at? If more are in democratic states that means democrats have a more humanistic approach to policy. You're not a republican? What are you? You sound like a republican.

 

[Enoch07]

Who cares where they're at? If more are in democratic states that means democrats have a more humanistic approach to policy. You're not a republican? What are you? You sound like a republican.

Yes democrats do care more about people than they do budgets. Which is great and certainly nothing wrong about it. But at a certain point we can no longer continue to afford to help as many people, therefore it can become an issue. Some people believe we are at that point now, hence this debate.

As far as political leanings go. I am too socially too liberal to be considered republican. I am fiscally to conservative to be a democrat. I don't like big gubernment telling me what I can and cannot do, and taxations is theft (hyperbole)! What am I?

Libertarian

*Highlight the post for the answer!

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

It is small part of the whole illegal immigration issue. I do not want to turn away anybody.

Matter of fact I just spoke to my friend who immigrated here to the U.S. recently. He had to go through terrible things to get here so he could claim asylum. Because the country where he grew up would kill him if they found out he was gay. So he had a choice to escape or be executed if his secret got revealed. So I am very thankful that we are a country that is able to help him avoid execution.

But

As much as I would love to have everyone here that wanted to be here. There is only a finite amount of people we can afford to help. Even if every citizen gave every penny of money we earned. We can still only help a finite amount of people. At a certain point we have to be pragmatic. Maybe we can afford to keep the dreamers. But then thats 800,000 less other immigrants who we wont be able to afford. You cannot squeeze blood from a stone.

I believe we are at the tipping point of not being able to continue to take as many people. I am not saying we should stop completely, neither is Trump, but it is time to slow the flow down. It gives current immigrants time to assimilate, so that they can become tax payers, which in turn means more money so that we can afford to help more immigrants and so on.

Romanticism is a great thing (the huddled masses bit). But at a certain point we have to take our heads out of the clouds and be more pragmatic if we want to continue helping people.

What does any of that have to do with the fate of the DEAMERs?

And where's your heart?

Also, why did you disregard the material on the two scriptures from Matthew and my comments about the Golden Rule and merely repeat that we have no room at the inn?

Earlier today on another thread, somebody used the phrase, "Jesus taught ..." and I responded that Jesus is not teaching anybody anything today, and it seems that few of his adherents bother to read what he said or take it to heart.

What Christians actually learn is what matters, not little squiggles on a page that they can point to when expedient. Christianity is what Christians say and do, not the words attributed to Jesus.

• "You were hungry and thirsty, so I eliminated funding for Meals on Wheels and food banks. You were a stranger, so I vilified you and demanded that you be deported. You were naked, so I called you an evil liberal who hates conservative family values. You were sick, so I repealed your only hope for health care. You were in prison, so I tortured you." - Matthew 25: 42-43 in The Conservative Bible

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

at a certain point we can no longer continue to afford to help as many people

That is not a valid objection about a country that never talks about what it can afford when the subject is war or tax cuts for the wealthy. The budget only comes up when discussing spending money on the needs of ordinary people - we can't afford Medicare, we can't afford Obamacare, we can't afford Social Security, we can't afford to keep our promises to 800,000 young people, we can't --- what's that you say? A new multi-billion dollar military helicopter? Step right up. You say you need a bailout, Wall Street? How much?

Personally, I don't want to hear any more argument about why America can't afford to serve ordinary people.

 

[LuisDantas]

Of course there are moral implications. But we do not govern based solely on morality. Or else we would just hand over power to theocrats. That is not something I would wish for and I am a thiest!

Theocrats are not particularly skilled in the understanding nor in the encouragement of morality, so why do you make such a correlation?

 

[Enoch07]

What does any of that have to do with the fate of the DEAMERs?

And where's your heart?

Also, why did you disregard the material on the two scriptures from Matthew and my comments about the Golden Rule and merely repeat that we have no room at the inn?

Earlier today on another thread, somebody used the phrase, "Jesus taught ..." and I responded that Jesus is not teaching anybody anything today, and it seems that few of his adherents bother to read what he said or take it to heart.

What Christians actually learn is what matters, not little squiggles on a page that they can point to when expedient. Christianity is what Christians say and do, not the words attributed to Jesus.

