Faithless a Choice?

[nPeace]

When many folks speak of faith, what they mean is 'my faith'. Although folks of other religions may have loads of faith, they're still considered non-believers, by those from within a box.

They've never read the Christian book. They don't believe in Jesus. But if you spend a day with them, you'll leave knowing they're people of faith.

True. So are scientists, and skeptics, though they would deny their faith. We spend days with them on RF, so we should know.

 

[ChristineM]

The Garden of Eden account made that un-obstructively clear as to why.

I am talking of real people, not a pre historical myth

Millions of people are thirsting for the truth, and they are turning to God, for answers.

Is that truth that you believe or the truth that is in accordance with fact and/or reality?

In light of their disillusion with the failings of Government, and

And paedophile priests and religion in general and...

more and more people are being informed of the truth,

Which is why religion in real terms is declining.

 

[nPeace]

Yes (in my case anyway).


Where's the evidence that the bible is right?

Are you asking because you really want it, or are you already convinced there is none?

I can't just choose to find something convincing when I don't (or vice versa) - it really isn't a choice.

You disagree. Okay... but do you understand? I'm not sure you do.

 

[ppp]

Are you asking because you really want it, or are you already convinced there is none?

Why does it even matter if he is convinced there is none?

 

[nPeace]

Have you ever chosen to be convinced of something?

I don't know about you, but I can only believe something if I find it more convincing than the other options based on my personal standards and understanding. Now, if I change my standards or understanding, then I can be convinced of many different things.

Choice has no part in it.

I think we all choose whether to accept something or not. For example, something may be hard for us to accept, but we choose to accept it, or reject it.

 

[nPeace]

That would disqualify just about every character portrayed in the Bible itself as none of them required any such faith.

Somehow faith is now required and makes for quite a contradiction when comparing to the stories of biblical characters.

Can you explain? I don't understand.

 

[nPeace]

I am talking of real people, not a pre historical myth

I did include real people, did I not?

Is that truth that you believe or the truth that is in accordance with fact and/or reality?

I believe it's the truth. It seems evident to me that it is the truth.

And paedophile priests and religion in general and...

No, I am not talking about persons who according to my sister, "throw God under the bus".

Which is why religion in real terms is declining.

The other reasons mentioned before are, but not disillusionment with failure of Governmental systems.

 

[nPeace]

Why does it even matter if he is convinced there is none?

I think it matters because I would be willing to take a bit of time with it, if the person is not convinced otherwise. A man convinced against his own will, is of the same mind still... especially here on RF.

 

[halbhh]

Why does the world lack faith? Is it because there is lack of evidence, hence disbelief?
According to the Bible, No. This is not the case. To the contrary.

There is a huge amount of clear evidence, and many do believe. However, the Bible highlighted the reasons for the lack of faith - the faithless.
It said... "The reason why they were not able to believe is that again Isaiah said: “He has blinded their eyes and has made their hearts hard, so that they would not see with their eyes and understand with their hearts and turn around and I heal them.” Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory, and he spoke about him. All the same, many even of the rulers actually put faith in him, but they would not acknowledge him because of the Pharisees, so that they would not be expelled from the synagogue; for they loved the glory of men even more than the glory of God." - John 12:39-43.

So the reasons the Bible gave are, 1) God prevents them from having that faith; 2) They fear men, because they prefer glory from men.
In other words, God leaves people in a spiritually blind state, because they don't want to accept, or they don't want to face rejection and ridicule from the faithless, but want to receive praise from them.

Why would God, not rather open their eyes though. Does he not want to save them?
The simple answer is given at 2 Thessalonians 2:11, 12... That is why God lets a deluding influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie, in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.

According to the Bible, the simple answer is... it's what they choose.
Do they want to be faithless? Is that what the Bible is saying? Evidently, in a way, yes.
A person may believe something but they may not want to believe it, for their own personal reasons.
For example, the text above states one reason. The text quoted earlier gave another, when it said, they love the glory of men, and they feared rejection.

Is God fair in letting people choose even though it results in the person's harm, rather than their benefit?
I'm glad I can make a free choice, and I am sure Atheists, and agnostics are equally happy that they can freely choose what they want to accept.

So whether one has faith or not, is actually up to an individual. It a personal choice.
Thoughts?

