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Featured Faithless a Choice?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by nPeace, Dec 31, 2020.

  1. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Why does the world lack faith? Is it because there is lack of evidence, hence disbelief?
    According to the Bible, No. This is not the case. To the contrary.

    There is a huge amount of clear evidence, and many do believe. However, the Bible highlighted the reasons for the lack of faith - the faithless.
    It said... "The reason why they were not able to believe is that again Isaiah said: “He has blinded their eyes and has made their hearts hard, so that they would not see with their eyes and understand with their hearts and turn around and I heal them.” Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory, and he spoke about him. All the same, many even of the rulers actually put faith in him, but they would not acknowledge him because of the Pharisees, so that they would not be expelled from the synagogue; for they loved the glory of men even more than the glory of God." - John 12:39-43.

    So the reasons the Bible gave are, 1) God prevents them from having that faith; 2) They fear men, because they prefer glory from men.
    In other words, God leaves people in a spiritually blind state, because they don't want to accept, or they don't want to face rejection and ridicule from the faithless, but want to receive praise from them.

    Why would God, not rather open their eyes though. Does he not want to save them?
    The simple answer is given at 2 Thessalonians 2:11, 12... That is why God lets a deluding influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie, in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.

    According to the Bible, the simple answer is... it's what they choose.
    Do they want to be faithless? Is that what the Bible is saying? Evidently, in a way, yes.
    A person may believe something but they may not want to believe it, for their own personal reasons.
    For example, the text above states one reason. The text quoted earlier gave another, when it said, they love the glory of men, and they feared rejection.

    Is God fair in letting people choose even though it results in the person's harm, rather than their benefit?
    I'm glad I can make a free choice, and I am sure Atheists, and agnostics are equally happy that they can freely choose what they want to accept.

    So whether one has faith or not, is actually up to an individual. It a personal choice.
    Thoughts?
     
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  2. Conscious thoughts

    Conscious thoughts Veteran Member

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    I find you OP to be very good. And Even you speak only about what the bible says, i agree with how you frame it. Same can be used in any form of spiritual faith.

    Faith only arise when we truly study the teaching and begin to use it in our daily life. It awakens something from within us.
     
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  3. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Faith is from God. Hence why Jesus told his followers to ask the father for it.

    When we incline our heart to God, he opens our heart, and guides us to truths being revealed in us from God's word.

    When we reject God's word, we sever that line of communication.
     
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  4. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    There have always been those who will question the need for religious faith and the implementation of religious faith. In the past it has been few disenters for various reasons, including execution of non believers.

    In more modern times the rate of dissatisfaction with religion as an answer to the unknown has increased dramatically. The reason it's losing popularity i think are two fold.
    First science is providing many of the answers to the unknown, filling the gaps in knowledge traditionally filled with a god.
    Secondly the internet provides instant access to knowledge and data never before accessible. The questioning mind devours the information and is free to make uts choice without (much) fear of reprisal or death for choosing to discard faith in religion
     
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  5. Altfish

    Altfish Veteran Member

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    May I add a third reason?

    Too many churches pinning their masts to political parties against the teachings of their holy scripts.
     
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  6. Altfish

    Altfish Veteran Member

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    Most of your OP has been adequately answered elsewhere.

    Firstly, why do you believe quoting your holy book will help a discussion? If I, as an atheist, quoted Sam Harris would it impress you?

    The reasons for my disbelief are many: -
    Lack of evidence
    Hypocrisy
    Lack of compassion for the like of homosexuals and pregnant women
    Involvement with politics
    9/11 and abortion clinic attacks

    I could go on...
     
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  7. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
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    Biblical 'reasons' are so silly, aren't they? Transparently agenda-driven. Reading the Bible in reference to non-believers is kin to asking a Ford salesman his opinion of the Toyota salesman. Same vulgar level.

    The Bible has some truly insightful passages in it. Wish its treatment of atheism and non-belief rose above the level of mudslinging.

