Faith & War

[Rival]

As opposed to what other kind of opinion? Moral? Ethical?

Some people's faith may have a written code of war, but they may disagree with it. I was wondering if there are any posters who may even take issue with their own religion's war code. But many religions also have war-codes that many folks may find archaic or too aggressive or too passive. You may have a god which tells you to go to war and you may not understand why or even agree with it.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Some people's faith may have a written code of war, but they may disagree with it. I was wondering if there are any posters who may even take issue with their own religion's war code. But many religions also have war-codes that many folks may find archaic or too aggressive or too passive. You may have a god which tells you to go to war and you may not understand why or even agree with it.

I struggle to understand why one would follow a religion whose principles they disagree with. Sure, I get indoctrination, but I struggle with the idea that someone is so paralyzed by the ideas posited by Pascal's Wager that they won't step away from a religion that goes against their personal morals and ethics? Wouldn't their god know that they disagree, thus negating the reason to follow their religion to begin with?

 

[Rival]

I struggle to understand why one would follow a religion whose principles they disagree with. Sure, I get indoctrination, but I struggle with the idea that someone is so paralyzed by the ideas posited by Pascal's Wager that they won't step away from a religion that goes against their personal morals and ethics? Wouldn't their god know that they disagree, thus negating the reason to follow their religion to begin with?

There may be plenty of Catholics who disagree with the Catholic Just War theory. They can absolutely be Catholics, believe all the theology and everything else, but take issue with their war criteria. He may be a pacifist and believe Jesus was.

 

[robocop (actually)]

What, in your religious opinion, is a justification for war? What does your religion say about it, has it any prescribed 'rules' so to speak for when you should go to war, who can be killed, keeping slaves, who is eligible to fight &c.? What is your opinion? Are you warlike or a pacifist?

This is in debates so feel free to tell other posters why their reasons suck and yours are obviously better.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has lots of verses about war in the Book of Mormon. I've studied lots of religions' position. But when I was Raelian, I thought I should be against killing anyone ever. I still haven't gotten over that. In the Book of Mormon there was a group afraid for their souls who refused to fight and pity stopped their total destruction.

 

[Etritonakin]

What, in your religious opinion, is a justification for war? What does your religion say about it, has it any prescribed 'rules' so to speak for when you should go to war, who can be killed, keeping slaves, who is eligible to fight &c.? What is your opinion? Are you warlike or a pacifist?

This is in debates so feel free to tell other posters why their reasons suck and yours are obviously better.

Though many who believe in the God of the bible do not understand this....
When God first began working with Israel, he would drive nations out from before them without them having to wage war....
(Josh 24:12 And I sent the hornet before you, which drave them out from before you, even the two kings of the Amorites; but not with thy sword, nor with thy bow.)
It was only after Israel resisted God that he gave them over to war.
Afterward, Israel did war. HOWEVER, they warred EXACTLY AS they were TOLD to war and only WHEN they were told to war by God.
When they did otherwise, bad things happened to them.
When ACTUALLY and DIRECTLY ordered by God to do anything, God is therefore responsible.
Otherwise, THEY were responsible.

God can make them alive again and you can't -so he should handle that stuff.

Nations WILL war -and God said he would plead with all flesh by the sword -but that is not to say people are not responsible for their decisions and what they do -whether they make any attempt at keeping the commandment or "live by the sword", etc...

Some believe they act according to the will of God when they war -but God will address that with them.

There are also a differences between proactive war, defense (keeping a home "safe" -even a very big one), the mindset of individual soldiers vs the mindset of superiors, governments, etc. -unnecessary things being done, necessary things being done in the wrong manner, etc. -so it is an extremely complex issue.

(Luke 3:14And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages.)
[do not kill, bear false witness or covet]

It is made much more simple by everyone sincerely keeping the commandments about God and killing, etc. -and civilians acting honorably and righteously in general -at which point God would consider an individual or nation's welfare (getting everyone to do that might be a tall order, however) -otherwise, exactly what is written in biblical prophecy will happen -just as it always has.

Jer 18:7At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. 9And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; 10If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

Here is a pronouncement which doesn't even mention any specific religious practice -just basic right and wrong.... for which God will allow war, etc... and which would likely specifically not come to pass if those general things were addressed....

Isaiah 10
1Woe unto them that decree unrighteous decrees, and that write grievousness which they have prescribed;
2To turn aside the needy from judgment, and to take away the right from the poor of my people, that widows may be their prey, and that they may rob the fatherless!
3And what will ye do in the day of visitation, and in the desolation which shall come from far? to whom will ye flee for help? and where will ye leave your glory?
4Without me they shall bow down under the prisoners, and they shall fall under the slain. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.

 

[Deeje]

Some people's faith may have a written code of war, but they may disagree with it. I was wondering if there are any posters who may even take issue with their own religion's war code. But many religions also have war-codes that many folks may find archaic or too aggressive or too passive. You may have a god which tells you to go to war and you may not understand why or even agree with it.

It's an interesting question because the the nation of Israel had God's sanction for some wars that they fought and he granted them victory, but only if they relied on him, rather than themselves. If Israel entered into a conflict that God did not sanction, they were defeated.

There is no carry over into Christianity. Nothing Jesus taught would justify bloodshed. It doesn't rule out self-defence as long as it did not result in the death of an assailant. In ancient Israel, someone who took a life even accidentally was still accountable.

Jesus said we were to "love our enemies" and to 'pray for our persecutors'.....this is in contrast to 'turning the other cheek' because a slap in that instance, was intended as an insult, rather than a threat to ones life.

Jesus also told us to be "no part of the world" so if our nation went to war, no Christian should be found in the military ready to kill an enemy because Christians cannot do that. Politics and war are a filthy part of satan's world and we could never be found guiltless for taking innocent human life if we participated in either. If you vote people into government, then you have to accept responsibility for what they do in office.

