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Extreme violence in the bible interpretation?

I have just finished reading Judges trying to learn about this religion :)
And I feel like I've been through the wringer emotionally with this episode at the end, what is the reason and interpretation ?
Does god still behave like this?

What about other really evil events like rape?
 

Lain

Well-Known Member
I have just finished reading Judges trying to learn about this religion :)
And I feel like I've been through the wringer emotionally with this episode at the end, what is the reason and interpretation ?
Does god still behave like this?

What about other really evil events like rape?

Does God behave like what? Judges is in general about the degradation Israel had fallen into at the time, the reason for their evil being often repeated at the end of an account, "every man did that which was right in his own sight."
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
I have just finished reading Judges trying to learn about this religion :)
And I feel like I've been through the wringer emotionally with this episode at the end, what is the reason and interpretation ?
Does god still behave like this?

What about other really evil events like rape?
Judges is not in the Pentateuch, so it is a book which has stories which you parse using your understanding of the law. You don't ask modern questions such as "Did this happen." No. Whether it happened or not is irrelevant to the author. The author writes it for your sake to guide you to think about certain matters in the law or in your life or to perhaps pass on an unsolved mystery to you. What you should ask instead of "Did this happen?" is "What does the law say about this?" and "If this ever happens what should I do according to the law and the teachings?"

Consider the story of Sampson and his riddles, his strange behavior and his riddles. To someone studying morality in the law Sampson's great strength is irrelevant and will fade one day, but the law will continue to be all important. What does the story have to do with the Pentateuch and you? That is what matters, and that is what the author is writing it for. It is for you, as if the author were sitting with you and trying to get you to think. They don't know who you are, but they are trying to connect with you. Try to connect back.

Ask things like: Do the judges judge fairly? Is the L-RD right or wrong to let Israel slip into this chaos? Should Sampson have been kicked out for doing thus and such?
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
I have just finished reading Judges trying to learn about this religion :)
And I feel like I've been through the wringer emotionally with this episode at the end, what is the reason and interpretation ?
Does god still behave like this?

What about other really evil events like rape?

After leaving the church i read the KJV from cover to cover and was shocked at the violence it contains. It explained a lot about Christianity to me.

It appears the bible overall is considi more violent than the Qur'an.
Study finds Bible angrier, more violent than Quran
 

PureX

Veteran Member
I have just finished reading Judges trying to learn about this religion :)
And I feel like I've been through the wringer emotionally with this episode at the end, what is the reason and interpretation ?
Does god still behave like this?

What about other really evil events like rape?
You are reading STORIES written by humans with the intention of inspiring fear and awe and humility toward their God. (Toward the god-ideal as they understood it.) You are not reading a history of God. You are only reading a literary depiction of God. One that intends you to be frightened and awed and consternated.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
You are reading STORIES written by humans with the intention of inspiring fear and awe and humility toward their God. (Toward the god-ideal as they understood it.) You are not reading a history of God. You are only reading a literary depiction of God. One that intends you to be frightened and awed and consternated.

If it actually read that way then fine, but it doesn't. The book is specific that the Abrahamic god gave permission to murder, rape, steal, keep slaves etc.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
If it actually read that way then fine, but it doesn't. The book is specific that the Abrahamic god gave permission to murder, rape, steal, keep slaves etc.
You can choose to interpret the stories however you want. And so can anyone else. You want to judge and condemn God because you're angry about what some fools have done in God's name; so that's how you choose to read the stories. But that wasn't why the stories were written, and enabling those fools was not the writer's intention.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
You can choose to interpret the stories however you want. And so can anyone else. You want to judge and condemn God because you're angry about what some fools have done in God's name; so that's how you choose to read the stories. But that wasn't why the stories were written, and enabling those fools was not the writer's intention.


I remind you. I READ the bible... I have now read 3. No anger involved despite your dig. And that is the key, twading it as a book rather than selected sections with whatever goodly message the reader wants to imply.

The stories were written to scare people into following the bible. The writers knew what they were doing and what message they wanted it to give. I.e. follow us or god will instruct us to kill you and your sons, take your land, take your wives and daughters as sex slaves.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
I don't see any of those three things there, but I suppose there are a multitude of definitions for those three words.

Ok, you interpret how you feel good about i interpreting

Deuteronomy i see as god giving the instruction “When the Lord delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the males …. As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves.”.
.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Consider the story of Sampson and his riddles, his strange behavior and his riddles. To someone studying morality in the law Sampson's great strength is irrelevant and will fade one day, but the law will continue to be all important. What does the story have to do with the Pentateuch and you? That is what matters, and that is what the author is writing it for. It is for you, as if the author were sitting with you and trying to get you to think. They don't know who you are, but they are trying to connect with you. Try to connect back. Ask things like: Do the judges judge fairly? Is the L-RD right or wrong to let Israel slip into this chaos? Should Sampson have been kicked out for doing thus and such?

Try to connect back? Why? Do you see relevance here?

If these were pressing questions that could be answered by considering myths, why these? Why read this book for stories to view as life lessons? There are many other choices. Did Odin judge fairly? Was Tiamat right or wrong when she mated, "with Abzu, the god of the groundwater, to produce younger gods"? Was Cercyon right to challenge "passers-by to a wrestling match, and, when he had beaten them, kill them"? Was the fox wrong to resent the grapes he couldn't reach? Should the little boy have cried wolf given the consequences? Discuss.

Why read this book at all if that's all it's stories are?

