Extreme violence in the bible interpretation?

[ChristineM]

No, they weren't. They were written to help the readers understand the inexplicable power of 'God'

Bull, they were written to give power to the writers and religious leaders

That crap came much later.

Nope, religion has been used to control since day one

Humans will abuse anything they can get hold of to control and manipulate each other to their own advantage,

Bingo

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

It's not all about you or what you're interested in. The people who created and wrote those stories used them in the way they found to be most righteous and useful. Some people still find them to be so; maybe for different reasons or through a different interpretation. I've, personally, never found the Star Wars stories of any particular interest to me, or of any particular ideological use. But a lot of other people do.

I agree about Star Wars. And I don't consider it substantially different from biblical mythology. I also don't go to Star Wars to learn about anything.

I find this method of teaching to be extremely ineffective for mature adults. These stories are for children or people with the sophistication of children, like Aesop's fables. If I want to teach you that pranking people can backfire, I'd tell you that, and maybe give you an example out of the news, but if you were three years old, I'd tell you the story of the boy who cried wolf, maybe read from a book with lots of colorful drawings.

My point is that people like to laud these stories as having value today. To whom? What value?

And we are still those people. Except for the effectiveness of our weaponry, not much has changed.

Disagree. You can see human cultural evolution just by comparing the two testaments of the Bible. Man went from praising a jealous, angry, warrior god to a gentler, more civilized god in the interim, reflecting their values. Man always invents the god that wants what he wants.

Why read anything at all? Why not just remain an ignoramus all your life? Then you can be as right are you want, and never know otherwise.

Why read anything at all is your response to why read mythology? I guess you don't have an answer. Neither do I. It was a rhetorical question, anyway.

I don't recall if it was this thread or another in which I reported watching a TV preacher for about 5 minutes recently when his face appeared upon turning it on. He was reading about Elijah from the book of Kings. This is from Wiki, and summarizes the scriptures he read:

"1 Kings 17 is the chapter in which Elijah is first mentioned by name in the Bible. It states that he is a Tishbite from Gilead, who visited King Ahab to give him a message from God that there would be no rain in the land until he declared it (v1). In order to avoid the wrath of the king, God told Elijah to hide by the Brook Cherith where he was fed bread and meat by ravens sent from God (vv2-6). After a while, due to the drought, the brook dried up so God told Elijah to go to the town of Sarepta and to seek out a widow that would find him water and food (vv.7-9). Elijah learns that the widow has a son and between them they only have enough flour and oil for one more meal before they die. Despite this, the widow helps Elijah (vv11-14). Because she did this God caused the flour and the oil never to run out (vv15-16). "[The widow had] a handful of meal in a barrel, and a little oil in a cruse ... and the barrel of meal wasted not, neither did the cruse of oil fail". (King James Version)."

He spoke as if there was profound wisdom here and a valuable lesson to be learned. Really? This woman had little, but she gave anyway, and God rewarded her disproportionately. What a great lesson, and what a great way to teach it. Just kidding. It was like watching Mr. Roger's Neighborhood, and at the hour I was watching it, I doubt that too many children were watching.

I wonder how the half hour ended? I didn't stick around to find out why he wanted to teach and praise this story, but I had a suspicion. Reminded me of a story I was read as a child about a woman who baked pies and set them in a window. Then a beggar went by. She was stingy with her pies, but learned a valuable lesson about sharing. I don't think I learned much about sharing from that, either, except that people thought it was a good thing to do. Maybe I went to school and gave somebody half of my Twinkie in the hopes that I would get a lot more Twinkies somehow.

Anyway, if some people find value there, great, but I wouldn't send anybody to myths or scripture. I didn't with my children, either. They were read children's books, but only as entertainment and for experience with language and vocabulary. When I thought that they were old enough to learn, I'd instructing them, as in, "Don't hit your sister." It was never followed by the story of the kid who hit her little sister and karma got her for it. We would talk about how that feels to her sister, how it would feel to her, and why she should care.

 

[Lain]

Ok, you interpret how you feel good about i interpreting

Deuteronomy i see as god giving the instruction “When the Lord delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the males …. As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves.”.
.

Has nothing to do with how I feel. You can't steal what you own, you can't murder someone you should justly kill, and rape I have no idea where that even comes into play.

 

[PureX]

I agree about Star Wars. And I don't consider it substantially different from biblical mythology. I also don't go to Star Wars to learn about anything.

I find this method of teaching to be extremely ineffective for mature adults.