• "You were hungry and thirsty, so I eliminated funding for Meals on Wheels and food banks. You were a stranger, so I vilified you and demanded that you be deported. You were naked, so I called you an evil liberal who hates conservative family values. You were sick, so I repealed your only hope for health care. You were in prison, so I tortured you." - Matthew 25: 42-43 in The Conservative Bible

Because separation of church and state brother.

Now if you want christians to move in the seat of power and start moral policing everyone. Thats on you. I am sure there are plenty of extremist theocrats out there who would love to have that opportunity. I do not want to live in a theocracy. Even if it was a christian theocracy. More than likely I would "get a bullet too" because I would stand up for my gay/pagan/etc friends/family.

Lets face the truth here as well. Its disingenuous at best, a weak attempt at manipulation at worst to spit bible versus at christians during a political debate that does not directly invlove religion!

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

"Morality is not mutually exclusive to religion".
Author: Every athiest ever.

Where is the church's response to this outrage?

From American Atheists President David Silverman, who released this statement in reaction to the DACA decision:

This is a difficult day for the more-than 800,000 people who have been helped by DACA.

As atheists, we know that it is only through human action that the lives of those in our community can be improved. There is no question that DACA has improved the lives of the men and women brought to our nation as children and, indeed, strengthened our communities.

This is about more than politics. This is about recognizing our shared humanity and celebrating the contributions made by all Americans, including those brought here as children. Just as our nation is made stronger by the diversity of religious views of its citizens, it is made stronger by its immigrants.

I have no doubt that countless DACA recipients were brought to our nation because of our commitment to religious freedom, religious equality, and government neutrality. I fight to protect those commitments and I will fight to protect those who come to the United States in search of them. Just as atheists are your friends, neighbors, and classmates, DACA recipients are as well. This is an issue that impacts us all.

I call on President Trump and Congress to act quickly to pass legislation that recognizes the shared humanity of these young people who are as much a part of our community as you or me. Threatening almost a million people with deportation does not make our nation stronger and is fundamentally at odds with our constitution’s promise of a more perfect union.​

The Secular Student Alliance offered only three words, but they left no confusion over where the group stands:

“We support dreamers!”​

The American Humanist Association released this statement from Executive Director Roy Speckhardt:

President Trump’s stunning move to end DACA jeopardizes the potentials of hundreds of thousands of people. This is another resolution among a string of decisions this administration has made that either fail to take into account the negative consequences on real human beings, or do so regardless of those consequences. One doesn’t even need to know the best long-term solutions to the challenges of undocumented immigration to recognize the inhumanity of this move.​

 

[Enoch07]

Theocrats are not particularly skilled in the understanding nor in the encouragement of morality, so why do you make such a correlation?

Your correct. But I would wager most theocrats think they are skilled in morality. Which is what makes them dangerous.

 

[LuisDantas]

Your correct. But I would wager most theocrats think they are skilled in morality. Which is what makes them dangerous.

Quite so!

 

[Enoch07]

Where is the church's response to this outrage?

Don't ask me. I don't believe in or like the physical institution of church. It certainly has no place in politics, unless it came down to someone trying to trying to outlaw religion itself.

Its official we live in the upside down! A christian arguing against the church having a say in politics while the athiest demand the church have a say!

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

We are not discussing what christians may or not believe either but you felt the need to bring it up. The discussion is about the dreamers and illegal immigration.

If you want to debate religion go to one of the other forums. This forum is for north american politics.

Actually, the OP was, "What is your opinion of the current administration decision to let Congress determine the fate of DACA."

The discussion is about the current administration and the fate of DACA, not immigration reform in general or future immigrants.

If you want to discuss future immigration, go to one of the other forums.

 

[metis]

Where is the church's response to this outrage?

From American Atheists President David Silverman, who released this statement in reaction to the DACA decision:

This is a difficult day for the more-than 800,000 people who have been helped by DACA.

As atheists, we know that it is only through human action that the lives of those in our community can be improved. There is no question that DACA has improved the lives of the men and women brought to our nation as children and, indeed, strengthened our communities.

