IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Has anyone ever explained to you the logical fallacy known as the ad hominem attack?
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Exodus 16...Sabbath is tied to manna...it predates the 10 commandments
- Thread starter AdamjEdgar
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Ebionite
Well-Known Member
Paul's doctrine of original sin is based on his misrepresentation of David's sin, since David's sin did not involve dishonesty.
God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
Romans 3:4
Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done [this] evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, [and] be clear when thou judgest.
Psalms 51:4
AdamjEdgar
Active Member
Oh so now it's a morality excuse is it....an individual must be wrong because he demonstrates a sinful lack of morality?
Pray do tell...how would you explain the lack of morality in the murder of thousands of Palestinian children in Gaza right now? What did those children do that should deserve this punishment?
You want to talk morality, get off your high horse and actually look around at the reality of it on your TV set (or are you just going to claim this is all fabricated by the media?).
Morality arguments are for morons.
AdamjEdgar
Active Member
Y
David's sin did not involve dishonesty? Which sin might that be?
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
Involving Bathsheba and the death of Uriah the Hittite.
Because David did [that which was] right in the eyes of YHWH, and turned not aside from any [thing] that he commanded him all the days of his life, save only in the matter of Uriah the Hittite.
1 Kings 15:5
AdamjEdgar
Active Member
Stop playing games and address the issue...
Are you waiting for a messiah? How is that not seeking salvation?
AdamjEdgar
Active Member
You are joking right?
David asks for Uriah to be sent to the front line to be killed. Do you think that Uriah knew the real reason why? Would you not agree that it is blatantly obvious to us as readers that Uriah was lied too at the behest of the king and that the entire affair was exactly that...dishonest?
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
No. It was about taking Uriah's wife, not dishonesty.
And YHWH sent Nathan unto David. And he came unto him, and said unto him, There were two men in one city; the one rich, and the other poor.
The rich [man] had exceeding many flocks and herds:
But the poor [man] had nothing, save one little ewe lamb, which he had bought and nourished up: and it grew up together with him, and with his children; it did eat of his own meat, and drank of his own cup, and lay in his bosom, and was unto him as a daughter.
And there came a traveller unto the rich man, and he spared to take of his own flock and of his own herd, to dress for the wayfaring man that was come unto him; but took the poor man's lamb, and dressed it for the man that was come to him.
And David's anger was greatly kindled against the man; and he said to Nathan, [As] YHWH liveth, the man that hath done this [thing] shall surely die:
2 Samuel 12:1-5
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
The messiah is the man who will rule Israel during the idyllic messianic age, when there will be world peace between the nations. Obviously, this person has not yet come.
The messiah has nothing to do with our sins. If I sin and repent, God will forgive me. That's really all that is needed.
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
Not necessarily. Condemnation could precede repentance.
The purpose of the righteous servant was knowledge and healing, the remedy of repentance was already available.
AdamjEdgar
Active Member
You are joking right?
David asks for Uriah to be sent to the front line to be killed. Do you think that Uriah knew the real reason why? Would you not agree that it s blatantly obvious to us as readers that Uriah was lied too at the behest of the king and that the entire affair was exactly that...dishonest?
you know why i can categorically state...you are 100% wrong on this and so is your entire denomination (or should i say sect)?
Matthew was Jew was he not? Now given he was an ancient jew, he was far closer to the original faith than any modern jew is...especially youirself.
How do you explain that an ancient jew, a man who was clearly rather intelligent given his profession, a person heavily influenced by accepted Jewish faith 2,000 years ago, wrote the following Jewish belief concerning the messiah...
and note, what Matthew wrote is a direct reference to Isaiah 7:10-16 and Micah 5:1-6 (which i shall also quote below)
Matthew 1: 20...the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. 21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. 22Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, 23Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Isaiah 7-10 10Moreover the LORD spake again unto Ahaz, saying, 11Ask thee a sign of the LORD thy God; ask it either in the depth, or in the height above. 12But Ahaz said, I will not ask, neither will I tempt the LORD. 13And he said, Hear ye now, O house of David; Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will ye weary my God also? 14Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. 15Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good. 16For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.
Micah5: 2But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting...8And the remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles in the midst of many people as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep:
Are you truly going to make the claim that Matthew had no idea what Isaiah or Micah meant when they made prophesies concerning the Messiah and that Matthew wasnt documenting the fulfillment of that claim in His Gospel?
You see no matter what the Tanach may say, we all know that one of the reasons why this version of the bible was dropped in favour of the Septuigent by quite a number of scholars was because even in 400B.C and certainly by 2nd century A.D (when a lot of scholars claim it was finally ratified as Jewish cannon) that version of the sacred scriptures was already severely corrupted by a race of people that had become so self focused and legalistic, they began to change their own writings to suit that corrupt and evil lifestyle...they then killed on the cross the very person whom they had longed for in the many promises regarding salvation
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I wasn't sure who was Matthew or why you were bringing him up at first, but then I read the rest of your post.
Matthew the disciple of Jesus, if he existed, was a Jew. Further than that, he practiced second Temple Judaism. That means he was keeping the Covenant between God and Israel. That's what Judaism has always been.