It's not generally a "method of teaching" at all. Mythology is primarily a method of cultural expression. The expression of ideals and beliefs that the culture already holds. WE look at ancient myths as a "teaching tool" because we use it to try and understand the cultures of the past that created these myths. But the myths were not created in their time to "teach us" about them. They were created in their time as a means of expressing their culture in their own time.

Likewise, Star Wars is not intended to teach people of the future about our culture. Though the Star Wars mythology may be used for that purpose, someday. The reason WE created it was to express the ideals that we hold to be valuable within and among ourselves.

My point is that people like to laud these stories as having value today. To whom? What value?

You have to ask them if you want to know. We are all free to decide for ourselves what any story means to us, and whether or not we find the story valuable. I really don't understand why you want to try and stand in judgment of that. All I'm suggesting is that when we read these mythical stories, that we understand that this is what they are. That they are expressions of a culture that we don't live in or rightly understand. So that these stories, TO US, will be something quite different from what they were to the people that made them.

Disagree. You can see human cultural evolution just by comparing the two testaments of the Bible. Man went from praising a jealous, angry, warrior god to a gentler, more civilized god in the interim, reflecting their values. Man always invents the god that wants what he wants.

Certainly the culture's theology evolved over time. As they do all over the world. But you are making some very broad assumptions about a culture that you actually know VERY little about, based on your projecting your own current cultural standards onto their ancient mythical stories.

Anyway, if some people find value there, great, but I wouldn't send anybody to myths or scripture. I didn't with my children, either. They were read children's books, but only as entertainment and for experience with language and vocabulary. When I thought that they were old enough to learn, I'd instructing them, as in, "Don't hit your sister." It was never followed by the story of the kid who hit her little sister and karma got her for it. We would talk about how that feels to her sister, how it would feel to her, and why she should care.

I've found a couple of those biblical stories very useful in conveying some modern wisdom, partly because most people know of them, so they provide a common ground from which to discuss, and partly because they happen to lend themselves to a more contemporary interpretation, even though that may not have been their original intent. Stories are very useful tools for conveying and expressing information. But like the words they're made up of, they require a mutually understood context, and an open mind.

 

[ChristineM]

Has nothing to do with how I feel. You can't steal what you own, you can't murder someone you should justly kill, and rape I have no idea where that even comes into play.

What justly kill?. God told me to do is down to schizophrenia. Killing people, is murder, taking their land is theft. And do you really think a woman who has just seen her husband killed will willingly toddle off with her husband killer? Really

 

[Lain]

What justly kill?. God told me to do is down to schizophrenia. Killing people, is murder, taking their land is theft. And do you really think a woman who has just seen her husband killed will willingly toddle off with her husband killer? Really

Not sure what schizophrenia has to do with anything. We disagree on the definition of murder simply, to me for instance to kill in self-defense is not murder, or to kill in self-defense of a nation (for instance a just war) is also not murder. I disagree that it was their land so it's not theft, neither were any of the things they were using. Nothing in that quoted passage mentioned them being willing to go and neither did it mention them being raped.

 

[robocop (actually)]

After leaving the church i read the KJV from cover to cover and was shocked at the violence it contains. It explained a lot about Christianity to me.

It appears the bible overall is considi more violent than the Qur'an.
Study finds Bible angrier, more violent than Quran

I would consider the little kid test. See if a little kid likes the stories of the Bible.

 

[ChristineM]

Not sure what schizophrenia has to do with anything. We disagree on the definition of murder simply, to me for instance to kill in self-defense is not murder, or to kill in self-defense of a nation (for instance a just war) is also not murder. I disagree that it was their land so it's not theft, neither were any of the things they were using. Nothing in that quoted passage mentioned them being willing to go and neither did it mention them being raped.

we are not taking self defense we are talking the bible and the atrosities carried out with gods instruction.

 

[ChristineM]

I would consider the little kid test. See if a little kid likes the stories of the Bible.

I would consider actually understand what is written rather then selective stories

 

[Lain]

we are not taking self defense we are talking the bible and the atrosities carried out with gods instruction.

I see nothing God commanded as an "atrocity," at least not all in the same sense. Death of course is bad, and even the death of a tree is an atrocity to me, but people usually mean morally evil and in that I would disagree.

 

[ChristineM]

I see nothing God commanded as an "atrocity," at least not all in the same sense. Death of course is bad, and even the death of a tree is an atrocity to me, but people usually mean morally evil and in that I would disagree.

That is your interpretation. If makes you feel comfortable.

 

[Lain]

That is your interpretation. If makes you feel comfortable.

It doesn't make me feel anything really, which is good, for to me feelings are often evil and deception, but it is true enough that is my interpretation.