Without the more full context, many things in scripture (when typically quoted in isolation) can seem less fair than they actually are when we hear more of the full context.

For instance, how could it ever be fair that some wouldn't be helped at all to achieve faith?

Well, it only could make sense with more context. Such as this for example (this isn't all, but is some) --


6 For though the LORD is high, he regards the lowly,
but the haughty he knows from afar.

34 Toward the scorners he is scornful,
but to the humble he gives favor.

23 One’s pride [arrogance] will bring him low,
but he who is lowly in spirit will obtain honor.

12 Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

52 he has brought down the mighty from their thrones
and exalted those of humble estate;

6 But he gives more grace. Therefore it says, “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.”

Psalm 138:6; Proverbs 3:34; Proverbs 29:23; Matthew 23:12; Luke 1:52; James 4:6; 1 Peter 5:5

So, here we get a really key piece of context (from throughout many places in the old and new testaments (this was only a partial listing).

God resists the proud (arrogant).

Why? I think in part for much the same reason people everywhere find arrogant people almost impossible to work with, live with, be with: it's just not a good way to be. It's not what you'd want around in an eternal life for instance. A proud [arrogant] person tends to discount (ignore) the contributions of others around them. They tend to overvalue their own wisdom or virtues, and so on. They provoke rightful anger against their unjust attitude.

So, if God doesn't help an arrogant or scornful person make it, we can be grateful.

But we know He is quick to show mercy and forgiveness to anyone that turns to Him in humble repentance!

 

[Shadow Wolf]

New Why does the world lack faith? Is it because there is lack of evidence, hence disbelief?
According to the Bible, No. This is not the case. To the contrary.

That is the exact reason I gave it up. I remember the exact night and event and thoughts that went through my head.

In other words, God leaves people in a spiritually blind state, because they don't want to accept, or they don't want to face rejection and ridicule from the faithless, but want to receive praise from them.

The Bible is wrong again.
Instead using an ancient book that knew absolutely nothing of human psychology to understand people's behaviors, why not just ask them? You'll get more honest and less disgustingly biased answers.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The Bible has some truly insightful passages in it. Wish its treatment of atheism and non-belief rose above the level of mudslinging.

In my mind the Bible is filled with so much hatred, violence, misogyny, repression amd all-round general garbage that the shreds of good it has aren't worth saving. It's like looking at a thoroughly condemnable house and insisting it be saved because it has a nice kitchen, never minding the fact plenty of other houses had the same kitchen before and many newer houses have better and newer kitchens and the houses aren't supported by a mouldly frames and a rotten foundation.

 

[nPeace]

Without the more full context, many things in scripture (when typically quoted in isolation) can seem less fair than they actually are when we hear more of the full context.

For instance, how could it ever be fair that some wouldn't be helped at all to achieve faith?

Well, it only could make sense with more context. Such as this for example (this isn't all, but is some) --


6 For though the LORD is high, he regards the lowly,
but the haughty he knows from afar.

34 Toward the scorners he is scornful,
but to the humble he gives favor.

23 One’s pride [arrogance] will bring him low,
but he who is lowly in spirit will obtain honor.

12 Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

52 he has brought down the mighty from their thrones
and exalted those of humble estate;

6 But he gives more grace. Therefore it says, “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.”

Psalm 138:6; Proverbs 3:34; Proverbs 29:23; Matthew 23:12; Luke 1:52; James 4:6; 1 Peter 5:5

So, here we get a really key piece of context (from throughout many places in the old and new testaments (this was only a partial listing).

God resists the proud (arrogant).

Why? I think in part for much the same reason people everywhere find arrogant people almost impossible to work with, live with, be with: it's just not a good way to be. It's not what you'd want around in an eternal life for instance. A proud [arrogant] person tends to discount (ignore) the contributions of others around them. They tend to overvalue their own wisdom or virtues, and so on. They provoke rightful anger against their unjust attitude.

So, if God doesn't help an arrogant or scornful person make it, we can be grateful.

But we know He is quick to show mercy and forgiveness to anyone that turns to Him in humble repentance!

Exactly. Thanks for adding those details.

 

[nPeace]

That is the exact reason I gave it up. I remember the exact night and event and thoughts that went through my head.