This is about more than politics. This is about recognizing our shared humanity and celebrating the contributions made by all Americans, including those brought here as children. Just as our nation is made stronger by the diversity of religious views of its citizens, it is made stronger by its immigrants.

I have no doubt that countless DACA recipients were brought to our nation because of our commitment to religious freedom, religious equality, and government neutrality. I fight to protect those commitments and I will fight to protect those who come to the United States in search of them. Just as atheists are your friends, neighbors, and classmates, DACA recipients are as well. This is an issue that impacts us all.

I call on President Trump and Congress to act quickly to pass legislation that recognizes the shared humanity of these young people who are as much a part of our community as you or me. Threatening almost a million people with deportation does not make our nation stronger and is fundamentally at odds with our constitution’s promise of a more perfect union.​

The Secular Student Alliance offered only three words, but they left no confusion over where the group stands:

“We support dreamers!”​

The American Humanist Association released this statement from Executive Director Roy Speckhardt:

President Trump’s stunning move to end DACA jeopardizes the potentials of hundreds of thousands of people. This is another resolution among a string of decisions this administration has made that either fail to take into account the negative consequences on real human beings, or do so regardless of those consequences. One doesn’t even need to know the best long-term solutions to the challenges of undocumented immigration to recognize the inhumanity of this move.​

Let me just add to your excellent post that the Catholic Church bishops here in the States have also publicly stated that it would be basically anti-family to deport these Dreamers, especially since this is the only country most of them have known and that most of them have their families here.

Or, to use Obama's word, it would be "cruel" for these people to be deported whereas they've done nothing illegal and have contributed to our society with both labor and taxes.

 

[Enoch07]

Actually, the OP was, "What is your opinion of the current administration decision to let Congress determine the fate of DACA."

The discussion is about the current administration and the fate of DACA, not immigration reform in general or future immigrants.

If you want to discuss future immigration, go to one of the other forums.

Immigration is more relevant to the topic than religous beliefs.......

 

[metis]

"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Gandhi

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

I do not want to live in a theocracy. Even if it was a christian theocracy. More than likely I would "get a bullet too" because I would stand up for my gay/pagan/etc friends/family.

You feel free to talk about religion, and so do I.

How about standing up for the young people affected by the DACA matter?

Lets face the truth here as well. Its disingenuous at best, a weak attempt at manipulation at worst to spit bible versus at christians during a political debate that does not directly invlove religion!

This appears with your every post: "And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye."

Do you not see the irony here? Or the hypocrisy?

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Immigration is more relevant to the topic than religous beliefs

No it isn't. DACA has nothing to do with immigration. It's about deportation. That's the opposite. You're off topic.

You don't control the discussion. You cannot decide for all of us just where we can go off topic according to what you want to talk about, and what is off limits. The topic has obviously played itself out already. Nobody is giving their "opinion of the current administration decision to let Congress determine the fate of DACA" any longer. It's mostly you telling us how we can't afford immigrants - totally irrelevant regarding what to do with these young people - and people responding to that.

I am constantly challenging the assumption that Christianity teaches good morals and makes people better. Why wouldn't I comment on that now? I've asked you repeatedly where your heart is, how about the Golden Rule, and why do you disregard the scriptures in Matthew 18 and 19, and you repeatedly evade the questions and try to stop the questions from being asked.

I ask you all of those things again, although I don't really need or expect an answer. They're really just rhetorical questions that make their point just by being asked. Your silence is answer enough.

 

[james dixon]

Trump needs to visit the Statue of Liberty

STATUE OF LIBERTY

“Give me your tired, your poor/Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free/The wretched refuse of your teeming shore/Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me/I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

"The Statue of Liberty Enlightening the World" was a gift of friendship from the people of France to the United States and is recognized as a universal symbol of freedom and democracy. The Statue of Liberty was dedicated on October 28, 1886. It was designated as a National Monument in 1924. Employees of the National Park Service have been caring for the colossal copper statue since 1933.

In 1892, the U.S. government opened a federal immigration station on Ellis Island, located near Bedloe’s Island in Upper New York Bay. Between 1892 and 1954, some 12 million immigrants were processed on Ellis Island before receiving permission to enter the United States. From 1900-14, during the peak years of its operation, some 5,000 to 10,000 people passed through every day.