 

[metis]

IMO, to believe that the Bible, or any other scriptures, are inerrant and objective is really a jump of faith that simply is unwarranted.

 

[PureX]

IMO, to believe that the Bible, or any other scriptures, are inerrant and objective is really a jump of faith that simply is unwarranted.

I don't even think the creators of those stories intended them to be read that way! That's a strange aberration of more modern times. Since the advent of philosophical relativism several centuries go, there has been a faction of human society that desperately wants to lay claim to some unassailable absolute. Some of them decided to turn their Bibles into the "inerrant word of God" and thereby gained their coveted unassailable absolute.

 

[PruePhillip]

I have just finished reading Judges trying to learn about this religion
And I feel like I've been through the wringer emotionally with this episode at the end, what is the reason and interpretation ?
Does god still behave like this?

What about other really evil events like rape?

I suggest if you want to learn about Christianity you start with reading the Gospels,
Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. It's not about symbols from the Bronze Age but what
is required from you.

 

[Colt]

I have just finished reading Judges trying to learn about this religion
And I feel like I've been through the wringer emotionally with this episode at the end, what is the reason and interpretation ?
Does god still behave like this?

What about other really evil events like rape?

That was human behavior attributed to God. The Gods of primitive man were little more than shadows of themselves.

 

[Clara Tea]

I have just finished reading Judges trying to learn about this religion
And I feel like I've been through the wringer emotionally with this episode at the end, what is the reason and interpretation ?
Does god still behave like this?

What about other really evil events like rape?

If you keep asserting that God is love and peace, you might eventually believe it.

But, until you brainwash yourself into believing lies, worry that you might die and be beside this God in heaven for all eternity (or until he tires of you).

 

[Clara Tea]

That was human behavior attributed to God. The Gods of primitive man were little more than shadows of themselves.

Perhaps this is what is meant by "man is made in God's image?"

Or did they mean that all races of earth were the same race as God?

 

[Clara Tea]

No, they weren't. They were written to help the readers understand the inexplicable power of 'God' as a singular meta-entity (as opposed to the many weaker demigods of the other religions of the day. "Fear of God" meant more to those people than just being afraid. It meant understanding that they were not in control of their own fate.
That crap came much later. The original use of those stories were as an impetus for contemplation, discussion, and debate, within small groups of men. The point was not to derive "sacred lessons" from the stories, but to keep themselves mindful of the inexplicable nature and power of their "living God". This was not a God housed in some temple that you went to offering goodies in exchange for good fortune. (As were all the other gods of the day.) This was a God that you had to live with every day, everywhere, and in every circumstance of your life. That's what those stories were originally meant to promote: that constant God awareness.

Humans will abuse anything they can get hold of to control and manipulate each other to their own advantage, and religions are no exception. Same as with politics, and commerce, and art and science. It's just in our nature. But we still need to engage in religion, politics, commerce, art and science as a species. And these endeavors are not in themselves the problem. WE are the problem.

I have met the enemy, and he is us.

We know how to do good things (the bible tells us), but we seldom follow every word of it.

One of the greatest problems is inaction while we know that wrongs are being done....sitting back while Hitler murdered and tortured, for example.

 

[Clara Tea]

Try to connect back? Why? Do you see relevance here?

If these were pressing questions that could be answered by considering myths, why these? Why read this book for stories to view as life lessons? There are many other choices. Did Odin judge fairly? Was Tiamat right or wrong when she mated, "with Abzu, the god of the groundwater, to produce younger gods"? Was Cercyon right to challenge "passers-by to a wrestling match, and, when he had beaten them, kill them"? Was the fox wrong to resent the grapes he couldn't reach? Should the little boy have cried wolf given the consequences? Discuss.

Why read this book at all if that's all it's stories are?



Once again, so why read them? I have no interest in how frightened others want me to be, and frankly, find nothing frightening or even interesting there. A brutal, primitive, warlike people created a god in their own image, that they believed sanctioned their choices because it was as violent as they were. That's what these stories actually tell us - what their authors respected and worried about.



Exactly. So why read them in preference to say song lyrics, which you can also interpret however you want (warning: don't take life lessons from this - it actually means nothing):

Ophelia, she's 'neath the window for her I feel so afraid
On her twenty-second birthday she already is an old maid
To her, death is quite romantic she wears an iron vest
Her profession's her religion, her sin is her lifelessness
And though her eyes are fixed upon Noah's great rainbow
She spends her time peeking into Desolation Row

No wonder she's an old maid, she wears an iron vest. The fox was right...unobtainable grapes are probably not worth reaching.