Jesus never taught his disciples to interfere in politics, which was amazing considering the political climate of the day and the fact that the Jews were chafing under Roman domination. Many of the Jews were in fact, planning a revolt. When Jerusalem fell, none of Jesus' disciples were there.....they had been told to leave the city and surrounding areas and flee to the mountains years before it happened.

Christian neutrality is what we see Jesus' disciples practicing in the first century.....when they were arrested, they did not fight with the authorities but went quietly to prison and waited on God to do whatever he needed to do in order for them to keep preaching.

A Christian's only weapons are spiritual, not carnal. (2 Corinthians 10:3-4; Ephesians 6:12-13)
So, according to my beliefs, a Christian would therefore take a bullet for someone, but he would never fire one.

 

[Revoltingest]

Your reasons suck since you say other posters can tell you they do but you only actually gave one reason.

Does preference even rise to the level of a reason?
It might suck even more than you thought.

 

[Revoltingest]

Self defense is one of my justifications.

Another is by analogy. Let's say I'm walking down the street and see an elderly woman being attacked by a young male. I stop the attacker by force. This to me is justifiable violence. By analogy, if a small nation is attacked by a bigger one and asks for help, I could decide they were worthy of help and come to their defense.

The one going to war should do it with no selfish motive but solely to defend itself or another nations.

Of course, in real life, we live in shades of grey, so due care needs to be taken before making a decision to go to war.

https://www.ambppct.org/Book_Files/Discourses Vol I.pdf

Are you becoming me?
But a good selfish motive is reciprocation.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Does preference even rise to the level of a reason?
It might suck even more than you thought.

You said "reasons." You only posted one. I curled up on my bed under a blanket and cried the entire afternoon.

 

[Revoltingest]

You said "reasons." You only posted one. I curled up on my bed under a blanket and cried the entire afternoon.

I didn't even post one.

 

[SalixIncendium]

I didn't even post one.

There goes any hope I had for sleep tonight.

 

[Revoltingest]

There goes any hope I had for sleep tonight.

Post on RF, & I'll bore you to sleep.

 

[sun rise]

Are you becoming me?
But a good selfish motive is reciprocation.

Heaven forbid that I'm becoming you. Clearly you are becoming me

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Unless you're defending yourself from an invading force or abusive tyrant, your reasons for war suck.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Post on RF, & I'll bore you to sleep.

They're just being polite when they tell you that. You fight and argue with a bear all day, you smell like it, and no one can sleep while you're around.

 

[Dawnofhope]

What, in your religious opinion, is a justification for war? What does your religion say about it, has it any prescribed 'rules' so to speak for when you should go to war, who can be killed, keeping slaves, who is eligible to fight &c.? What is your opinion? Are you warlike or a pacifist?

This is in debates so feel free to tell other posters why their reasons suck and yours are obviously better.

Baha'is promote peace, not war....or should do.

Baha'u'llah addressed the Kings (it was the 19th century) and rulers of the world calling for a world embracing assembly where there would be close international cooperation. If one king should arise against another then all the others should oppose him.

"The time must come...when the imperative necessity for the holding of a vast, an all-embracing assemblage of men will be universally realized. The rulers and kings of the earth must needs attend it, and, participating in its deliberations, must consider such ways and means as will lay the foundations of the world's Great Peace among men...Should any king take up arms against another, all should unitedly arise and prevent him."
World Order of Baha'u'llah

 

[Revoltingest]

Heaven forbid that I'm becoming you. Clearly you are becoming me

We need an <Oh, the horror!> frubal.

 

[Revoltingest]

They're just being polite when they tell you that. You fight and argue with a bear all day, you smell like it, and no one can sleep while you're around.

I know better.
Me posts soothe ruffled feathers & raised hackles.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

What, in your religious opinion, is a justification for war? What does your religion say about it, has it any prescribed 'rules' so to speak for when you should go to war, who can be killed, keeping slaves, who is eligible to fight &c.? What is your opinion? Are you warlike or a pacifist?

A cultural eco-system without war is one to try and aim for, and religion probably can be an important tool in attaining that. Thus far, I'm not really sure it has been. I think a primary reason might be that our wisdom teachers who 'connect to the spirit world' are often ossified in the iron age. If we all can move on from that in all our religions, we inversely stand a better chance to manipulate our existential foundation into solidity, via the introduction of dynamism into general theology.

I sort of work at the challenge of thinking about / or developing a sort of neo-pagan outlook at times. Looking at the theological pilot light of my particular pagan ancestors, the celts / germans, they are often seen as failed cultures in terms of coming up with serviceable idiosyncratic religious structures. Development to that end being obviously taken offline, we are often left with a rather stark picture of iron age peoples who seemed to put war in particular at a premium - and my solution to this problem is that I propose we view all of that as belonging strictly to the iron age. We don't need to collect the heads of enemies to use as currency like the celts did, and similarly valhalla might be dismissed for heofen. All of that can be acknowledged to have existed, but innovatively unlike the majority of other cultures it need not be ossified into theology. I think this is what will give the neo-pagans the best chance to grow in the next few centuries, (and I predict they will become a majority by the end of my lifetime) and the fact is that they often do actually incorporate dynamism and innovation more than just about everyone else.

 

[syo]

What, in your religious opinion, is a justification for war? What does your religion say about it, has it any prescribed 'rules' so to speak for when you should go to war, who can be killed, keeping slaves, who is eligible to fight &c.? What is your opinion? Are you warlike or a pacifist?

This is in debates so feel free to tell other posters why their reasons suck and yours are obviously better.

nothing justifies massacre. nothing justifies slavery.