    Does anyone recall the name of the Dutch theologian who said, "Atheists are our natural allies because they ask the right questions"? I recall the quote but not the author.
     
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  8. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
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    I'm quite sorry, sir, but we must return your reason to you unopened and unexamined. You see, it's not to be found in our Bible. Not to be found in our box. And we strive so hard to think within the confines of our box.
     
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  9. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    When many folks speak of faith, what they mean is 'my faith'. Although folks of other religions may have loads of faith, they're still considered non-believers, by those from within a box.

    They've never read the Christian book. They don't believe in Jesus. But if you spend a day with them, you'll leave knowing they're people of faith.
     
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  10. pearl

    pearl Well-Known Member

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    "Atheists are our natural allies, because they ask the right questions." -- Miskotte (Dutch Protestant Theologian).

    Our faith is not 'in' a religion, nor a 'book'. As Heschel puts it;
    -Faith in God is a response to God's question; "Where ART Thou?" Faith is man's search for God , God's search for man.

    "We must not equate the act of faith with its expression. The expression of faith is an affirmation of truth, a definite judgement, a conviction, while faith itself is an event, something that happens rather than something that is stored away: it is a moment in which the soul of man communes with the glory of God."
     
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  11. Kooky

    Kooky Freedom from Sanity

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    I once found a story of a Rabbi, who said:

    "Sometimes we who believe, believe too much. We see the cruelty, the suffering, the injustice in the world and we say: ‘This is the will of God.’ We accept what we should not accept. That is when God sends us atheists to remind us that what passes for religion is not always religion. Sometimes what we accept in the name of God is what we should be fighting against in the name of God."
     
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  12. Father Heathen

    Father Heathen Veteran Member

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    :toilet:
     
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  13. joe1776

    joe1776 Well-Known Member

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    Your argument will be found persuasive only by people who already agree with you. What's the point in making it?
     
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  14. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    The forum rules do not allow me to express what I truly think of your insulting post.

    Let's just say your arguments are... rectally sourced.
     
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  15. ratiocinator

    ratiocinator Lightly seared on the reality grill.

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    Yes (in my case anyway).

    Where's the evidence that the bible is right?

    I can't just choose to find something convincing when I don't (or vice versa) - it really isn't a choice.
     
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  16. SigurdReginson

    SigurdReginson Grēne Mann
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    Have you ever chosen to be convinced of something?

    I don't know about you, but I can only believe something if I find it more convincing than the other options based on my personal standards and understanding. Now, if I change my standards or understanding, then I can be convinced of many different things.

    Choice has no part in it.
     
  17. SigurdReginson

    SigurdReginson Grēne Mann
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    You just need to choose to agree with them, and then it'll be persuasive.
     
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  18. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
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    Thanks, PCarl! I appreciate it.

    I think it's easy to see that Miskotte has a point. In nearly every field, the surest path to a deeper, richer understanding of the subject is to ask relevant, out-of-the-box questions. In practice, you can see the consequences of avoiding that path simply enough. Merely study the views of someone who avoids or too easily dismisses such questions. Their religiosity is almost always relatively shallow, superficial.
     
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  19. pearl

    pearl Well-Known Member

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    Exactly, and ironically, often through religion, ignorance and arrogance, God gets an undeserved bad rap.
     
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  20. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    There actually is a huge amount of very concrete evidence for so much that plainly
    shows that so much of the Bible is fable,
    but those with self - indulgent "faith" close eyes, ears and mind.

    Self indulgent because they choose it to please themselves. They think they know bettervthsn every scientist on earth.
    And they think they know better than millions of educated Christians who take a mature, intelligent, and frankly, sanecapprosch to faith in the Bible.
    They know that the fabulous nature of such
    tales as Noah's ark and Exodus have nothing to
    do with God. THE ONE WH DID THOSE THINGS DOES NIT EXIDT.

    Lesser faith and intellect prefers the false God
    they choose, the one that exists only in their egotistical heads.
     
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