You are reading STORIES written by humans with the intention of inspiring fear and awe and humility toward their God. (Toward the god-ideal as they understood it.) You are not reading a history of God. You are only reading a literary depiction of God. One that intends you to be frightened and awed and consternated.

Once again, so why read them? I have no interest in how frightened others want me to be, and frankly, find nothing frightening or even interesting there. A brutal, primitive, warlike people created a god in their own image, that they believed sanctioned their choices because it was as violent as they were. That's what these stories actually tell us - what their authors respected and worried about.

You can choose to interpret the stories however you want. And so can anyone else.

Exactly. So why read them in preference to say song lyrics, which you can also interpret however you want (warning: don't take life lessons from this - it actually means nothing):

Ophelia, she's 'neath the window for her I feel so afraid
On her twenty-second birthday she already is an old maid
To her, death is quite romantic she wears an iron vest
Her profession's her religion, her sin is her lifelessness
And though her eyes are fixed upon Noah's great rainbow
She spends her time peeking into Desolation Row
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
Try to connect back? Why? Do you see relevance here?
Hello, Ain't! The thread starter already is trying to grasp a text and asking about it. I'm just explaining the context to them as I see it.

There are many other choices. Did Odin judge fairly? Was Tiamat right or wrong when she mated, "with Abzu, the god of the groundwater, to produce younger gods"? Was Cercyon right to challenge "passers-by to a wrestling match, and, when he had beaten them, kill them"?
You should expect atheistic perspectives from most Hebrew works. The Hebrews notoriously remake and parody the divine myths of hostile nations. Noah and Moses (from Genesis) are examples -- and very obvious ones if you can find out the original stories of Gilgamesh and Osiris. If there is a similarity in Judges to other myths its likely a parody of them: If you find a similarity to a story about Abzu then it is to disrespect Abzu. It would never be a simple copy or in any way an adoption or recognition of value of the myths held by an invader nation or raiding tribe. It wouldn't be a myth like a myth about Abzu. It would be logical, plodding, calculating, weighing the value of one action against another. Read Judges like you are a computer, like you are considering the foibles of lemmings. How can you get all of the lemmings across safely?

Why read this book at all if that's all it's stories are?
To me it seems like you're suggesting Judges is intended to be propaganda or believable myth. Is it the story of the supernaturally strong man or that his enemies try weaving his hair into a loom? Judges is a parable or a fable, not a myth, not propaganda, not history. It has what-ifs in it. In other words nobody actually dies. It is meant to be read by someone thoroughly versed in the law. My opinion.

If these were pressing questions that could be answered by considering myths, why these? Why read this book for stories to view as life lessons? There are many other choices.
No, not myths. It doesn't have the mythological status of a story about Odin. It has fables with a purpose. You don't read the story for life lessons. You read it to learn about the law and yourself, to consider scenarios and to ponder what the laws are for. What causes the great suffering in the story? This is the question. The law is the gravitas, not the story. The law is the mythology. It has a secret heart which the student tries through various means to reach. To other people who aren't interested in the law this book should be considered meaningless.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Once again, so why read them? I have no interest in how frightened others want me to be, and frankly, find nothing frightening or even interesting there.
It's not all about you or what you're interested in. The people who created and wrote those stories used them in the way they found to be most righteous and useful. Some people still find them to be so; maybe for different reasons or through a different interpretation. I've, personally, never found the Star Wars stories of any particular interest to me, or of any particular ideological use. But a lot of other people do.
A brutal, primitive, warlike people created a god in their own image, that they believed sanctioned their choices because it was as violent as they were. That's what these stories actually tell us - what their authors respected and worried about.
And we are still those people. Except for the effectiveness of our weaponry, not much has changed.
So why read them in preference to say song lyrics, which you can also interpret however you want
Why read anything at all? Why not just remain an ignoramus all your life? Then you can be as right are you want, and never know otherwise.
 

Shadow11

Member
The area was completely covered with warring nations constantly at battle - that's how things were at that time you can't compare it to today's world. That's what kings did take over other nations and there was no shortage of them. All nations wanted to destroy the Israelite and in the bible you can see nation after nation attacking them. It was a very violent time in human's existence. If you won a war God was with you if you lost God was angry with you.Comparing it to today and expecting them to act to today's standards is ridiculous.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
The stories were written to scare people into following the bible.
No, they weren't. They were written to help the readers understand the inexplicable power of 'God' as a singular meta-entity (as opposed to the many weaker demigods of the other religions of the day. "Fear of God" meant more to those people than just being afraid. It meant understanding that they were not in control of their own fate.
The writers knew what they were doing and what message they wanted it to give. I.e. follow us or god will instruct us to kill you and your sons, take your land, take your wives and daughters as sex slaves.
That crap came much later. The original use of those stories were as an impetus for contemplation, discussion, and debate, within small groups of men. The point was not to derive "sacred lessons" from the stories, but to keep themselves mindful of the inexplicable nature and power of their "living God". This was not a God housed in some temple that you went to offering goodies in exchange for good fortune. (As were all the other gods of the day.) This was a God that you had to live with every day, everywhere, and in every circumstance of your life. That's what those stories were originally meant to promote: that constant God awareness.

Humans will abuse anything they can get hold of to control and manipulate each other to their own advantage, and religions are no exception. Same as with politics, and commerce, and art and science. It's just in our nature. But we still need to engage in religion, politics, commerce, art and science as a species. And these endeavors are not in themselves the problem. WE are the problem.
 
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