The Bible is wrong again.
Instead using an ancient book that knew absolutely nothing of human psychology to understand people's behaviors, why not just ask them? You'll get more honest and less disgustingly biased answers.

You gave up because... I didn't get your answer.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

You gave up because... I didn't get your answer.

The very reason you said juast can't be because a silly book of ancient superstitions said it's better to ignore facts and not ask questions about it and instead pretend you're better than those "blind non believers."

 

[Clara Tea]

There is a difference between believing in God and having faith.

For example, supposedly President W. Bush believed in God. But in the bible (Revelation) it says that we must not attack Iraq or face God's wrath (example, Revelation 15 (seven plagues, such as COVID)). In the 10 Commandments, God said "thou shalt not kill." This proves that President W. Bush had no faith. He might have (or might not have) believed in God, but he defied God by attacking Iraq and defied God by killing, and defied God by bearing false witness against Iraq (accusing them of terrorism, though they were completely innocent).

Therefore President W. Bush was faithless because he should have left terrorism in God's hands, and God would deal with the terrorists. The faithful would "turn the other cheek" rather than make war and kill.

This may come as a surprise to some, but all knowing and all powerful God was right and President W. Bush was wrong.

We are supposed to retain our faith, especially, in bad times. When attacked by the al Qaeda (in the 911 attack), we were supposed to retain our faith rather than use our feeble human minds to figure that we were sitting ducks to terrorists and that we should bring the attack to their land rather than fighting them on our soil. In other words, do what God wants us to do, rather than do what feeble human minds tell us to do.

People of faith follow God, not mankind. Faith isn't about using common sense. Faith is about knowing what is right, whether it makes sense or not....whether it can be proven or not.

Fear and lies (Satan's tools) keep people from faith. For example, the many Orange alerts issued by the Department of Homeland Security were designed to scare us into supporting W. Bush's unholy wars. Tom Ridge, Director of Homeland Security, was the only person who could have issued alerts. Yet, on the Paula Zahn talk show, Ridge said that he did not issue those alerts. Rather, he said, those alerts came from his superiors (the only ones superior to Ridge were W. Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney (maybe the Department of Justice). So, phony alerts were issued to make us lose faith in God and follow the path of Satan.

How does one identify Satan? How does one know that they are following Satan? That's easy....follow the blood trail. Look at the killing, the torturing, the vast expense, the environmental damage (remember, that's God's environment), and the waste.

 

[Revoltingest]

“He has blinded their eyes and has made their hearts hard, so that they would not see with their eyes and understand with their hearts and turn around and I heal them.”

This is significant. It prescribes understanding with heart rather
than brain. The purpose is clear: Give the faithful a basis for
believing they alone have The Truth, ie, the feeling. It also gives
a basis for believing the heathen to be wrong, ie, a hard heart.
How is this known?
An old book said so.

It's elegant....no matter what the Christian believes, if it feels
true, it therefore is. Rational thought & evidence just harden
the heart against The Truth.

 

[Sunstone]

Guess that makes Jesus, his apostles, and the prophets silly.

Are you saying you actually believe the worst elements of the Bible make some of the best look silly?

 

[McBell]

Why does the world lack faith?

Asked and answered all in the OP:

God prevents them from having that faith

So the question now is: Why do so many people think they know better than the very deity they choose to "follow"?

 

[ppp]

I think it matters because I would be willing to take a bit of time with it, if the person is not convinced otherwise. A man convinced against his own will, is of the same mind still... especially here on RF.

My mind has been changed to several positions that I was originally convinced were false. And reciprocally, I have changed the minds of others from similar states. On topics both trivial and significant.

So, when people refuse to present their position merely because I am convinced that they are wrong, I see that as a copout.

 

[SigurdReginson]

I think we all choose whether to accept something or not. For example, something may be hard for us to accept, but we choose to accept it, or reject it.

Maybe you could go more deeply into your example for me.

Tell me a specific situation where someone would accept a belief based on choice without the influence of being convinced first.

Like... Would you just out of the blue choose to believe that Thor was a true god, and not Jehovah? No proof, no evidence. Would you choose to follow Thor just because?

I don't know about you, but I would need some serious convincing before I could accept that Thor was even real to begin with... Without that, there is no choice. Even with that, there's no choice, because then I would be convinced enough to accept it.