But clearly you are also under the impression that this Matthew wrote the gospel of Matthew. That is not the case. We don't know the names of the men who wrote the gospel, but none of them were Matthew. There may have been as many as four sources for the book of Matthew: the Gospel of Mark, and three lost sources: Q, M, and L.
I see no relationship between these three passages. Naming someone Jesus is quite different from naming him Emanuel.
I think the church from the time of the apostles to present day does not have a sound understanding of the Tanakh (OT). They are forever taking verses out of context to pretend they are messianic prophecies.
I'm aware that the Christian church adopted the Septuagint for their text. However, you have to understand that
1. There are books in the Septuagint that are not part of Jewish canon
2. The LXX is a very poor translation. Indeed the verse you quote above is a mistranslation: The Hebrew doesn't say that a virgin will conceive (future tense) but that a young woman is with child (present tense).
Your hatred of Jews is noted. Any more slams against Jews you wanna make while you are at it? Go ahead, get it all out of your system.
AdamjEdgar
Active Member
I think its time that we have you explain your own understanding of your faith regarding a significant Jewish practise...the Sanctuary Service.
I ask that you briefly explain the following for all of us:
1. Passover
2. Unleavened Bread
3. First Fruits
4. Feast of Weeks
5. Feast of Trumpets
6. Day of Atonement
7. Feast of Tabernacles
As an individual who follows Jewish tradition, what are the above exactly and what does each one represent?
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IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
My faith is pretty simple. I'm a Jew. I practice Judaism. My observance level is that of the Conservative movement, though I admit my theology is pretty liberal. IOW, I eat kosher, keep the shabbat, celebrate the holy days you have listed above, etc. But the ideas in my head tend to be pretty grounded in science and modern historical techniques.
I am not really into novel length posts. If you want to pick one of your listed Holy Days, we can talk about it. Which one would you like?
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
So, name calling is all fine & dandy with you? I would think that as an adult you would have outgrown that but it's obvious that I'm wrong.
AdamjEdgar
Active Member
Just give a single line description of each one.
For example, am I wrong that the Passover came from the Exodus out of Egypt where the angel of death killed all firstborn of those who did not do as God commanded and sprinkle blood on their doorposts that night...a literal historical event according to Judaism?
Did not the disciples, who were jews still understand and celebrate this solemn event? So they understood the meaning and significance of the Passover and obeyed the tradition to keep it?
AdamjEdgar
Active Member
thats a rather unsubstantiated and in fact just plain wrong claim given the facts below
1 Samuel 11: 2 One evening David got up from his bed and walked around on the roof of the palace. From the roof he saw a woman bathing. The woman was very beautiful, 3 and David sent someone to find out about her. The man said, “She is Bathsheba, the daughter of Eliam and the wife of Uriah the Hittite.” 4 Then David sent messengers to get her. She came to him, and he slept with her. (Now she was purifying herself from her monthly uncleanness.) Then she went back home. 5 The woman conceived and sent word to David, saying, “I am pregnant.”
6 So David sent this word to Joab: “Send me Uriah the Hittite.” And Joab sent him to David. 7 When Uriah came to him, David asked him how Joab was, how the soldiers were and how the war was going. 8 Then David said to Uriah, “Go down to your house and wash your feet.” So Uriah left the palace, and a gift from the king was sent after him. 9 But Uriah slept at the entrance to the palace with all his master’s servants and did not go down to his house.
10 David was told, “Uriah did not go home.” So he asked Uriah, “Haven’t you just come from a military campaign? Why didn’t you go home?”
11 Uriah said to David, “The ark and Israel and Judah are staying in tents,[a] and my commander Joab and my lord’s men are camped in the open country. How could I go to my house to eat and drink and make love to my wife? As surely as you live, I will not do such a thing!”
12 Then David said to him, “Stay here one more day, and tomorrow I will send you back.” So Uriah remained in Jerusalem that day and the next. 13 At David’s invitation, he ate and drank with him, and David made him drunk. But in the evening Uriah went out to sleep on his mat among his master’s servants; he did not go home.
14 In the morning David wrote a letter to Joab and sent it with Uriah. 15 In it he wrote, “Put Uriah out in front where the fighting is fiercest. Then withdraw from him so he will be struck down and die.”
16 So while Joab had the city under siege, he put Uriah at a place where he knew the strongest defenders were. 17 When the men of the city came out and fought against Joab, some of the men in David’s army fell; moreover, Uriah the Hittite died.
If the above passage is not a description of a man be very deceitful...
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Adam, like I said, I don't do long posts, nor do I read long posts. If you want to have a conversation with me, you will need to narrow the focus of your questions.
Since you bring up Passover, I will treat that as the topic.
The holiday of Passover is meant to be a reminder that God brought us out of slavery in Egypt with a mighty hand. That's pretty much it. There is nothing about Passover that is prophetic or symbolic of something else.
The Nazarenes were Jewish believers in Jesus who continued to practice Judaism. They were centered in Jerusalem under the leadership of James. However, this early version of Christianity did not survive. The version of Christianity that survived was the Pauline version, which I sometimes refer to as proto-Catholic/Orthodox. This version does not celebrate any of the Jewish holy days, including Passover.